Familial assistance

How to explain ERE, arranging family matters
2Birds1Stone
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Re: Familial assistance

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

Interesting topic.

Growing up I didn't have the greatest relationship with my parents. They probably shouldn't have brought kids into this world together, but it happened, and here I am. They housed and fed me through high school, though I worked from the day I turned 13 for any "fun money", first car, travel, etc. They paid my tuition in college, and I was on the hook for housing and the rest. They pushed me really hard toward a career I didn't want, and ultimately dropped out of college after my second year and have been entirely on my own ever since. Now at 33 years old our relationship is still rocky, and I feel no familial responsibility. They should be fine financially, have assets in the $2M+ range, will both get SS (65/64 years old already), as well as the option of relocating to their home country, which has very inexpensive elder care and COL. I don't expect any help from them financially in the future, and don't count on any inheritance. My brother has been a bit of a mooch over the years and they supported him through several years of un/under-employment, and recently manipulated them into an interest free "loan" to purchase a vacation home. I'm not close with him either.

Sometimes I wonder what it would be like to have a closer family, especially when being around friends who do. My wife's family is much closer, and even make me feel like more a part of a family than my own blood. One thing I'm not sure about is how to handle the in-laws care, MIL has made terrible financial decisions and could definitely end up a strain both financially and emotionally for DW. She's a manipulator and we can see her playing the "I brought you into this world, you owe me" card at some point......but hopefully that's still a decade or two away.

Wow, I must sound pretty callous to most of y'all.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Familial assistance

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Sclass:

The role you had to play with your Mom is almost exactly what I had to do for my affluent friend. I ended up being gifted with the equivalent of about $10,000/month for taking it on. Seems about right. I mean, how much does a nursing home administrator who gets nights and weekends off make?

I was more fond of my affluent friend than I am of my mother, so she is going to nursing home if it comes down to me. Luckily, I have several siblings, so it won’t. She has a very generous pension thanks to my fathers government employment, but almost no assets, so spend-down won’t be an issue.

I hope to leave my descendants some northern property to which they can skedaddle as the shits hit the fan of the future. It is my intention to off myself before I become a burden, but I haven’t done enough to consolidate this plan yet. Some rough mix of morphine and risk-taking is what I imagine. Like it’s a shame if you die from bungee jumping at 28 or eating all the pastries you want at 62, but at 85 why the hell not?

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Sclass
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Re: Familial assistance

Post by Sclass »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:42 pm
The role you had to play with your Mom is almost exactly what I had to do for my affluent friend. I ended up being gifted with the equivalent of about $10,000/month for taking it on. Seems about right. I mean, how much does a nursing home administrator who gets nights and weekends off make?
So I actually looked into this. I spoke to a care high end agency and told them I was going nuts and not only needed the muscle, I needed a brain to run the whole thing. The title “Senior care manager” came up and they said that costs $100,000+ a year in addition to the $30/hr muscle. I’m not sure if that counted overhead like insurance, benefits etc. I declined and DIYed.

Yeah so that’s why I figure one needs a trusted person to handle at least the financial part. Somebody has to cut the checks.

suomalainen
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Re: Familial assistance

Post by suomalainen »

My dad pressured me to get into a certain school where he was a professor so that I'd get free tuition. I ended up going there, but then transferring. So he "paid" for 3 semesters of tuition for me and he paid 50/50 room and board for me. But when I left, I was on my own. But he did give me a $5,000 loan to get me started and forgave the balance (about $2500) a year later. And then in law school, he gave me a $1,000 to tide me over my first summer. But that's peanuts compared to room and board and whatnot over 18 years.

One of the best gifts he's given me is the planning for his own demise. There is zero expectation for either my sister or I to care for them. He has even told me that he looked into long-term care (the average duration of which is only a few years) and knows that he has sufficient assets to pay for both of them to utilize that for end of life care if needed.

So, I plan to pass that onto my children - help them out a little bit (I'll give each $30,000 for college) to start and then go off and die when it's my time to die (or pay someone else to wipe my ass so it isn't asked of them).

ETA: if he goes first, my mom should have plenty of assets left to care for herself, but she will likely want to be closer to me and my sister (they live in CO, we live in New England), so it's possible there will be some management of care later. But, I am not like @sclass or @hristo - I don't have it in me to provide elder care, even to my own mom.

Campitor
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Re: Familial assistance

Post by Campitor »

Old forum thread on filial responsibility laws: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5429
And here's another thread regarding bailing out parents: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10342

It seems this is a frequent topic of worry. I don't plan to be a financial or physical burden to my children. I also expect to take care of my mother in some regard but with the constraint that money and time is finite. I will try to make her as comfortable as possible with the caveat that she won't get everything she wants. She took care of me as a child but that care came with limits and boundaries: I couldn't do whatever I want or get everything I desired. This philosophy applies in all stages of life including retirement and old age. Parent expectations should be set so there's no surprises. Open and honest communication in this regards is extremely important.

Parents expecting you to bankrupt yourself so they can fulfill their selfish and unrealistic desires is immoral. The love someone has for you is in direct proportion to how much they're willing to sacrifice to ensure you have a better future. To quote Nelson Henderson, “The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.”

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Sclass
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Re: Familial assistance

Post by Sclass »

Campitor wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:21 pm
Parents expecting you to bankrupt yourself so they can fulfill their selfish and unrealistic desires is immoral.
That’s pretty clear. The problem is for a lot of people basic support for survival puts financial stress on a modest income. We are all about efficiency here and strapping on extra weight to anyone works against the ERE path. I met a lot of nice people who said things like “my mom/dad is a good person in a bad place and I didn’t ask for this but they need my help and my wife and I are helping.” Their care system was not extravagant but it still financially hobbled their future plans. It was clearly a financial burden.

I think I should count my blessings that I came out on the other side financially ahead. My situation was wildly different.

Unrealistic demanding people become so when they are losing their grip on reality.

ZAFCorrection
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Re: Familial assistance

Post by ZAFCorrection »

What counts as basic support for survival can also get a bit blurry. My mom apparently needs some kind of inhalent medication ($400 per month without insurance) to counteract the effects of mold or whatever at her current place in iowa. Her and my dad have a mortgaged house in montana from which they recently moved for the job in iowa. Now that she has lost this job, you would think she would cancel the sale of the montana house and save the money on the medication by moving back.

But no, she likes the church in iowa, so she will get a small profit on the house, keep renting a more expensive place in iowa and pay the $400.

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jennypenny
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Re: Familial assistance

Post by jennypenny »

I think expectations are also different whether there is a sudden event that necessitates care and/or a new living arrangement, or whether one just slips into the role little by little. In the former, there will be 'meetings' and discussions where you can state your limits and preferences. In the latter, you might find yourself permanently in a role you only expected to fill temporarily. Even if you can afford it and have the time, it will make you much more fragile in ERE terms since you'll have bills and constraints you can't easily shed.


And while I know most forumites would jump in front of a bus at the first sign of waning independence, you might have children that feel differently, so be prepared to have that super-fun discussion. (I have a family member who removed a DNR bracelet every time she visited her mom in the hospital because she didn't agree with her mom's decision.) I'd also make sure there's a family member who agrees with you and is willing to produce your DNR/living will in case your children 'forget' to when the time comes.

Campitor
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Re: Familial assistance

Post by Campitor »

Sclass wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:15 am
That’s pretty clear. The problem is for a lot of people basic support for survival puts financial stress on a modest income. We are all about efficiency here and strapping on extra weight to anyone works against the ERE path...
My statement was in regard to unretired parents, who have options to live comfortably in old age but choose to put little or no money aside, expecting their children to fill in the gaps regardless of the financial ruin it may cause. Or parents in retirement that deliberately choose to squander money living lavishing with the expectation their children will fill the gaps when the money is gone. This is the immorality that I'm talking about.

If my mother suddenly experienced an event outside of her control (complete collapse of the economy, pension collapse, etc.), I would have no qualms providing for her even if it impacted me severely - we'd be poor together and I'd be all the happier for it.

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Sclass
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Re: Familial assistance

Post by Sclass »

jennypenny wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:58 pm
(I have a family member who removed a DNR bracelet every time she visited her mom in the hospital because she didn't agree with her mom's decision.) I'd also make sure there's a family member who agrees with you and is willing to produce your DNR/living will in case your children 'forget' to when the time comes.
:o

I got something called a POLST that didn’t require mom’s signature. I got a lot of pushback from the family over this. I was told I didn’t have the legal authority to do a DNR. Apparently a POLST can be done by the primary caregiver but they didn’t know that since it was a relatively new document.

Then I started mom on hospice. Somehow that inflamed everyone. Nobody wanted a role in taking care of my mom but they all threw in their two cents about how it should be done. Again I was told by family I had no legal right to do that.

They implied subtly that I hadn’t looked into every possible treatment. Really? For late stage Alzheimer’s? Get real.

Everyone had their ideas but nobody really helped out. Hospice and POLST were the smartest things I ever did. Removed a lot of responsibility for “saving” mom .

enigmaT120
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Re: Familial assistance

Post by enigmaT120 »

Sclass, you can find more family. And it sounds like you should. They won't be related to you physically but they will be your true family. I'm sorry for what happened to you.

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