Time spent with Friends/Family

How to explain ERE, arranging family matters
User avatar
Ego
Posts: 4211
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Time spent with Friends/Family

Post by Ego » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:08 am

@classical_Liberal, I agree with your entire post but this....
classical_Liberal wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:53 pm
I guess my point is that introversion (the preference for) is not a deficiency.
You are a kind person so I understand why you said it. I worry that this type of kindness can become enabling.

Most introversion is not a deficiency.

If a person must use medication, alcohol or drugs to deal with social situations, that strikes me as a deficiency. Same if it is negatively affecting important relationships or if they are unable to be in regular social situations without feeling overwhelmed.

Introversion and extraversion are not fixed in stone. I am persistent in pointing that out here because people who say they are introverts are more susceptible to Learned Helplessness and those who claim to be outliers at either end of the I/E spectrum are more susceptible to a fixed mindset as opposed to a growth mindset.

tonyedgecombe
Posts: 241
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:11 pm
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: Time spent with Friends/Family

Post by tonyedgecombe » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:06 am

I thought all that stuff about growth mindsets had been debunked, or at least hasn't been replicated in any published paper.

User avatar
Ego
Posts: 4211
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Time spent with Friends/Family

Post by Ego » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:43 am

tonyedgecombe wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:06 am
I thought all that stuff about growth mindsets had been debunked, or at least hasn't been replicated in any published paper.
Nope, both Dweck's Mindset and Duckworth's Grit were replicated after the original controversy in general psychological research. In fact, they found that those most in need of a changed mindset where those who benefited the most....

https://marginalrevolution.com/marginal ... cates.html

7Wannabe5
Posts: 5007
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Time spent with Friends/Family

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:49 am

@Ego:

I would like to agree with you, because I am an ambivert, but I balk at the general theory when I consider applying it to the realms where I am more outlier, such as N and A. It's very difficult for me to perceive how I could make myself less absent-minded or more likely to throw a temper tantrum, or what benefit I might derive from the attempt.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 11222
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 73
Contact:

Re: Time spent with Friends/Family

Post by jacob » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:31 am

classical_Liberal wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:53 pm
As such, I would encourage any introvert interested in mastering social skills to keep going, the benefits are huge.
Huge compared to what? :geek:

It was mentioned earlier that socializing is somewhat of a trade off between that and something else. Another factor with socialization is that it comes with a larger maintenance/upkeep component. You'll have to keep socializing to maintain it, that is, attend/create social functions in order to keep the social ball rolling.

So which other ability in particular should introverts develop less in order to focus more on socializing? Independence? Creativity? Intrinsic motivation? Wisdom? Just being rhetorical here...

Ultimately, it's an exercise in load-balancing and where to focus one's finite reserves. For example, had I been more interested in social appearances/connections/rewards than pushing boundaries and finding the edge, ERE would not have been ERE as we know it now. It would have been sat at a lower Wheaton level because I would have been more interested in how it looked and fit in with other people than how the system worked and how far it could be taken. If measured in terms of income or mainstream popularity, it could be argued that the benefits would be bigger than they have been (same as my career trajectories), but OTOH, the upper levels would still be unknown (as far as I can tell).

Another way of saying it is that I'm unlikely to find what I want out of my life in socializing. This is because most other people are not interested in what I'm interested in. Hence, the ROI of spending my reserve on talking to other people is low. Sorry humans, I just don't find most of you all that interesting :-P (<- This attitude is of course a huge handicap when trying to socialize :lol: )

I return to: http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html

ffj
Posts: 1932
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:16 am

Re: Time spent with Friends/Family

Post by ffj » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:09 am

There is a lot of merit to what Ego and Classical Liberal have to say. And man, do I understand Jacob and others point of view.

Being socially adept pays off, and I dare say makes one more happy. It opens doors and opportunities that wouldn't have existed otherwise and I don't think you have to sell your soul (or crush it) to develop some skill-sets. Believe me, if I can do it, anybody can, as I lived for many, many years in my head and in a book. It's a form of self-imposed isolationism, and it's a shield against the unpleasantness of our fellow man. If you do it too much, then you end up paying a higher price than just dealing with uncomfortable situations.

daylen
Posts: 1104
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am

Re: Time spent with Friends/Family

Post by daylen » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:22 am

It is actually quite easy for me to make friends (as hard as that is to believe :D ). I did it in high school and still do at random events. I have a bit more dopamine than jacob. I am also much less agreeable which allows me to play devil's advocate in a way that others typically find humorous (works better in person). Now, I have a moderate handful of friends/family that satisfy my social itch. Most other humans are data points I use to train my models. This is no secret and people still find me a good conversationalist.

As time goes on, trying to understand and develop frames into the mind just keeps getting more fun. Not engaging with this puzzle is the cost I have to overcome in order to meet new humans that will probably just become data points. :mrgreen:

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 11222
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 73
Contact:

Re: Time spent with Friends/Family

Post by jacob » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:50 am

Maybe you guys (cL, Ego, ...) should make a Socialization Wheaton scale?

tonyedgecombe
Posts: 241
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:11 pm
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: Time spent with Friends/Family

Post by tonyedgecombe » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:05 am

Ego wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:43 am
Nope, both Dweck's Mindset and Duckworth's Grit were replicated after the original controversy in general psychological research. In fact, they found that those most in need of a changed mindset where those who benefited the most....

https://marginalrevolution.com/marginal ... cates.html
the average treatment effect was 0.03 grade points
It was so small it was probably the Hawthorne effect. I'm not convinced.

daylen
Posts: 1104
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am

Re: Time spent with Friends/Family

Post by daylen » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:44 am

Socialization Wheaton Scale (v0)

Level 0:
No social instincts. Other members of species are either competition or mise well not exist. Tigers, bears, reptiles, etc.

Level 1:
Some social instincts regulated by anxiety and dopamine. Can interpret signals for social engagement or disengagement. Capable of sharing. Most animals that live in groups.

Level 2:
Trust or distrust can be built up overtime. At this stage, friends or enemies can be made. Dogs, elephants, most primates?, lions?, ..

Level 3:
Second order relations are monitored. Friends of friends are treated with respect in order to maintain first-order friendships. Enemies of friends are typically avoided unless provoked. Most teenagers.

Level 4:
Internalization of small world networking. An understanding that any disruption of the social web can lead to cascading distrust. All social interaction is accordingly monitored for potential disruptions. Reputation is tracked at this stage. Most adults?

Level 5:
Behavior is altered based on network clustering estimations. Utilization of various specialized languages according to context. Reputation is understood to be non-uniformly distributed.

Not sure what is beyond this or if this is even the right way to go about it. Feel free to tear it apart!
Last edited by daylen on Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 11222
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 73
Contact:

Re: Time spent with Friends/Family

Post by jacob » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:59 am

Sounds like Kegan's levels in terms of social understanding which is a good framework. But I was more interested in the practical implications of those behaviors. Understanding something is not the same as practicing it.

To give an example, on this forum, I like to think I operate/moderate at 4/5 ... but IRL, I don't really bother to go beyond 2/3 depending on how close the person is. Based on that, I have an idea of what 4 looks like in the real world when it comes to careers for example. Indeed, the whole discussion about employability (at least at the corporate level) is about maintaining a level 4 reputation. I just never practiced it.

Also what would those levels look like with friends and family?

To do list:
a) A column for work
b) A column for friends
c) A column for family

User avatar
jennypenny
Posts: 6240
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
Location: Stepford USA

Re: Time spent with Friends/Family

Post by jennypenny » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:04 am

maybe more practical stages?

unwillingness to engage
willingness to engage/acknowledgement of usefulness
capable of general friendliness
can maintain acquaintances and navigate social circles
capable of reciprocity (and ability to recognize its usefulness in a situation)
can maintain friendships within defined social circles, can improve station within them
can maintain friendships outside of predetermined social circles
capable of trust and putting others' needs before oneself
capable of disregarding one's needs for the benefit of everyone (transforming others' needs into your own)

User avatar
Ego
Posts: 4211
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Time spent with Friends/Family

Post by Ego » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:04 am

jacob wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:50 am
Maybe you guys (cL, Ego, ...) should make a Socialization Wheaton scale?
Hah! I think I'll pass. We all know how well that worked out last time. :lol:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8103&start=40#p126054

User avatar
jennypenny
Posts: 6240
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
Location: Stepford USA

Re: Time spent with Friends/Family

Post by jennypenny » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:06 am

Ha, I failed too in that thread. [insert sound of someone tapping out ...]

daylen
Posts: 1104
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am

Re: Time spent with Friends/Family

Post by daylen » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:06 pm

Image

This is a very crude attempt, but I tried to incorporate some of the suggestions above along with some associations. Not that orderly or aesthetically pleasing. Maybe something better well emerge from it.

User avatar
jennypenny
Posts: 6240
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
Location: Stepford USA

Re: Time spent with Friends/Family

Post by jennypenny » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:31 pm

Wads wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:19 pm
I know Human connection is important but how much?
Should I be spending more time with others even though im satisfied?
How much time do other INTJ's spend with friends or family?
I think this isn't one problem with one solution. Maybe look at it from a permaculture standpoint. First, consider your own needs (as others have suggested). You might find that you're completely satisfied with very little interaction like now. As long as you're confident that you are truly satisfied, you're good. Second, though, you need to consider those around you and what their needs are. You don't have to completely meet their needs but you also don't want to completely discount them. They are your closest support group and you should try to find a compromise. Third is your acquaintance-level group. Again, you want to find a compromise where you do enough that it conveys to those people that you care about their own needs. This group often includes acquaintances in various groups that have some social expectations placed on all members (work, school, neighborhood, etc). Remind yourself that everyone has expectations placed on them, not just you.

As far as the social interactions themselves, there are two ways to deal with them. First, try to identify the must-do activities. This might mean telling the person that you don't have the time to make all of the commitments and asking which are most important to them. With an extended group, it might mean figuring out which events everyone attends (like the company retreat or neighborhood block party) or figuring out how often people attend events like a weekly happy hour where they still get credit even though they don't come every time.

Second, learn how to control the interaction. If you don't like certain types of events, plan other ones instead. I'm not into shopping just for the sake of shopping, but I love watching sporting events with people and try to schedule those to avoid requests to go shopping. I've also learned to make myself useful in the kitchen during parties so I get credit for attending but avoid some of the socializing. I know a guy who also dislikes parties so he's always the one to set up the tent, coolers, grill, etc, so he gets credit for being there and helping out without having to talk to many people. Another trick is to learn a bit about wine (or whatever) and always bring an unusual bottle to events and know a little about it so you have something to talk about. What I mean is figure out a role to play at gatherings to make it easier to navigate.

The other trick to controlling the interaction is to admit to being clueless/uncomfortable. When you get to the baby shower, say in a somewhat joking manner that you're clueless about the secret rituals of baby showers and ask what people do at them. Or call your host before a dinner party or event and say something like "I try to avoid these things but I'm flattered you asked and want to come ... what should I wear and what should I bring? Tell me what's appropriate." If you don't want to 'waste' the whole day on an event, call the host of whatever, say you're busy but are flattered to be invited so you want to get there for an hour or so -- what time would be best or what time is dinner or whatever. You get the idea.

I understand the 'I' thing. Unfortunately, it doesn't get you out of all socializing. You might be satisfied with the level of interaction you've chosen but if other people aren't, you'll slowly lose social capital which will affect you in other aspects of your life. Everyone needs a buffer of people around them to deal with the uncertainties in life. I know seeing people just so they are on the hook to reciprocate is a cold way to look at it. Still, it's no different than feeling obliged to network at work or say hi to neighbors -- you don't want to become known as 'that guy'. It's self-preservation, which is worth being uncomfortable occasionally.

The last trick is to figure out another way to make things special for people without actually seeing them. Like be the person who always sends a great card to people for birthdays, pick me ups, etc. Personally, I send flowers or books. It doesn't really matter. The point of all this blabbering is that you want to appear thoughtful -- that you take other people's feelings into account and sincerely want them to be happy, too. Just learn how to do it on your own terms.

bigato
Posts: 2117
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:43 pm

Re: Time spent with Friends/Family

Post by bigato » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:20 pm

Ego: going by your criteria, I could label deficient the extroverts who can't go two days without talking to someone else or who can't learn programming because they are so in need of socializing all the time that they have no time for extended focus alone. And yet in both cases applying that label will only serve the purpose of gathering us enemies and having people shutdown to our arguments. I'm sure we can do better than that. Let's be open to alternative ways of living and accept that maybe some people can be polar opposite of us and still be happy, functional and productive individuals. Let me suggest being bold enough to consider the idea that maybe people are different enough from us and from the people that we know? That maybe we don't know enough about the different kinds of human beings around?

Regarding jacob's rethorical question on what should an introvert do less in order to direct the finite resource of time to social skills, the answer is the same for any other skill. Given the Paretto law of diminishing returns, one should practice less of whatever skill one masters the most at the moment, and allocate some of that time to skills that one is less skilled at. Because it doesn't pay so much to dedicate further time to practice say, bjj 5 days a week when you are already past the black belt. Maybe practice bjj only 4 days and practice piano once a week instead? Or whatever skill that you have the least and see utility in learning.

Often unrelated skills will contribute to one another in ways one couldn't imagine in advance. Like Musashi the sword master being a skilled artist. One point that is often overlooked is that economy is the bastard child of statistics and mass psychology, and thus investing can potentially benefit from knowing more about people and culture. At the very least, it helps with not getting surprised with people acting in ways that does not look rational. You also don't need to fill all your time with social because, using daylen words, those are just additional data points. And you don't need that big of a sample to derive useful conclusions. But increasing the sample increases accuracy.

That said, reading daylen's table, I can now see why I like other animals better than humans most of the time.

anesde
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:32 am

Re: Time spent with Friends/Family

Post by anesde » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:36 pm

bigato wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:20 pm
Ego: going by your criteria, I could label deficient the extroverts who can't go two days without talking to someone else or who can't learn programming because they are so in need of socializing all the time that they have no time for extended focus alone.
Not to stir the pot but I do think that would be a deficiency.

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding but I don’t think Ego’s point is that far off from what I think is the best thing that Jacob has shared (very much in the ERE mindset)

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
—Robert A. Heinlein


Roughly half of the above requires quite a robust level of social ability.

EDIT - I should clarify that I don’t actually disagree with bigato on the inherent differences between people, nor that there are extremes on both sides of the spectrum. Just saying that to maximise one’s ability to be a “generalist” or “renaissance person” (or whatever the best definition is) it requires the ability to socialise at a [moderately] high level

bigato
Posts: 2117
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:43 pm

Re: Time spent with Friends/Family

Post by bigato » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:11 pm

Well maybe this is a cultural difference but around here, saying that someone is deficient is a somewhat loaded word, not to be used when not literal. It can sound pejorative if used out of context and my point is that we get as much benefit from it as we get from calling a white person a melanine deficient person. It does not help the dialogue nor builds rapport.

classical_Liberal
Posts: 942
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:05 am

Re: Time spent with Friends/Family

Post by classical_Liberal » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:07 pm

I'm gonna stay out of the "deficiency" realm. Mainly because everyone has strengths and weakness and I don't necessarily think all weakness should be defined as deficient. Although if a weakness is holding someone back from something they would otherwise like/want to accomplish, then I think it's fair to define it as deficient. However, this is very much a self diagnosis, so I leave that to the individual.
jacob wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:31 am
Huge compared to what?
I think this is important, so I'm going to address it using an analogy most will understand. The best description I can use for the advantages of strong social skills; it's similar to the type of advantages very physically attractive people seem to hold on the opposite sex. An extremely physically attractive person tends to hold peoples attention by simply being present. Most people tend to want to please them. They can literally hold a room captive. They are given more opportunities because people like to be in their presence. The advantage is small, but tangible and ever-present in interpersonal interactions. We've all noticed this at some point, no?

Now, high level social skills are not as immediate (people have to be given the chance to experience it from you), nor as quite as impactful. However, they are sort-of a low level of the same concept. I would guess this is because sex drive is a more base level phenomenon than social drive in our minds. Yet I think social, emotional, limbic, whatever, tends to trump the intellectual.

I think I may rile up some folks using this analogy. So, I'll quickly concede that extreme physical attractiveness also has drawbacks and takes a ton of work to achieve and maintain. So I'm not saying these people have the world on a platter. Just that they have an advantage in human interactions and that advantage is similar to folks who have very strong social skills. You almost have to experience it to understand it.

As far as what someone has to give up to focus on social skills... I can't answer that. I'm sure it takes much more energy from introverts. I tended to develop it naturally over time and actually made a career switch, partially to work on the parts I had neglected, see my comment to ego below. I do disagree that it requires regular maintenance/upkeep. Human relationships require this upkeep, although probably not as much as you may think, depending on the relationship. I have a ton of old friends I rarely see, but when we are together, it's like we were never apart. The social skills themselves are turned on at will once learned to a level unconscious competence, like any other skill.

wrt to a Wheaton scale, I could try my hand at it if it doesn't develop on it's own from @daylen and others. At the moment I'm pretty busy wrapping up this whole full time work thing, so I may not have much time for the next week. I will say they type of person an introvert would normally label as annoyingly extroverted is not an example of someone with high social skills. This is likely an extrovert with less than adequate social skills. Although I will admit to sometimes enjoying being the "life of the party", I also acknowledge/understand that overly boisterous behavior irritates many and try to avoid taking the stage for too long. A high Wheaton level person is the type of person most people would describe as having "an instant connection with".

@Ego
Thanks for the compliment, it actually means alot you view me as kind. As an ENTJ, being empathetic, particulalry with certain types of people, was not an easy task to accomplish. I would say 25% of the reason I became a nurse was to work on this part of my personality.

Post Reply