How should we handle merging (or not) finances when one spouse has lots of liabilities? Here's a tricky situation with some components many EREers will have to face. Please share your thoughts!
My wife is generally frugal, a hard and conscientious worker, and a reasonable financial partner. I will likely always have significantly higher earning power than she will, but she’ll do okay. In a vacuum, I would be okay with merging our finances. However, in addition to having less earning potential than I do, she has three big liabilities that I need to consider:
1) Huge student loan debt (six figures). (I knew it when I married her, I’m glad she got the education she did, and I know I’ll have to contribute to paying them off one way or another, but the loans are still a bummer!)
2) She wants to spend at least a few years as a stay-at-home mom when we have kids. (This is okay with me too, but by definition this will shift even more financial responsibility onto me.)
3) She doesn’t realize it yet, but my wife is likely to want “us” to provide some financial support for her father. She is incredibly close to her father, who is a financial train-wreck. (He is in his 60s with no retirement savings, no savings of any kind, a huge mortgage, home equity loans, car loans, huge student loans, huge credit card debt, and big spending habits. And now he's starting to talk about retirement, which demonstrates just how out of touch with his own financial reality he is.) The interest on his debts will start to overwhelm him, his standard of living will go down significantly, and he will inevitably come to us asking for financial support at some point. He will see his predicament as the result of unforeseeable bad luck, rather than as the entirely foreseeable result of living beyond his means and racking up debt at his age. My wife will have a hard time seeing his financial suffering while we have a big nest egg.
Frankly, I resent the guy's reckless behavior, and don't want to spend my life energy (in the form of savings or income) bailing him out. And, given that I’m already committed to major financial support for his daughter’s living expenses and debt repayments, I feel even less inclined to take on any liabilities related to her father’s reckless and stupid financial behavior. I want to be a generous and good provider, but I need to draw the line somewhere. I’m happy taking care of her, but not happy hitching my wagon to her financial train wreck of a father.
Given these liabilities, I am wondering how to best structure our financial lives. (We are recently married, and no permanent decisions have yet been made about how to structure our finances.)
I could pay off her six-figure student loans with my nest egg, which would be one of the best investments we could make (effectively a guaranteed annual return, every single year for what would have been the life of the loans, of around 8%, with no down years, no risk, and no tax. Part of me thinks I should do that. I’m effectively on the hook for a lot of that money anyway, because she simply can’t make enough to contribute to our shared living expenses and debt service simultaneously. So maybe I should just pay more now to reduce the interest burden?
However, there are a few potential downsides of doing that.
1) This debt is not officially my legal liability. If we ever got divorced (hopefully not), the debt would remain her individual liability. If I pay the debt, I will in effect have transferred a massive amount of my life energy to her (total savings from around 5 years of hard work). If we then ever got divorced and I didn’t somehow get "credit" for this expense in any divorce settlement, I will have made a mistake.
2) Some part of me thinks that having her in debt provides some insurance against her wanting to spend our money bailing out our father. If she’s debt free and sees our nest egg building up, it will be hard for her to see her dad’s standard of living start to painfully implode. She’ll want to send him money. Whereas if she still has her own debts, she might be more reluctant to want us to bail him out, and he might be more reluctant to ask.
So I guess I really have a few questions:
1) Should I pay off my wife’s debt?
2) If I do, can I get credit for doing so in any future divorce settlement?
3) Is there any way I can structure our finances to avoid having to bail out her dad?
4) How should I think about merged vs. shared finances in this situation?
Pay wife's debts? Support her family members? How to manage?
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jennypenny
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Is there such a thing as a post-nup? (not a joke) Whatever you work out you should try and get it in writing.
1. Why rush to pay off her debt while she's working?
2. I think it depends on your state.
3. There is no need to change how you manage your finances. Just make it clear to her that he's not your dependent. We've run into this a couple of times. We've agreed that if it's an emergency situation (my sis was hospitalized, my brother and his wife lost their jobs at the same time) then we'll discuss possibly helping them for a bit (which we've done). When it comes to systemic financial problems (SIL pays for cleaning lady and lots of personal extras but then couldn't afford to fix her well) we say no.
4. This is tricky. We have merged finances and it has worked out for us. If you merge them though, you end up on the hook for everything. On the other hand, if you keep them separate you end up trying to quantify the intangibles (like raising kids--the going rate for daycare doesn't really equate to a mom at home with her own children). Maybe a blend of the two?
1. Why rush to pay off her debt while she's working?
2. I think it depends on your state.
3. There is no need to change how you manage your finances. Just make it clear to her that he's not your dependent. We've run into this a couple of times. We've agreed that if it's an emergency situation (my sis was hospitalized, my brother and his wife lost their jobs at the same time) then we'll discuss possibly helping them for a bit (which we've done). When it comes to systemic financial problems (SIL pays for cleaning lady and lots of personal extras but then couldn't afford to fix her well) we say no.
4. This is tricky. We have merged finances and it has worked out for us. If you merge them though, you end up on the hook for everything. On the other hand, if you keep them separate you end up trying to quantify the intangibles (like raising kids--the going rate for daycare doesn't really equate to a mom at home with her own children). Maybe a blend of the two?
A six-figure student loan?? That must have been some education it bought! And yet, you'll likely have SIGNIFICANTLY higher earnings than she EVER will! (well..assuming you're not making a few hundred thousands an year of course)
hmm...in a way it's not fair that people (kids mostly) are expected to make this huge financial decision at a very young age, when most of 'em haven't had one taste of debt ,of a comparable magnitude, before, or its pain, and mostly don't have a thorough theoretical understanding of it at least, thanks to the 'education' they've had until then..which speaks much for the education system itself, more of which brand of education is what this debt is taken on for.
hmm...in a way it's not fair that people (kids mostly) are expected to make this huge financial decision at a very young age, when most of 'em haven't had one taste of debt ,of a comparable magnitude, before, or its pain, and mostly don't have a thorough theoretical understanding of it at least, thanks to the 'education' they've had until then..which speaks much for the education system itself, more of which brand of education is what this debt is taken on for.
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jennypenny
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Re: student loan--A simple 4 year stint at our state college (including room and board and books) would run about $100,000. I'm not saying it's the best route, but I wouldn't consider someone foolish for choosing to finance a state college education. And if it's in a field in demand, at least you're always employable even if you don't make a huge salary. It's costly but not the worst decision a 18YO can make 
I may be a bit of a contrarian here on this topic, but here is my two-cent worth. Take it as you wish, and adapt it to your own situation...
My wife also had student loans, although not as much as yours, and she has been staying at home for 8+ years (ironically, she never made much use of her expensive education, in the traditional sense of the word "use"). So, most of my expenses are related to paying for that choice. Technically, I have been transferring a huge amount of life energy and money to her. Without that transfer (not to mention the kids), I would have been FI several years ago. I am still striving to have partial FI, etc., but with a different perspective.
Most importantly, though, I have no regrets for doing it. I am very happy to continue doing it, and I think that's (part of) what marriage is about. I don't have pre-, post-, or while-nup agreement with my wife. While I recognize it may not work for everybody, if you are ready to commit yourself entirely to the other person, unconditionally, you get so much more out of it. Same for having kids. If you start measuring what you are giving each other and what you get in return, you go down a very slippery slope, because there will always be one giving more than the other at any given point in time, and I am afraid you will always be disappointed.
I don't have your problem #3 yet, but it actually may be coming at some point in the near future. Same thing -- I will take care of her parents. Now, I agree with JennyPenny (and others) that you are not responsible to pay for your father-in-law's unnecessary expenses. I am also not encouraging anybody to make irresponsible choices (a six-figure student loan seems like it is), but, after the fact, you are in it together
All the best
My wife also had student loans, although not as much as yours, and she has been staying at home for 8+ years (ironically, she never made much use of her expensive education, in the traditional sense of the word "use"). So, most of my expenses are related to paying for that choice. Technically, I have been transferring a huge amount of life energy and money to her. Without that transfer (not to mention the kids), I would have been FI several years ago. I am still striving to have partial FI, etc., but with a different perspective.
Most importantly, though, I have no regrets for doing it. I am very happy to continue doing it, and I think that's (part of) what marriage is about. I don't have pre-, post-, or while-nup agreement with my wife. While I recognize it may not work for everybody, if you are ready to commit yourself entirely to the other person, unconditionally, you get so much more out of it. Same for having kids. If you start measuring what you are giving each other and what you get in return, you go down a very slippery slope, because there will always be one giving more than the other at any given point in time, and I am afraid you will always be disappointed.
I don't have your problem #3 yet, but it actually may be coming at some point in the near future. Same thing -- I will take care of her parents. Now, I agree with JennyPenny (and others) that you are not responsible to pay for your father-in-law's unnecessary expenses. I am also not encouraging anybody to make irresponsible choices (a six-figure student loan seems like it is), but, after the fact, you are in it together
All the best
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LiquidSapphire
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The other thread you started on this topic had some good feedback on it with regards to the dad.
It is possible to craft a post-nuptual agreement, definitely do this with lawyers, no sense in drafting something that won't hold up in court in the end.
I'll be following the thread; my current serious boyfriend has an underwater house and $60,000 in student loans that I've been mulling over. I came to the conclusion that if we ever married I'd pay off 1/2 of the mortgage for a 1/2 interest in the property and also help with the loans as much as reasonable. In the end for me the final bill could be as high as $135,000. I have had similar thoughts though, in that I will insist on a pre-nup of some kind to somehow insure credit for paying off the student loans at least, but I don't know if this is even possible/legal; I haven't talked to any lawyers. With the amount of anxiety you have about this, sounds like it would be worth an hour's legal fees to go talk to a lawyer in your state about this.
It is possible to craft a post-nuptual agreement, definitely do this with lawyers, no sense in drafting something that won't hold up in court in the end.
I'll be following the thread; my current serious boyfriend has an underwater house and $60,000 in student loans that I've been mulling over. I came to the conclusion that if we ever married I'd pay off 1/2 of the mortgage for a 1/2 interest in the property and also help with the loans as much as reasonable. In the end for me the final bill could be as high as $135,000. I have had similar thoughts though, in that I will insist on a pre-nup of some kind to somehow insure credit for paying off the student loans at least, but I don't know if this is even possible/legal; I haven't talked to any lawyers. With the amount of anxiety you have about this, sounds like it would be worth an hour's legal fees to go talk to a lawyer in your state about this.
Honestly, kudos to you all for taking on such a financial burden in the name of love.
I think growing up watching one parent repeatedly screw another parent over financially had me carefully consider who I dated and became serious with. I subconsciously (and now consciously, i guess) avoided guys with massive debt of any kind (except car, housing and business loans).
Plus, the city I live in (Toronto), both single men and women seem date and marry strategically, that is, joining forces with a partner who comes with assets, not liabilities. Yuppie men and women here are pretty gold-diggerish/snobbish. It's kind of brutal.
A couple of my girl friends realized that thanks to these modern times they're pretty unmarriable until they get their debts under control, so that's what they're doing.
It's amazing to me that there are still parts of the States and Canada where dudes will swoop in like that, with such optimistic devotion. I applaud that
If you guys are young and not in a rush to have kids, maybe she can focus her income 100% on debt repayment or get a 2nd job for a year or two. A six-figure debt and a careless father-in-law is a LOT of slack to pick up. Unless you make tons and tons of money (six figures), in which case, go ahead, bail her out.
I think growing up watching one parent repeatedly screw another parent over financially had me carefully consider who I dated and became serious with. I subconsciously (and now consciously, i guess) avoided guys with massive debt of any kind (except car, housing and business loans).
Plus, the city I live in (Toronto), both single men and women seem date and marry strategically, that is, joining forces with a partner who comes with assets, not liabilities. Yuppie men and women here are pretty gold-diggerish/snobbish. It's kind of brutal.
A couple of my girl friends realized that thanks to these modern times they're pretty unmarriable until they get their debts under control, so that's what they're doing.
It's amazing to me that there are still parts of the States and Canada where dudes will swoop in like that, with such optimistic devotion. I applaud that
If you guys are young and not in a rush to have kids, maybe she can focus her income 100% on debt repayment or get a 2nd job for a year or two. A six-figure debt and a careless father-in-law is a LOT of slack to pick up. Unless you make tons and tons of money (six figures), in which case, go ahead, bail her out.
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LiquidSapphire
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@palmera-
Good point... I try to "help" people too much sometimes. Yeah, for the record, he has no expectation that I would help him in any way, he is completely ready to assume 100% responsibility but if it's someone I love enough to marry obviously I hate to see him struggle. The interest rate on the student loan is scary high (9%) and so it would just make financial sense to get rid of it (consolidation doesn't seem possible) and the second mortgage (also at 9%, he can't refinance independently, house is underwater by too much). The two loans are his highest interest rate loans that he's carrying and it's killer. $7K-$8K a year on just stupid interest! He's on his own for the rest of it though, he should be able to manage it once he has some breathing room.
Good point... I try to "help" people too much sometimes. Yeah, for the record, he has no expectation that I would help him in any way, he is completely ready to assume 100% responsibility but if it's someone I love enough to marry obviously I hate to see him struggle. The interest rate on the student loan is scary high (9%) and so it would just make financial sense to get rid of it (consolidation doesn't seem possible) and the second mortgage (also at 9%, he can't refinance independently, house is underwater by too much). The two loans are his highest interest rate loans that he's carrying and it's killer. $7K-$8K a year on just stupid interest! He's on his own for the rest of it though, he should be able to manage it once he has some breathing room.
We've had these discussions many times ourselves. Here's my perspective:
As long as you're even occasionally thinking to yourself, "If we divorce someday..." I would personally advise against paying her student loans. Although you are married, it's clear that you don't see yourselves as fully joined yet. More like a joint venture. And while you're looking at the math here, I doubt she is, so having a conversation with her about the math is likely to make you sound heartless to her and therefore devolve into a fight along the lines of, "You're trying to put a price tag on me/your love for me/my love for my dad."
If it were me, I'd come at it like this: "You know I have some savings sitting here. This savings is the result of about 5 years of my life and work. This money, and the work and sacrifice that it represents, are important to me. I love the idea of us combining our money because combining our money means combining our goals and I want to get closer to you. But before we do that, I want to get a clearer picture of what your opinions are on how we should spend money going forward. I want to make sure we're on the same page..." and then introduce the topics of her debt, her dad, and most importantly, her perceived level of personal responsibility to both of those. After you hear her out, I would say something like this to her: "My vision for our future as a family is [x]... and I want to know what you want for our future also" so she knows you're picturing your future WITH HER regardless of her financial opinions at present.
If you're not on the same page, go slowly. It's possible that time will move you closer to one another as you see where each other is coming from, so withdrawal today if she says something that conflicts with your opinions would be a bad idea.
It's not impossible that she could become a positive influence on her dad and begin to speak to him on the subject IF you guys can manage to get on the same page, and then her dad can see you two succeeding with money. You'll both have gained some moral authority on the subject in his eyes.
I would also tell her IF the subject eventually comes up (as gently as possible) that while you would be willing to consider paying for a professional financial adviser to help her dad sort out his finances, you aren't willing to simply send him money. You believe he needs to change his behavior going forward in order to clean up the underlying mess, and since neither you nor she have the background and experience to help him do that, sending him money only kicks the can down the road.
As long as you're even occasionally thinking to yourself, "If we divorce someday..." I would personally advise against paying her student loans. Although you are married, it's clear that you don't see yourselves as fully joined yet. More like a joint venture.
And while you're looking at the math here, I doubt she is, so having a conversation with her about the math is likely to make you sound heartless to her and therefore devolve into a fight along the lines of, "You're trying to put a price tag on me/your love for me/my love for my dad." If it were me, I'd come at it like this: "You know I have some savings sitting here. This savings is the result of about 5 years of my life and work. This money, and the work and sacrifice that it represents, are important to me. I love the idea of us combining our money because combining our money means combining our goals and I want to get closer to you. But before we do that, I want to get a clearer picture of what your opinions are on how we should spend money going forward. I want to make sure we're on the same page..." and then introduce the topics of her debt, her dad, and most importantly, her perceived level of personal responsibility to both of those. After you hear her out, I would say something like this to her: "My vision for our future as a family is [x]... and I want to know what you want for our future also" so she knows you're picturing your future WITH HER regardless of her financial opinions at present.
If you're not on the same page, go slowly. It's possible that time will move you closer to one another as you see where each other is coming from, so withdrawal today if she says something that conflicts with your opinions would be a bad idea.
It's not impossible that she could become a positive influence on her dad and begin to speak to him on the subject IF you guys can manage to get on the same page, and then her dad can see you two succeeding with money. You'll both have gained some moral authority on the subject in his eyes.
I would also tell her IF the subject eventually comes up (as gently as possible) that while you would be willing to consider paying for a professional financial adviser to help her dad sort out his finances, you aren't willing to simply send him money. You believe he needs to change his behavior going forward in order to clean up the underlying mess, and since neither you nor she have the background and experience to help him do that, sending him money only kicks the can down the road.
I would definitely not pay off your wifes loan; as you say its your wife's liability and your life savings. Divoices are often messy, and you could end up in an expensive legal fight to get the money back in a divorce settlement(if indeed you can). Its always best to plan for the worst case senario. Whilst your effectively paying off the loan in part now by helping her with living expenses, its always best to have money in the bank to fall back on.
Given the looming liability of her father's upcoming financial meltdown, I think its best for both of you to keep your finances as separate as possible. A clear vebal understanding between you and her, ideally backed up by a legal document, is best for you and your marriage.
In terms of any children you may have, you might want to look at trust funds, so any money you have set aside for them is protected from any father-in-law bailouts. And ensuring you both have watertight wills so if you were to die suddenly, your assetts would go to where you wanted them to go.(Not nice to think about, but really important for any children you might have)
Given the looming liability of her father's upcoming financial meltdown, I think its best for both of you to keep your finances as separate as possible. A clear vebal understanding between you and her, ideally backed up by a legal document, is best for you and your marriage.
In terms of any children you may have, you might want to look at trust funds, so any money you have set aside for them is protected from any father-in-law bailouts. And ensuring you both have watertight wills so if you were to die suddenly, your assetts would go to where you wanted them to go.(Not nice to think about, but really important for any children you might have)
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jennypenny
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@Jason--our state! Temple is only about $20K, but Happy Valley is up to $25K/year for everything. There are lower PS colleges in satellite counties, so you can get it down to about $15K if you want. Check your alma mater. I went to Elizabethtown and it's about $44K/year now. FWIW, I think Temple is one of the best values in the country (but not for everyone).
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George the original one
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1) Should I pay off my wife’s debt?
Yes. It's a drag on your family's finances, so it makes sense to remove that drag. Remember that you're pulling together in the harness now rather than trying to pull the burden by yourself.
I paid off my wife's car when she moved in (year or two before marriage). It just makes too much financial sense not to do so. Yes, I tracked how much I spent, but really never expect to need to collect on that money.
2) If I do, can I get credit for doing so in any future divorce settlement?
You can do a legal arrangement even after the marriage (coworker did this with a house she inheirited), but doing so will put a strain on your relationship.
3) Is there any way I can structure our finances to avoid having to bail out her dad?
Yes, but it may not hold up in the future. Some countries already make the children responsible for retired parents and I can see certain US states doing likewise. As a couple you two need to set the limits of your aid for her father.
In my case, if my mother lives much longer (she's 92 next month), she will run out of money. I (which means my wife since I'm the breadwinner) will be picking up the slack, if it happens. Her parents live off of an officer's pension, so they'll likely not outlive their finances, but I expect we'd help pick up any shortfall.
We have bailed out my sister and her brother when their financial situations were desperate. My sister lived with us for 6 months when she lost her home and we prepaid her brother's family electric bill after it was shut off in the winter.
4) How should I think about merged vs. shared finances in this situation?
Unless she has a strong independent streak, you should be sharing the money to put your family in the best financial position. That doesn't mean throwing all the bank accounts together, but it does mean abolishing debts that make no sense and agreeing when to spend money over the threshold of your combined sensibilities.
Yes. It's a drag on your family's finances, so it makes sense to remove that drag. Remember that you're pulling together in the harness now rather than trying to pull the burden by yourself.
I paid off my wife's car when she moved in (year or two before marriage). It just makes too much financial sense not to do so. Yes, I tracked how much I spent, but really never expect to need to collect on that money.
2) If I do, can I get credit for doing so in any future divorce settlement?
You can do a legal arrangement even after the marriage (coworker did this with a house she inheirited), but doing so will put a strain on your relationship.
3) Is there any way I can structure our finances to avoid having to bail out her dad?
Yes, but it may not hold up in the future. Some countries already make the children responsible for retired parents and I can see certain US states doing likewise. As a couple you two need to set the limits of your aid for her father.
In my case, if my mother lives much longer (she's 92 next month), she will run out of money. I (which means my wife since I'm the breadwinner) will be picking up the slack, if it happens. Her parents live off of an officer's pension, so they'll likely not outlive their finances, but I expect we'd help pick up any shortfall.
We have bailed out my sister and her brother when their financial situations were desperate. My sister lived with us for 6 months when she lost her home and we prepaid her brother's family electric bill after it was shut off in the winter.
4) How should I think about merged vs. shared finances in this situation?
Unless she has a strong independent streak, you should be sharing the money to put your family in the best financial position. That doesn't mean throwing all the bank accounts together, but it does mean abolishing debts that make no sense and agreeing when to spend money over the threshold of your combined sensibilities.
I still think it's crazy that *poof* just like that, you marry up, and suddenly you and your immediate family's debts go away!
I hope your wife (all of your wives, the lot of you) realize how lucky she is.
Also, as ugly, uncomfortable and gauche as it seems, all of you are asking yourselves and your partners the right questions now instead of going around with blinders on. I'm at the age now where divorces are popping up left, right and centre due to money issues (and failure to discuss it in time).
I hope your wife (all of your wives, the lot of you) realize how lucky she is.
Also, as ugly, uncomfortable and gauche as it seems, all of you are asking yourselves and your partners the right questions now instead of going around with blinders on. I'm at the age now where divorces are popping up left, right and centre due to money issues (and failure to discuss it in time).
FYI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postnuptial_agreement
What incentive does she have to sign an agreement after you're already married? It seems like bringing it up would only cause hard feelings.
At that interest rate, I wouldn't save. I would just pay it off. Can you consolidate to a lower interest rate?
Would she be eligible for Income-Based Repayment and/or Public Service Loan Forgiveness if you filed taxes separately? If that's the case, it might not benefit either of you to pay down her loan faster than her IBR payment, given that the loan would be forgiven after 10 or 25 years. The downside is uncertainties in future income and the penalty for filing taxes separately rather than jointly. If you do IBR, be careful if you consolidate to do it right.
In the best case, you could pull a MikeBOS. Consolidate to get a lower interest rate, just in case. Make the minimum payment while saving enough for both of you to retire. Retire, switch to IBR, and let the monthly payment drop to zero. After 25 years, the debt is forgiven. This depends on it being the right kind of loan, though. See ibrinfo.org.
@GandK
I like the idea of contributing to an errant relative's welfare by hiring a (fee-only) financial adviser rather than helping directly. It might help more to do it now rather than wait for when the SHTF.
My wife brought a similar debt into our marriage, and I don't expect her to help much to pay it off. It bugs me from time to time, but I've come to peace with it. Her interest rates are lower, though, and I don't have prodigal relatives, at least that I know of.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postnuptial_agreement
What incentive does she have to sign an agreement after you're already married? It seems like bringing it up would only cause hard feelings.
At that interest rate, I wouldn't save. I would just pay it off. Can you consolidate to a lower interest rate?
Would she be eligible for Income-Based Repayment and/or Public Service Loan Forgiveness if you filed taxes separately? If that's the case, it might not benefit either of you to pay down her loan faster than her IBR payment, given that the loan would be forgiven after 10 or 25 years. The downside is uncertainties in future income and the penalty for filing taxes separately rather than jointly. If you do IBR, be careful if you consolidate to do it right.
In the best case, you could pull a MikeBOS. Consolidate to get a lower interest rate, just in case. Make the minimum payment while saving enough for both of you to retire. Retire, switch to IBR, and let the monthly payment drop to zero. After 25 years, the debt is forgiven. This depends on it being the right kind of loan, though. See ibrinfo.org.
@GandK
I like the idea of contributing to an errant relative's welfare by hiring a (fee-only) financial adviser rather than helping directly. It might help more to do it now rather than wait for when the SHTF.
My wife brought a similar debt into our marriage, and I don't expect her to help much to pay it off. It bugs me from time to time, but I've come to peace with it. Her interest rates are lower, though, and I don't have prodigal relatives, at least that I know of.