You can just go to a restaurant and order the cheapest thing on the menu while indulging once in a while. Or you could just not even order anything. If your friends or colleagues make a stink about it, then it's likely they're shallow people who you'd not want to associate with anyhow.
You can't not stop caring what others think. We all care what other's think to varying degrees. No one is completely unself-conscious. Also, having a social life that's limited and that lacks closeness is bad for one's mental and physical health. Just keep in mind that mental and physical health are the most important assets a person can have and those assets can not be optimally obtained by being a social recluse. You have to make certain sacrifices. Also be discerning about whom you associate with. The handful that are close to you should share much of your values and accept you for who you are. I'm sure you can find a handful of people who accept you in spite of being an outlier. It is also possible that you are overly self-conscious and people don't care about your being different as much as you think.
Maybe move to a weird city like Portland,Or or Austin, Tx? Or move to one of the many bohemian hoods around the US?
How to stop caring what other people think, when that's how you're wired
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aussierogue
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:02 pm
I think this discussion is a part of a bigger issue for many ERE people. And that is one of "status anxiety". There is a famous book from Alain de Botton by the same title.
The issue is subconsciously all of us desire status. Some of us are aware of this but most of us use excuses for the reasons we buy large cars, houses, get degrees etc et.
ITS NORMAL and without status people feel weak, not heard and ostracised.
So how does a frugal ere GET STATUS without compromising the greater ideal...
Jacob by way of this blog has achieved some status. He is the guru and has a famous blog. Peaple listen to him and don;t think he is a overtly weird because he has 'followers'.
Similarly i have been able to achieve some acceptance because for 20 years i had some trappings of status. High paying and titled job, live in nice house, regular holidays, A1 schooling etc So somehow society will be more lenient to someone in my position although trust me it is still hard. Most still think 'there must be something wrong" that i have chosen to "drop out".
So i cant imagine some of the social pressures of starting from scratch. trying to be ere when many in society have had a chance to pigeon hole you (and you yourself subconsciously) as having beed successful and hence achieved status.
That is why i think successful ere's need to talk about it.
Needs to be normailised and admired
Preaching people.....heleulya!
The issue is subconsciously all of us desire status. Some of us are aware of this but most of us use excuses for the reasons we buy large cars, houses, get degrees etc et.
ITS NORMAL and without status people feel weak, not heard and ostracised.
So how does a frugal ere GET STATUS without compromising the greater ideal...
Jacob by way of this blog has achieved some status. He is the guru and has a famous blog. Peaple listen to him and don;t think he is a overtly weird because he has 'followers'.
Similarly i have been able to achieve some acceptance because for 20 years i had some trappings of status. High paying and titled job, live in nice house, regular holidays, A1 schooling etc So somehow society will be more lenient to someone in my position although trust me it is still hard. Most still think 'there must be something wrong" that i have chosen to "drop out".
So i cant imagine some of the social pressures of starting from scratch. trying to be ere when many in society have had a chance to pigeon hole you (and you yourself subconsciously) as having beed successful and hence achieved status.
That is why i think successful ere's need to talk about it.
Needs to be normailised and admired
Preaching people.....heleulya!
Just want to drop in and say I found this thread very interesting. I don't have much to add other than sort of an INTJ joke:
When you're trying to fit in with everyone else, the best you can possibly achieve is mediocrity.
As someone who has very little concern for what other people think of me**, my advice might not be good, but here's some anyways...
(**at least about to the way I spend money, socialize, etc... Not only do I not care what people think of me, I spend near zero time ever even thinking about what others might think of me),
One thing I would suggest is to have a conversation with one or two of your close friends about this subject. Ask them how they feel if you say that you would like to go to dinner but don't want to spend the money, or how they would feel if you went along but didn't spend money. You might find out that they don't care at all. They might be relieved by the question, having felt the same exact thing as you at times. Or they might say it would make you seem a little bit different (more interesting). I'd think that from your standpoint, the worst they could do is confirm the way you already feel.
I understand that your struggle is because that is the way YOU feel, and maybe not necessarily that you worry so much about how they really do feel about it (?), but just asking a couple questions of your closest friends might change the way you feel a bit
When you're trying to fit in with everyone else, the best you can possibly achieve is mediocrity.
As someone who has very little concern for what other people think of me**, my advice might not be good, but here's some anyways...
(**at least about to the way I spend money, socialize, etc... Not only do I not care what people think of me, I spend near zero time ever even thinking about what others might think of me),
One thing I would suggest is to have a conversation with one or two of your close friends about this subject. Ask them how they feel if you say that you would like to go to dinner but don't want to spend the money, or how they would feel if you went along but didn't spend money. You might find out that they don't care at all. They might be relieved by the question, having felt the same exact thing as you at times. Or they might say it would make you seem a little bit different (more interesting). I'd think that from your standpoint, the worst they could do is confirm the way you already feel.
I understand that your struggle is because that is the way YOU feel, and maybe not necessarily that you worry so much about how they really do feel about it (?), but just asking a couple questions of your closest friends might change the way you feel a bit
One thing that has worked for me is to take on more of a leadership role in social settings. By taking on more leadership I move the group onto less expensive activities that are of more interest to me. I don't sell them on their cheapness, but on something else that is more socially acceptable. It does require a bit more energy on my part, but it lets me have a social life on my terms and people focus less on how I am different. I invite people over to my place more and make a big pot of something tasty but cheap. The occasional time when socially I am required to go out, my friends often feel duty bound to pick up the tab since I went to the trouble of cooking them a nice meal and they don't have the time/energy to return the favor. I do things like organize fitness related outings, hikes, flower/bird watching, library meetup, board game nights, or other meetups at low cost venues. While it goes a bit against the I (INTJ) part of my nature, I find it less socially awkward than fitting into other people idea of a good time. I think I am doing better at the social thing now than I used to since it is on my terms. Before I would be much more inclined to just stay at home and be more socially isolated.
@firefighterjeff: LOL! Not too nosy. I (K, the wife) made the ID "gandk" hoping that my husband (G) would use it to post occasionally too, as we talk about ER, FIRE and ERE all the time. He has yet to post. He is very ERE-oriented -- is actually the "nerd" of the two of us, as Dave Ramsey would say -- but he's an ESTJ, so the issue is that online forums don't really interest him... he wants to interact with people in person, not online. So far all the posts are mine. If he ever gets around to posting instead of just standing over my shoulder offering commentary as I type, I will have him identify himself so there's no confusion.
@aussierogue: You're right about status anxiety! And it's worse because the underlying topic is money, and SO many people think discussing money is rude. I grew up in Appalachia, the poorest place in the United States, and one of the first lessons I learned was that I should NEVER, under any circumstances, talk about money. My parents were upper-middle class and we lived significantly below our means in order to fit in with the majority of our community. I was taught that talking about money could lead to being ostracized, robbed or worse. (ERE as a survival technique.)
Fast forward to today, and G and I live in a city in the American midwest. I'm 38 and looking forward to RE. I have excitement about our path toward financial independence, and questions about the best possible methods of getting there, and the normal desire to share my life with people who matter to me. Yet there isn't a single person besides my spouse with whom I can sit down and discuss FIRE topics without the fear of giving offense and I am PETRIFIED of being shunned. Layered on top of the common-sense realization that others may see us as extreme is all my childhood anxiety about money and how others may potentially perceive my financial situation and the effect it may have.
So I find myself spending money in order to fall in line when what I'd rather do (read: what I fantasize about doing instead) is saying to my coworkers, "You know what, guys? I'm currently about 8 years from retirement. I'm on track to retire at age 46. Cool, huh? And that's in spite of the fact that G and I started saving late and have 8 children between us, 6 of whom are still living at home! Although age 46 would be a great achievement, I might be able to get there at 45 or even 44 if I don't eat out at $30 sushi restaurants so often. In fact, why don't you guys go grab some take-out and come back, and then we can all eat together in the break room while I explain how this stuff works so you can do it too?"
The really ironic thing is that I know many of them will be dying for me to explain all this once I retire and am no longer around.
EDIT: I really appreciate all these responses. It helps to know we're not alone!
@aussierogue: You're right about status anxiety! And it's worse because the underlying topic is money, and SO many people think discussing money is rude. I grew up in Appalachia, the poorest place in the United States, and one of the first lessons I learned was that I should NEVER, under any circumstances, talk about money. My parents were upper-middle class and we lived significantly below our means in order to fit in with the majority of our community. I was taught that talking about money could lead to being ostracized, robbed or worse. (ERE as a survival technique.)
Fast forward to today, and G and I live in a city in the American midwest. I'm 38 and looking forward to RE. I have excitement about our path toward financial independence, and questions about the best possible methods of getting there, and the normal desire to share my life with people who matter to me. Yet there isn't a single person besides my spouse with whom I can sit down and discuss FIRE topics without the fear of giving offense and I am PETRIFIED of being shunned. Layered on top of the common-sense realization that others may see us as extreme is all my childhood anxiety about money and how others may potentially perceive my financial situation and the effect it may have.
So I find myself spending money in order to fall in line when what I'd rather do (read: what I fantasize about doing instead) is saying to my coworkers, "You know what, guys? I'm currently about 8 years from retirement. I'm on track to retire at age 46. Cool, huh? And that's in spite of the fact that G and I started saving late and have 8 children between us, 6 of whom are still living at home! Although age 46 would be a great achievement, I might be able to get there at 45 or even 44 if I don't eat out at $30 sushi restaurants so often. In fact, why don't you guys go grab some take-out and come back, and then we can all eat together in the break room while I explain how this stuff works so you can do it too?"
The really ironic thing is that I know many of them will be dying for me to explain all this once I retire and am no longer around.
EDIT: I really appreciate all these responses. It helps to know we're not alone!
Part of the answer is strategy. if you go out for drinks, make one a beer, the rest lime and water.
Or if you go out for a meal have half a buffalo wedges, or half a nachos and eat dessert (its often cheaper) or have a main and a coffee instead of dessert. Or share the bread with someone and have a dessert.
And have something to eat before you go out.
Drinking - If everyone is buying rounds, get there early and drink slowly, they'll soon learn.
And if you feel you need to buy something, but a bowl of chips to share, it's cheaper than a round.
Agree with vireoes, A pot luck meal or barbeque works. (everyone brings salad and meat or dessert and meat)
Any other ideas for social solutions?
And eight children - they'd have to be pretty dumb to not understand you're economising.
Or if you go out for a meal have half a buffalo wedges, or half a nachos and eat dessert (its often cheaper) or have a main and a coffee instead of dessert. Or share the bread with someone and have a dessert.
And have something to eat before you go out.
Drinking - If everyone is buying rounds, get there early and drink slowly, they'll soon learn.
And if you feel you need to buy something, but a bowl of chips to share, it's cheaper than a round.
Agree with vireoes, A pot luck meal or barbeque works. (everyone brings salad and meat or dessert and meat)
Any other ideas for social solutions?
And eight children - they'd have to be pretty dumb to not understand you're economising.
I'm an INFP, so I may not belong here..or anywhere for that matter 
But I too struggle with all of the things in this thread. It's hard to be different, even when normal is just a fiction. I look around at my work and no-one is the prototypical normal office worker..yet they all are..and so am I. They each are doing what's important to them based on their upbringing, social adaptation, etc. And everyone varies to a degree.
I try to keep that in mind at all times and view people from what I can imagine it to look like living out of their brains/eyes. What I see is that they are just as insecure and seeking of approval as I am.
The only difference may be that I've started a process of thinking recursively about all this and therefore may be able to step outside of that insecurity at some point. We'll see..still a work in progress.
I find a good grounding in some concepts of reality construction and non-dual thinking, zen, and the like, can go a long ways towards flipping the switch on conventional stuff. It makes it easier to deal with most people and see through the pretense..but it can also insert a layer of frustration when you struggle to hold that view with people you know more closely: spouse, parents, etc. Again, still a work in progress.
Complete, but improving towards further harmony.
But I too struggle with all of the things in this thread. It's hard to be different, even when normal is just a fiction. I look around at my work and no-one is the prototypical normal office worker..yet they all are..and so am I. They each are doing what's important to them based on their upbringing, social adaptation, etc. And everyone varies to a degree.
I try to keep that in mind at all times and view people from what I can imagine it to look like living out of their brains/eyes. What I see is that they are just as insecure and seeking of approval as I am.
The only difference may be that I've started a process of thinking recursively about all this and therefore may be able to step outside of that insecurity at some point. We'll see..still a work in progress.
I find a good grounding in some concepts of reality construction and non-dual thinking, zen, and the like, can go a long ways towards flipping the switch on conventional stuff. It makes it easier to deal with most people and see through the pretense..but it can also insert a layer of frustration when you struggle to hold that view with people you know more closely: spouse, parents, etc. Again, still a work in progress.
Complete, but improving towards further harmony.