Repairing relationships after 2020

How to explain ERE, arranging family matters
7Wannabe5
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Re: Repairing relationships after 2020

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Unfortunately, I am bored with threesomes, and I too easily get blackout level stoned on weed, so that just leaves pie. Would have to be a hella good pie.

IlliniDave
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Re: Repairing relationships after 2020

Post by IlliniDave »

sky wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:33 pm
It is more of a difference in core values than politics. I personally avoid political discussions if possible.
Oh, yikes. Okay. The reference to 2020 threw me. Disregard my attempt at being helpful as I once again come up clueless. :oops:

7Wb5, yeah, that people are far more alike than they like to believe is something I'm slowly learning.

ertyu
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Re: Repairing relationships after 2020

Post by ertyu »

sky wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:33 pm
It is more of a difference in core values than politics. I personally avoid political discussions if possible.
The only thing you can do is reflect on the ways in which you were the asshole, apologize for those, and listen to where others come from and respect their right to have different values. You can also tell others how the ways in which you think they were the asshole made you feel. You can wrap this in, "I care about you and our relationship which is why I'd like to talk through this," but in the end, there's only so much you can do when it comes to people who have no compassion for people outside their immediate bubble of "us" -- and sometimes, not even that. It's very important to approach "talk through this" not as a chance to make them see your way or the reasons why they're wrong, but as a chance to listen and to understand. It's unlikely you can repair your relationship with someone who doesn't feel listened to and understood.

If the person you are talking to is unwilling to allow you the same courtesy, you have two choices: grieving the relationship, and wholly or partially letting it go. As I have said elsewhere in this forum, it's not that you guys disagree, it's how you each behave when you disagree.

You're presenting the situation in very general terms. You don't owe us a complete account of what happened, but the fact that you do so makes it very likely that it was you who was the asshole, that others tried to talk to you about how they feel and why, and that you tried to argue them down instead of listening. I might be wrong, but usually whenever someone is skint on the details, it's to save their own ego. People who really want to resolve a situation would usually present a full account of what happened accompanied with some preliminary analysis of where they might have gone wrong. I am seeing none of that here. So.

I might, of course, be completely off the mark, in which case please disregard my comment.
Last edited by ertyu on Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Stahlmann
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Re: Repairing relationships after 2020

Post by Stahlmann »

No people, no cry :lol:

Learning to shut up in most cases, be present in own safe places.

I still try to unlearn to propose Scandinavian model as realistic solution to most world's problems, but it seems that most live in specific Stockholm/The Fox and the Grapes-syndrome. "Me good, they bad. I won't change anything in my behaviour, but gonna stay in thought process and ruin this relationship" - this emotion is a hella of drug.

At the end of the day, it boils down to some brain chemistry which is shaped circa at the age of 20-23 yrs old.

For smart and interested people prolly introducing the idea that on some level everything is a tool, especially in hand of 1%ers. if recipent thinks otherwise... (most likely) in reality it doesn't matter..., *plot twist* because they won't be there in their lifetime (especially by their standards) *Sthalmann tips fedora and leaves on black horse into the darkness*.

("It is difficult to get a man to understand class warfare, when his quality of life depends on his not understanding it".)

7Wannabe5
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Re: Repairing relationships after 2020

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

“IlliniDave” wrote: 7Wb5, yeah, that people are far more alike than they like to believe is something I'm slowly learning.
Word, Bro.

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Ego
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Re: Repairing relationships after 2020

Post by Ego »

The older I get the more I realize the amount of suffering caused by attempts to repair the irreparable, solve the unsolvable, organize the unruly and categorize the disordered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer

ertyu
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Re: Repairing relationships after 2020

Post by ertyu »

Thanks ego, needed this

Hristo Botev
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Re: Repairing relationships after 2020

Post by Hristo Botev »

sky wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:07 pm
Does anyone have advice on how to repair family relationships which have been damaged by partisan fanaticism?
Heard discussion of this opinion piece on a podcast during my morning walk, and thought I'd read it: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/202 ... n-villains. I know people on this forum have differing opinions as to the StrongTowns thing, but putting those aside, I think this article provides some really good answers to the OP's question. In part, the title says it all: "We Don't Live in a World of Cartoon Villains." From there, (1) expunge the vague, unspecified "They think" and "They want" from your political vocabulary; and (2) before voicing disagreement with someone's views, write down a description of what you think that person believes, and ask yourself if your description is written in language the other person would agree with.

Some people have stronger "conservative" impulses, and some have stronger "progressive" impulses--but I think almost all of us ultimately want the same things. Unfortunately, we live in a time where a whole lot of people make their livelihoods by turning an "impulse" into an identity, with incredibly effective tools to further the divides between these artificial "identities," and flame the fires of division between those identities.

To violate rule 1 above for a bit, just don't let "them" do it. Recognize that these media types (social, broadcast, bloggers, etc.), on both sides, are grifters and con artists, and we are collectively their marks. Just engage with people on an individual level, giving them the respect they are entitled to simply because they are human beings, possessing human dignity in no lesser or greater share than you do. Note I didn't say I should give the other person respect even if I don't think they deserve it--the other does deserve my respect, and if I don't see that then the problem lies with me.

Also, to paraphrase Ego's Serenity Prayer, recognize that you only have control over your own thoughts and actions, and your responses to the words/actions of others; you don't get to control what those others think, say, and do.

Riggerjack
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Re: Repairing relationships after 2020

Post by Riggerjack »

Part of the communication problem is on my side, because I have very little respect for the beliefs they are pushing. I am not willing to compromise my core values (anticorruption, election fair play, truth not lies, integrity of candidates) just to get along.
:lol: :lol: :lol: where did you see any of those values in display this year? If it was a major party or candidate, I suggest you look a bit closer.
Does anyone have advice on how to repair family relationships which have been damaged by partisan fanaticism?
Methinks step 1 could be to disengage from one's own partisan fanaticism. 8-)
Its not going to be easy to repair the relationships, if they even can be repaired.
I think the only real question is do you even want to? I mean,
a difference in core values
Is a nearly unbridgeable gap. Perhaps your life and theirs will improve with distance.

Yet the fact of the matter is that if one has a difference in core values with another American, one or both of you has chosen a small range of acceptance in a wide spectrum of values.

I mean, blue team or red is really just a preference statement of a narrow range of values within a narrow range of values we share as americans, within the narrow range of values inherited from western culture, which itself is a narrow subset of human values.

Looked at from this perspective, that unbridgeable gap looks more like a hairline crack. Which raises the question of are you really drawing a line in the sand, that shall not be crossed, or are you splitting hairs?

Perhaps you would be better served becoming more familiar with the true range of human values, and deciding for yourself which to adopt. You may look back with chagrin at opinions you held before your search. Or they could be stronger.

Myself, when I wandered this path, I found that not only was I overconfident in my opinion and the data supporting it, but that overconfidence blinded me to the legitimate fears and concerns expressed by "the other side". Look to the gun control or CC threads, to see what I am talking about.

Eventually, if one is persistent enough, one finds the propaganda from one's own side, and recognizes it for what it is.

Myself, that triggered some much bigger questions: "How long have I been some algorithm's b*tch?", "How and why did I allow this to happen?", and "This algo is feeding something within me, that I allowed this to continue this long, unabated. What is that, and am I better/happier for satisfying that part of me?"

But that is me. :oops:

What relationships you choose are up to you. Whether we are talking about people or algorithms, the relationship is a choice. I would suggest you consider carefully who and what you allow into your life.

Then act on that decision. Good luck! :D

jacob
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Re: Repairing relationships after 2020

Post by jacob »

I wrote a long text a few days ago. Then deleted it. But this is an important question, so I'll try again.

I'm beginning to get "it" not just intellectually but viscerally. The thing is, "it" doesn't affect most people so generally it's been easy to paper it over, say "it's just politics", and write off other people's experience as long as one is not personally affected.

Thus since I'm neither LGBT, brown or black, religious, poor, chronically sick, or into gun-culture, it's previously been easy for me to ignore "it" as well. However, this time, being an immigrant and having anti-immigrant policies being handed down from on high and giving people overall license to pursue extreme/hateful rhetoric, I can't say it hasn't affected me. Once one becomes a [minority] target, one has to rather oblivious, delusional, or thick-skinned not to take such attacks personal and let them affect personal relationships in a rather profound way.

I would not say this was on a survival level but it was certainly on Maslow's shelter-level in the sense that we considered leaving the country seriously enough to start selling stuff, getting financial matters in order, and spent many many hours looking as immigration policies in other countries during the past four years just in case it got worse or became the new normal. We have not been loud about these preparations.

My advice for giving advice therefore depends significantly on whether someone has been on the political "hit-list" (which I think is the case here) or whether disagreements have been of a more "philosophical" nature, like how "how high the titanium tax should be", and one has mostly been a bystander/spectator. To wit, federal politics don't really affect most Americans most of the time. This is also why most Americans don't really care. However, there are exceptions in the same that they do affect some people a lot of the times or a lot of people during some of the time. And in rare times, those two effects overlap and some get thrown under the bus or into cages. This was definitely such a time which is why voter turnout set a new record.

Due to my particular orientation, I'm mostly into "individually actionable" advice. As an immigrant, I have practically no say in national politics anyway. The only counter to "love it or leave" would be an appeal to higher values which the person may or may not hold. I can, however, react to politics as it's given.

On social media, I eventually unfollowed or snoozed ALL the meme-warriors. You post a meme, I snooze you for 30 days. You do it again, I unfollow you permanently. There was only a handful responsible for most of the shitposting. Typical Pareto law. So that was easy. Just doing that have immensely improved my social media experience. I already know who they are and what they stand for. I don't need constant reminders.

IRL (the "Thanksgiving problem") was subtly solved (where solutions were possible) by shifting the conversation to personal planning and thoughts about leaving the country rather than pushing back on their politics with the corresponding anti-politics. No elaborate explanations needed. Just hints about leaving [them] because of the political situation. This helped some realize that their preferred politics would have personal consequences: "Does that mean I wouldn't see you again?"... "Yeah, that's probably what it means unless you come visit us in X country." This caused at least some behavioral shifts.

Others just didn't "get it" or quickly forgot it and continued talking or posting shit. There's been very few (more distantly related) who flip-flopped and called for everybody to be nice after the election results became clear trying to escape both responsibilities and consequences for their recent behavior. I've basically written those people off. While relationships weren't broken, I just see no reason to try to build on those particular ones. It'll be up to them to mature in terms of moral behavior. I'll wait.

(It's important to realize that a lot of those who are talking shit are often just repeating talking points of their in-group w/o any real understanding of what they're supporting. Basically participating in sportsball politics because it's exciting to cheer as part of something bigger. They just want somewhere to belong and so they're repeating whatever it takes to belong. Only they don't really realize that not everybody in their relations belongs to their in-group circle. There's not much concern or awareness of the out-groupings. Basically Kegan3 being the most common behavior.)

I realize this is not a full solution to all the people in one's life one might have to deal with but those are the main ones I've dealt with.

chenda
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Re: Repairing relationships after 2020

Post by chenda »

@Jacob Was/is your concern largely the loss of legal residency ? I recall you mentioned that you have not ever experienced any personal hostility/harassment as an immigrant.

anesde
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Re: Repairing relationships after 2020

Post by anesde »

Hm, this feels a bit strange to post after Jacob’s thoughtful post but for what it’s worth I abide closer to HB and Riggerjack. My immediate family has vastly different political views than I do but I’ve come to the realisation that (a) they’re unlikely to change and (b) I have limited time left with them (age/health) and ultimately I don’t want to spend time arguing so we find common ground elsewhere. It may help that we don’t live near each other.

It’s an unpopular opinion these days (on both sides) but I don’t find that discussing politics with people who have entrenched beliefs tends to lead to any positive results.

I have made some headway on specific topics via calm rational points that appeal to logic, but that only goes so far (and crucially doesn’t lead to any actionable change). As Jacob said above most ppl just want to cheer on whatever group they feel a part of and that’s more emotional than anything else. Ultimately I don’t feel it’s worth the effort (insofar as it has a low likelihood of actionable change) and I’d rather spend time enjoying each other’s company vs debating.

To the OP’s question I would suggest if you really want to improve relations than first put aside any of your own inclinations and find common ground. If you can’t or don’t want to do that then don’t bother. Life is too short to hold grudges against family solely for political beliefs; however it’s equally too short to keep people in your life who are actively damaging your physical or mental well being.

Just make sure if you cut ties due to the latter it’s because it’s actually true, and not because you misread it being the former.

IlliniDave
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Re: Repairing relationships after 2020

Post by IlliniDave »

When I responded prior I was being as general and impersonal as possible. I think the person in the US who is not on someone's social/political hit-list is a rare individual. That's a necessary consequence of identity politics becoming a academically codified thing that has leached into politics/social rule-making, and the only demographic it is socially tolerable to demonize is mine. That certainly doesn't mean I "get it" when it comes to anyone else's situation. But most of them wouldn't get mine either. And that was a theme in my prior posts. If we get to the point we say to each other, "Only my perspective is valid" then there's not much good that will come between us. You know the saying the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Well, it's >> than any single one of the parts.

I don't shy away from talking about politics although I tend not to initiate it unless it is a conversation with someone I've talked a lot of politics with before. So far only two people have shunned me over politics. I've quasi-reconciled with one of them, made an attempt with the other and failed. Neither were under any threat from any politician or political ideology. One is as wealthy as me and one an order of magnitude wealthier, so they are above the part of the middle class that is getting squeezed out. IMO they just over-identify with their political ideology and assume other people are the same. Politics and personhood are synonymous.

I grew up around heated political discussions at every family gathering. Foul language and insults and threats abounded, but then someone would come back from the fridge with beers and everyone would be good again. Many of those relatives have been seriously hurt by politics and politicians over the last 30 years. But they don't hate the people who voted for the men and women who did it to them because they know the people didn't vote the politicians in to hurt them (and much of the hurt came from leaders they themselves voted for). So I apparently have a blind spot as to the reason it is necessary to flush relationships over opinions on social rule-making (politics, religion, whatever). The few times I have been exposed to relationship flushing the clear-and-present-danger rationale is what is given. But when you pull on that thread it is usually based on some really aggressive extrapolation that makes it a very low probability outcome. So I always tend to push the basics. Treat other people well and respect them the way you expect them to respect you. If you can't or won't do that, you're unlikely to gain or regain their affection.

Alphaville
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Re: Repairing relationships after 2020

Post by Alphaville »

IlliniDave wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:01 pm
That's a necessary consequence of identity politics becoming a academically codified thing that has leached into politics/social rule-making, and the only demographic it is socially tolerable to demonize is mine.
pardon the interruption @dave, but there’s an identity politics that is much older than modern academia. and i say that as a refugee from academia (fled the field, too much politics, did not like the overly ideological approaches). kindly begin here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_doctrine

i’m not demonizing you or insulting you, and i’ll gladly have a beer with you, i’m just clarifying the fact that identity politics is not a recent phenomenon, and wasn’t invented by college professors. check it out:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural ... ct_of_1790

anyway, apologies for the detour, please carry on.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Repairing relationships after 2020

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

On the slide from 7.8 billion to 0.5-1.0 billion, everyone becomes a partisan.

The delusion is convincing oneself one isn’t.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Repairing relationships after 2020

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@MI:

That may be true, but one never knows exactly how the ground will crack. It may come down to whatever motley few humans you entered an elevator with one morning. Rigid identification will only increase your vulnerability.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Repairing relationships after 2020

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

Yeah and you assumed I voted for Trump in the CC thread. I do not rigidly identify as anything. My point is that as Dave said everyone has their own story of being on a hit list, and the game now is getting people to care about their interest more than mine. Everyone wants to assert their own self-interest as a moral categorical imperative. I am immune to the Jedi mind tricks. Everyone is a partisan insofar as they are the most important party in their own life.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Repairing relationships after 2020

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I don’t think I assumed that you voted for Trump, but it is highly likely that my frequently messy use of language may have implied that I did. Sorry.

Anyways, nope, you gotta rise above. Ask yourself “Is that me? Who else am I? And who else are you?” Then pass around the pie.

IlliniDave
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Re: Repairing relationships after 2020

Post by IlliniDave »

Alphaville wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:07 pm
... i’m just clarifying the fact that identity politics is not a recent phenomenon, and wasn’t invented by college professors. check it out:
Point taken, and that's one of the enduring criticisms of identity politics--that it's a different face of the same old beast we've been battling for generations. As meant in contemporary usage, I believe the term identity politics grew out of a small US political movement 40 or 50 years ago and went through a gestational period in academia where it mingled with other ideas and evolved (codified in that sense rather than the written into law sense). My only argument for those two beliefs would be of the "appeal to authority" variety and therefore fallacious I think. With your background you have better source material! Regardless (guess I could say irregardless now :) ) of its intent and goals, identity politics has an effect of separating and dividing as practiced and is potentially among the stew of things a person in a similar position to the OP might have to overcome in putting back the pieces of a broken relationship.

I don't drink much these days, but some months down the road I'll be a lot more mobile and have plan without a schedule and that beer is firmly in the realm of the plausible.

Alphaville
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Re: Repairing relationships after 2020

Post by Alphaville »

@illinidave

yeah, i wanted to place the contemporary usage in a historical context, and point out that those academic currents didn’t originate in a void, but as a response to something that was there first, or as malcolm x would often say, it’s the chickens coming home to roost.

promises like freedom, equality before the law, etc etc, were universal only in theory, i practice they were ethnic and gendered enterprises that left a lot of people outside looking in. e.g., here is benjamin franklin, founding father and beacon of the enlightenment, ranting about “swarthy germans” https://founders.archives.gov/documents ... 04-02-0080 🙈

humans... are a messy, contradictory, embarrassing lot :D (and i accept that)

so while in some of the work i do i either *oppose* identity politics, or attempt to transcend them (because they can be like shooting yourself in the foot really), i also understand why they had to emerge by necessity—as a kind of last resort in a system that wasn’t delivering “universal” promises for many folks. and while this response can be pretty dysfunctional, i can’t blame this reaction for dysfunctions that clearly existed before and originated the reaction. same thing happens in dysfunctional families, where problems perpetuate from one generation to the next to the next to the next.

the other thing is that, with the postmodern distrust of centralization and big narratives, society was bound to splinter into local/religious/ethnic and other types of groups anyway.

so these days even the most mainstream americans are hyphenated-americans. this is funny stuff to me! e.g. i have an italian friend who laughs when an american says stuff like “i’m italian,” and he responds “no, you’re american”. and to me, they’re both wrong in their own way :lol: but seriously, i accept those unsolvable ambiguities as unsolvable, because while in some matters logic and clarity are the gold standard, in social and personal matters it’s nearly impossible to escape perspectivism and politically defined terms. i rewatch the sopranos not for the crime, but for the anthropology.

so this is just to say that maybe in trying to repair relationships it helps to understand and respect the other person’s perspective and history. not always, but... maybe most times? then again as @jacob points out there is a small percentage of people who are really into abuse and it’s best to break things off with them. luckily those sre not a majority, but they can exert influence sometimes.

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