Random Relationship Derailment Thread

How to explain ERE, arranging family matters
Post Reply
Augustus
Posts: 854
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:15 am

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Augustus » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:18 am

Cats_and_tats wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:55 am
I think there's a more overarching point. Many men are bad at relationships. Many women are bad at relationships. Regardless of gender, when someone sucks at dealing with people whether that's the opposite sex or same sex, they will say things that reflect their being bad at relationships. The lady who wrote the article is obviously bad with relationships IMO, that's why she hates men and writes ridiculous things, it's a defense mechanism, otherwise she would feel shitty for having bad experiences with men. The same goes for a lot of the "pick up artist" or MGTOW crowd, they are obviously bad with relationships, so they say things that are ridiculous and often hate women, which again is often just a defense mechanism.

Then you've got someone like 7w5, who everyone loves, and loves everyone.

unemployable
Posts: 243
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:36 am

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by unemployable » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:18 am

Fucking men and their... shuffles deck... wanting to have money

Cats_and_tats
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:01 pm

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Cats_and_tats » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:43 am

Augustus wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:18 am
I think there's a more overarching point. Many men are bad at relationships. Many women are bad at relationships. ... The lady who wrote the article is obviously bad with relationships IMO, that's why she hates men and writes ridiculous things, it's a defense mechanism, otherwise she would feel shitty for having bad experiences with men.
I don't agree. I don't see anything that indicates she's bad at relationships. I am great at relationships, and I agree with a lot of what she said. A lot of people in the community treat women like a commodity to be acquired like money is to be acquired, and women that don't agree with how amazing the men think they are are all bitches. Like men who think they are the 'nice guys' who are actually creeps.

It isn't about being angry at men for wanting to have money, it's about treating other people like they aren't real people. It's about deciding anyone else's desires or needs are stupid or unimportant. And that anyone who doesn't kowtow to the most extreme FIRE ideas suck, even though it takes anyone getting into it time to adjust. I don't see where her personal relationship, which you don't actually know, has anything to do with it.

Crazylemon
Posts: 204
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:29 am

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Crazylemon » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:48 am

I don't approve of the never helpful ad hominem elements of the article. Likewise ad hominems at the author are unhelpful.

But pointing out the FIREsphere is male dominated and regularly has people complaining about (lack of) relationships is fair.
Then pointing out this community tends to look for internal advice for solutions which all come from a male POV. This can include strategies that are sub optimal for multiple reasons, and can be sexist.
I think it is valuable for then suggesting looking elsewhere might provide more effective ways to have success in relationship building. Or, alternatively, trying to make parts of the FIREsphere areas where women feel more comfortable existing and commenting.

@C&T exactly.

Augustus
Posts: 854
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:15 am

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Augustus » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:49 am

Cats_and_tats wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:43 am
it's about treating other people like they aren't real people.
It's an article that treats other people (men) like they aren't real people, and complains about how men don't treat people like they are real people. This is exactly my point. The article is similar to a former slave enslaving a bunch of people while bewailing the evils of slavery.

I can tell that she has bad relationships because she hates men. If you had a bunch of great relationships with men you wouldn't write a 5 page article on how much you hate them :lol:

Stahlmann
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:05 pm

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Stahlmann » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:07 pm

A lot of people in the treat women like a commodity to be acquired like money is to be acquired
If I hear this argument IRL, I simply LOL.

Ask average man how many times he got rejected as his dreamful lady has chosen somebody older, wealthier or just better "set" in life. Then think for a moment.

Who is objectifying who?

Btw, the same goes for "pick up books". It must be fun to be young woman who is above 30 percentile in terms of looks and believing that everything is "just happening".

Cats_and_tats
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:01 pm

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Cats_and_tats » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:14 pm

I don't think she does hate men, and pointing out issues in a community isn't the same thing.

Saying her viewpoint is stupid and incorrect and she hates men and her relationships are bad - you are just reinforcing what she is saying.

There was a recent thread of someone saying how they have more success with women when you start relationships by lying to them, and many people were like, oh, great idea, whatever gets you that pussy. But I can guarantee if a lady started the relationship with lies and got found out and it was posted about here, everyone would be saying how all women are liars and garbage and cheats, etc.

I totally agree with @crazylemon above - if everyone having the same issue in a group and only talks to each other, they won't find the answers there.

Augustus
Posts: 854
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:15 am

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Augustus » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:28 pm

I am reinforcing her argument.. because I am saying she is wrong? Isn't that...what I'm not doing.. by saying she's wrong? If I tell someone they are wrong... and it reinforces their argument... man I've really been doing this the wrong way my entire life.

I think all this is mostly about expectations. I have low expectations for EVERYONE, man, woman, dog, cat, etc. Thus, I am not often disappointed in others. I can generally see the good in everyone, even though we're all flawed, myself included (obviously). I remember once when someone told me that "it's like being mad at a retard for knocking over glue." That one got embedded deeply in my psyche :lol:

Cats_and_tats
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:01 pm

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Cats_and_tats » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:41 pm

You didn't say she was wrong, you said she hates men and has bad relationships, neither of which you have proof of, and is not actually addressing any of her arguments.

She said the space is sexist, and you said she hates men and has bad relationships, which are sexist assumptions which prove her point that the space is sexist, and do nothing to refute her arguments.

If the only way you know how to disagree with someone is making up things about what you think about them personally, and not addressing anything they actually say, I will have to agree with you that you've been disagreeing with people incorrectly for a long time.

Augustus
Posts: 854
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:15 am

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Augustus » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:43 pm

Cats_and_tats wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:14 pm
Saying her viewpoint is stupid and incorrect
According to you I did say she was wrong. Or have I been misunderstanding what incorrect means my entire life as well? I don't think I ever said she was stupid. She has a law degree, that generally requires intelligence. I did say she was a bitch though, which I stand by. Anyone who writes a hit piece on my cult leader fits my definition of bitch.

Cats_and_tats
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:01 pm

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Cats_and_tats » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:57 pm

Okay, we can be more pedantic, if you want.

"You didn't say she was {ONLY} wrong, you said she hates men and has bad relationships, neither of which you have proof of, and is not actually addressing any of her arguments."

But if you agree it is a cult, how do cults treat non-members? Not well, yeah? But when she points it out, it's a hit piece written by a bitch? If your definition is a bitch is someone who disagrees with something you believe, that seems like an issue. I like lots of people who have views I disagree with. That doesn't make them bitches. But I haven't seen you actually have an argument against anything she actually said, other than name-calling and making up ideas about her personal life because you felt offended that she disagreed with you.

Augustus
Posts: 854
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:15 am

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Augustus » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:07 pm

I think you are misunderstanding. I agree with her on some things, I even said so above, there are lots of men who suck at relationships and say ridiculous things. Here, I'll quote myself:
Augustus wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:18 am

I think there's a more overarching point. Many men are bad at relationships. Many women are bad at relationships. Regardless of gender, when someone sucks at dealing with people whether that's the opposite sex or same sex, they will say things that reflect their being bad at relationships. The lady who wrote the article is obviously bad with relationships IMO, that's why she hates men and writes ridiculous things, it's a defense mechanism, otherwise she would feel shitty for having bad experiences with men. The same goes for a lot of the "pick up artist" or MGTOW crowd, they are obviously bad with relationships, so they say things that are ridiculous and often hate women, which again is often just a defense mechanism.

Then you've got someone like 7w5, who everyone loves, and loves everyone.
I was merely pointing out that there are large numbers of humans who suck at relationships. Which was the whole point to my "overarching" point theory. See that part that says "regardless of gender"? That part is important.

My point, my real point, was that she is the people she has been waiting for. MGTOW and feminazis belong to the same category. They hate the opposite sex because they don't understand them well enough and have bad relationships due to that fact. Or they're assholes. But usually it's just misunderstanding.
Last edited by Augustus on Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 4743
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:09 pm

This thread is starting to give me a flashback to my sex-starved marriage therapy group. I never knew whether to side with the low-sex drive partners who were mostly women or the high-sex drive partners who were mostly men. Can we all just agree that humans of either gender who are total nerds and semi-desperate to get laid are kind of unappealing?

For instance, in retrospect, it is possible that it was not best practice when I told my was-band (IxFx), "I have lost 25 lbs, and my waist-to-hip ratio is now well below .75, so that means that any normal man would want to have sex with me." To which he replied, " You are too nerdy to f*ck." MY INFP sister also once told me that I am so dorky if I was a man I would never get laid. Thus, my empathy for the young men who are similarly situated and subject to intermittent haranguing by sensitive, hoping to be authentically and uniquely validated, F-types of either gender.

@Augustus:

Likely that the wife of my former ENFP polyamorous partner still hates me, but not my fault that she agreed to open contract with a man who had innate tendencies towards "romantic" and "wishy-washy." Also, I do not love J.Bozo, although I do feel sympathy for the highly typical mid-life male problems he revealed very clearly that he is suffering from in his made-public sexting.

Augustus
Posts: 854
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:15 am

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Augustus » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:14 pm

@7w5:
Your was-band is a dick. See! My bad words cut both ways! But seriously, what an asshole.

Do love triangles ever end well? I mean call me crazy, but from what I've read from the history books someone usually gets killed, or at the very least a good ass kicking, or some very angry journal entries.

prognastat
Posts: 968
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 8:30 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by prognastat » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:22 pm

Well let's see:

- Complains that FIRE bloggers don't recognise the difficulties that uniquely challenge women in FI then complains about a quote of JLF explicitly calling out that things are more difficult for women. Also despite with every other point where there might be a user comment that emphasizes the way she is trying to paint the community here she fails to bring up the women responding to this very point in the comments that this is largely a problem caused by other women.
- Complains about the FIRE space having sexist gender stereotypical ideas of gender dynamics, yet repeatedly judges the big bloggers for their sense of style which would be behaviour matching what those she is complaining about would say women do.
- She doesn't have a single good thing to say in the whole article about the community or the "leaders", this doesn't really make it seem like the feedback comes from a place of someone caring about the FIRE community.
- Big Bloggers are defensive about being accused they are the cause of the composition of the community by them indicating these are universal principles that would be effective for either gender. Very much like your response about disagreeing with the author being indicative of the problem she constructs a no win situation where either you agree you are part of the problem or you disagree indicating you are part of the problem.
- Associating words as if they are manoshpere words(Complainypants/Badassity) when they simply aren't. Just another way to try to make it seem like there is some pernicious overlap without actually providing any proof.
- Incel is another buzzword thrown in just for good measure with no indication of any real link, but this way we can paint the community even more in the negative light. I mean Incels hate women and there have been a few recently that became mass shooters so it's a good accusation to throw at anyone you don't like.
- She judges JLF for posting a "sardonic, sexist video about marriage". Though really it seems like it's more a sarcastic take on the mainstream middle class life.
- Pretty much tries to paint a picture of JLF and MMM(an I'm sure this is supposed to extend to the whole community) as being misleading about their relationships being egalitarian and really they are just living it up while their wives are busy cooking, cleaning and popping out babies as they ought to do...(just in case I'm going to point out I'm being sarcastic)

Also though I disagree that pick-up/MGTOW arguments are even common in the community, even if they do sometimes come up. Most FIRE bloggers and their communities are extremely left wing and actually are quick to block such discussion and ban those that bring it up(a complaint she also has that discussions about gender are often banned, when generally they are banned to prevent people from talking about pick-up/MGTOW ideas not hers). I would say it definitely isn't common with the big bloggers, most try to avoid it at all cost. The ERE forums actually stand out in that this discussion isn't outright banned though JLF obviously isn't fond of it. The fact though that this alone makes this forum stand out says a lot about the perception of Pick-Up/MGTOW/Manosphere/whatever buzzword you want to add among most of the FIRE community. They aren't accepted.

TL;DR
Complains about the FIRE community stereotyping women in sexist ways, but doesn't realise she is doing this very same thing to men/the FIRE community by taking a few discussions that make up a minor part of the community and extrapolating it to the whole.
Last edited by prognastat on Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Crazylemon
Posts: 204
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:29 am

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Crazylemon » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:26 pm

@Augustus

I can agree that what she has written about certain individuals is not very nice and is almost certainly filled with some half truths/exargerations for either comedic or outrage generating effects. This does not invalidate all other points.

It is more specifically the parts of the article that Fish quoted that are worth looking at closely. This is a male dominated space that probably has a higher than average level of relationship issues. In basically all men. Is it not plausible that this might then lead to as you describe 'defence mechanisms' which could be sexist?

Yes women and men can BOTH have relationships issues. The point that is of value from the article is in the FIREsphere this is only really seen from the male perspective. It doesn't matter if you dislike the person bringing it up if it addresses an issue that with worth looking at trying to fix.

@Stahlmann
As you say, top 30%. Does that make 70% of women invisible? Also constant attention and attempts to flirt/initiate relationships don't have zero cost to an individual. Declining a man without bruising an ego is tough. Even being a probably average gay man I have had enough unwanted male attention to be able to say it can be unpleasant. Being an attractive women with all the power dynamics that can involve is probably like turning that up to 11. It isn't only one side that has issues.

@7wb5 Nah they just have to find other horny nerds of the relevant gender. At least anecdotally.

prognastat
Posts: 968
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 8:30 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by prognastat » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:33 pm

@Crazylemon
She pretty much paints both JLF and MMM as outright sexists heading a sexist movement/community. A place where men need to be men and women need to be women.

Augustus
Posts: 854
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:15 am

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Augustus » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:35 pm

Crazylemon wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:26 pm
@Augustus

I can agree that what she has written about certain individuals is not very nice and is almost certainly filled with some half truths/exargerations for either comedic or outrage generating effects. This does not invalidate all other points.

It is more specifically the parts of the article that Fish quoted that are worth looking at closely. This is a male dominated space that probably has a higher than average level of relationship issues. In basically all men. Is it not plausible that this might then lead to as you describe 'defence mechanisms' which could be sexist?

Yes women and men can BOTH have relationships issues. The point that is of value from the article is in the FIREsphere this is only really seen from the male perspective. It doesn't matter if you dislike the person bringing it up if it addresses an issue that with worth looking at trying to fix.
I think I said everything you just said but in different words. I'm just super snarky about it. Men are bad with relationships and write ridiculous things on forums, and so are women who write ridiculous things in hit piece articles. Shocker!

But like look at me, I specifically said multiple times men are guilty of the same things, I just pointed out that women are ALSO guilty, and bam, I am immediately called a sexist pig. That's kinda messed up.

Regarding fixing the issue, that's what I'm doing... or so I thought. We are having a dialogue. I am mansplaining to you why you are incorrect am I not? I'm just trying to help!

Before anyone points it out, yes, I am being sarcastic...

Jason
Posts: 1998
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:37 am

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Jason » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:36 pm

I just submitted my blog post "The Bat Shit Length These Big Old Bull Dykes Go To Spending Their Entire Income During Gay Pride Week" to their website so hopefully we'll get an opposing viewpoint on their obviously non-partisan website.

prognastat
Posts: 968
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 8:30 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by prognastat » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:47 pm

As for a comparison on her bias look at how she writes about women cheating:
https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/why ... e-than-men

Suddenly instead of trying to paint the subjects of the topic as negative as possible we are trying to find gray areas and excuses for what is generally considered bad behaviour.

Post Reply