Random Relationship Derailment Thread

How to explain ERE, arranging family matters
Jean
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Jean » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:12 pm

My dear expressed a will to go to thé usa, so i might Come again an other year. Meeting prefiltered people is Always nice.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:17 pm

Jason wrote:I think you can pull it off. And it's not immature if it's done with the purest Machiavellian intent.
True. Anyways, I am very much on the cusp of INTP/ENTP, so it's not entirely clear whether I am most supposed to avoid any occupation that requires empathetic listening or any occupation that requires adherence to dull routine. I do suck at both of these functions. Maybe I could partner up with an ISFJ man to take care of the touchy-feely and detail work? Like I could logically and enthusiastically explain how the program works to the women using super-friendly flow-charts and he could do drum circle male energy nurturing warm-up activities with the men and/or vice-versa.
"She's got a lot of penny-pinching boys, she calls friends."
NT females are very poorly represented in the population. Nobody else will let me talk about systems theory.

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Stahlmann
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Stahlmann » Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:12 am

white belt wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:41 pm
...lentil baby, I think a partner would quickly find me overbearing if I were to suggest or implement things to make her life more efficient. Part of being in INTJ means I can have some pretty strong opinions on the "correct" way of doing something, so I've learned to keep my mouth shut and not offer advice unless asked for it.
very interesting problem, even in non-romantic relationships.

for romantic relationships, it's even bigger one.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:55 am

@Stahlmann:

It's the classic J vs. P conflict. The MBTI life coach/therapist I am listening to is a female ENFJ and she actually teared up during her podcast while describing her difficulty with reining in her J-ness which has caused problems for her in relationships, because it is perceived as masculine energy. I almost laughed out loud, because she offered "telling a P the right way to load the dishwasher" as an example, and I have actually gotten into major fights with 2 different very J partners over that exact issue.

P's have a very limited ability to focus, so when a J demands that a P use some of that hard to summon up focus on something as trivial as dishwasher loading, it's like being asked to flush your own goals down the toilet. It sometimes makes you want to scream "Leave me alone. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care about the damned dishwasher!!!" or go hide out somewhere they can't bother, bully or nag you. OTOH, on a day when you are in a better functioning mode, you might just chuckle to yourself and say " Yes, sir! Are the handles of the coffee mugs aligned at WNW as per your prior specification or is it time for my flogging?"

T vs. F is also seen as masculine vs. feminine, since 75% of females identify as F and 75% of males identify as T. So, I also have trouble sometimes getting along with sensitive IF men, because I can't do that sit quietly by the pond and listen to them talk about their sad feelings for an hour bonding thing. I start thinking about other things like "I wonder what kind of frog that is?", and then I just want to go get ice cream.

Jason
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Jason » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:46 am

Despite the gains they have made over the years, I believe women remain grossly underrepresented in two occupations: serial killers and cult leaders. I think Killing Eve is helping the former, moreso than prettying-down Charlize Theron as Aileen Wournos. With the latter, we have Mary Baker Eddy and a few 19th century end of the worlders, but no one reaching the renowned of a David Koresh or Jim Jones. Based on the response here, I see great opportunity.

Augustus
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Augustus » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:11 pm

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:55 am
I almost laughed out loud, because she offered "telling a P the right way to load the dishwasher" as an example, and I have actually gotten into major fights with 2 different very J partners over that exact issue.
As a J, I say, first judge thyself. Do you really want to fight over dishwasher loading styles? There's a lot of stuff I want to do in life, that is not one of them. It is a waste of life energy, and life energy should not be wasted. But I get it, just this morning I found that my wife had loaded it so that bowls and cups were facing UP, and are full of water. W.T.F.? But I digress.. it's not worth bothering over.

Salathor
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Salathor » Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:15 pm

Jason wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:46 am
Despite the gains they have made over the years, I believe women remain grossly underrepresented in two occupations: serial killers and cult leaders.
Something something patriarchy.

white belt
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by white belt » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:04 pm

One of the big takeaways that I got from the book Mate is the importance of your mating market:
Where you decide to live, study, work and hang out are not just random, superficial lifestyle choices. They're crucial to your success - or failure - with women. Most mating is local, so geography matters. A lot. The fact is, you can't meet the right women if you're in the wrong place.
My anecdotal experience matches up with this advice. The single male/female gender ratio around a military base is probably close to 90/10 (maybe gets down to 70/30 in the town outside of base if there is a university and/or other industry). Around a base I usually can only attract a 6 or 7 on my arbitrary 10 point scale of mate value. If I travel to a large city, I can usually get an 8 or 9, or at least get a 7 with much less effort. I know that nothing about me is changing over a weekend in another city, rather my mate value is a lot higher because the mating market is a lot more favorable for me.

I think mating markets are often overlooked when people talk about dating success. Almost all of the anecdotes I hear about a male having success without having to give much effort with dating is because they lived in an area with a very favorable mating market. I too experienced this when I lived in Taiwan as a white American who spoke Chinese. In my current line of work in the US, I'm convinced that if I wasn't on dating apps or I didn't travel to cities, I could probably go years without getting laid because of the unfavorable gender ratios in my mating market.

Mating markets give the systems thinker another dimension to try to optimize, however this can be difficult if it leads to friction with other things in your web of goals. For example, if your interests include spending a lot of time living in a remote off-grid cabin, you're going to have a harder time finding a mate because there are just less women outside of urban areas. This means the systems thinker is going to have to make some trade-offs between other parts of his web of goals in order to improve his mating system. I find this a bit frustrating, since I don't think you should have to compromise on your own interests to achieve your mating goals, but alas I think many single male ERErs have realized that an anti-fragile web of goals won't necessarily get you laid (duh?). Or perhaps I should say, an anti-fragile web of goals could get you laid, provided that you live in a favorable mating market for you.

In my military career thus far, I've been okay with living in sub-par mating markets because I find my job really rewarding. However, I wonder for how much longer I can carry on with this. I don't think I could spend the next 10 years in sub-par mating markets without feeling like I had squandered some of the most virile years of my life. Obviously my opinion could change if I were to enter a long term relationship, however I find I'm just not interested in doing that with the women I've met around bases.

Jin+Guice
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Jin+Guice » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:48 pm

@white belt: according to my gf, the New Orleans strip club (Hunk Oasis), is in need of male talent...

Crazylemon
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Crazylemon » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:15 am

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:55 am
P's have a very limited ability to focus, so when a J demands that a P use some of that hard to summon up focus on something as trivial as dishwasher loading, it's like being asked to flush your own goals down the toilet. It sometimes makes you want to scream "Leave me alone. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care about the damned dishwasher!!!" or go hide out somewhere they can't bother, bully or nag you. OTOH, on a day when you are in a better functioning mode, you might just chuckle to yourself and say " Yes, sir! Are the handles of the coffee mugs aligned at WNW as per your prior specification or is it time for my flogging?"
This really stuck out for me as I do a similar thing to my partner. Although more just getting the damn thing loaded. If there an approach that works and still gets the housework done withouts getting the, 'stop asking me to do things'? Beyond just doing more of it myself (which I sort of do anyway).

Jason
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Jason » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:10 am

Jin+Guice wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:48 pm
@white belt: according to my gf, the New Orleans strip club (Hunk Oasis), is in need of male talent...
It begs the question, is there anything that captures the Renaissance ideal more than The Vitruvian Man shaking his money maker in order to retire early?

7Wannabe5
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:00 am

@white belt:

I think there is some truth to what you are saying about mating markets, but it has been my experience that the highest level of interaction takes place in environments where there are approximately equal numbers and equal proportions of masculine and feminine energy present. For instance, when I attended an engineering school in a very rural location, even though there were many more men than women, I was rarely asked out on a date. During that same period of time, when I would take my semester and summer breaks in the large, more balanced, university center where my parents lived, I was asked out much more frequently. Quite possibly the same would hold true for a young man in a traditionally feminine setting.
crazylemon wrote:This really stuck out for me as I do a similar thing to my partner. Although more just getting the damn thing loaded. If there an approach that works and still gets the housework done withouts getting the, 'stop asking me to do things'? Beyond just doing more of it myself (which I sort of do anyway).
Well, grain of salt, because I am not an expert on MBTI, and I am only moderately P and extremely N, so it's more the detail
part of the "focus on detail" that gets to me. Also, I am a naturally messy, absent-minded person who has spent decades studying and developing systems to overcome these tendencies, so that I could function running a household and/or a business. So, I give the appearance of being a fairly neat, organized person.

So, for a P, the trick is to get the boring stuff you have to do on total auto-pilot. So, I can do the dishes as part of my morning or cooking routine without even thinking about it (almost as easily as I can walk into the kitchen and pour some coffee and eat 2 cookies without even thinking about it-lol.) But, it takes a while to get to auto-pilot on any given task, so it drives me crazy when somebody else's suggestion on how I might do it slightly better forces me to once again waste valuable attention on something so trivial. With two different J partners, I have had to say things like "Hello...I am an individual who cooked almost every meal for a family of 4 for two decades, so I think I can scramble an egg without your direction. Your choice is either get the f*ck out of the kitchen and let me do it my way or do all the cooking yourself!" IOW, sometimes Js need to brush up a bit on their delegation skills.

Anyways, I was trying to think of a way a J could get the information/control he or she needs in order to relax without overly imposing on P partner, such as myself. NJs and NPs are both very curious and future oriented, but Js are more "marching powerfully forward in a straight line towards mountain perspective" and Ps are more "exploring every side path at leisurely pace." So, if your partner is an NP, using the word "plan" won't be a problem. If your partner is also a fairly self-aware NP, using the word "focus" might even be appreciated. So, you could maybe engage your innate curiosity and ask your NP partner something like "What do you plan on focusing on today?" and then if, based on response, it seems reasonable, "Could you fit doing the dishes into your plan?"

Another factor to keep in mind is that Js are generally more "Work Hard/Play Hard" types and Ps are more "Make work fun. Make play pay." types, so it can be easy to underestimate the not-in-your-face overall productivity of a P, especially given the tendency of Js to often over-shoot the mark of optimum. For instance, my SJ partner was literally trying to tidy every twig on his wooded acreage until I pointed out the uselessness and impossibility of that task while refusing his demands to participate. My other J partner wanted me to help him develop even more rental properties even though he was already drawing more than adequate income from those we had already renovated together. That's why I pretty much don't believe most of the participants in this forum are ever going to truly "retire." It's not that easy to gear yourself down.

Fish
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Fish » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:23 am

A magazine article which says JLF is “widely credited as the OG FIRE blogger”. Not sure it’s reliable enough to be a reference for his wiki page, but the rest of the article definitely belongs in this thread.
Also, like most spaces populated almost exclusively by male nerds, the FIRE community is both overtly and implicitly sexist. FIRE bloggers almost exclusively recommend the work of other men and ground their understanding of gender and social relations in armchair evolutionary psychology and Pick-Up Artist logic.
There are frequent gripes about the “spousal problem,” i.e., the difficulty frugal males have in finding women who want a life as austere as theirs. “Do any males here have trouble attracting women? I certainly do,” user methpearice asks in a FIRE forum, adding that women look down on him because he saves 85 percent of his income.
https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/fin ... -community

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Stahlmann
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Stahlmann » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:02 am

So I'm saying hello to everybody who thinks that being white male is "easy" and I don't have anything better to do than "abusing" women.

Recently I was in situation where older lady said to me "we don't have equality yet!".

As being poor tourist (wearing 10-15 yr jacket and sweat pants) who was thinking if buying cheapest bread and yoghurt will break my budget, the whole situation was a bit amusing.

Didn't make it to the end, but somebody should contact the lady for the good of fire movement.

Also, how have you found it, fish?

Crazylemon
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Crazylemon » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:16 am

@7wb5 Thanks that gives me some things to try. Not sure if trying to improve a partnership (?optimise, ?over-optomise :? ) is necessarily healthy or not, even if primarily focusing on my actions. I hope it is

@Fish excellent find and it is true, although perhaps my only accusation is it being an excellent diagnosis with no treatment recommended. But maybe that is just me suffering from being too many Wheaton levels below on the ?relationship scale, along with I suspect most. No mention of LGBT+ relationships although I am aware that is a tiny subset of FIRE, although how small I don't know. But then I know plenty of gays who are so sexist ('cause they don't even need women to sleep with right? :? ) so it might not help the situation.
This is the most 'male' space I visit IRL or online. You can tell.

@Stahlman An individual situation is not the same as the overarching environment of society. The article is not talking about white men having it easy but FIRE environments having a near total male POV and then people being surprised that then translates in to poor hit rates with relationships. Then intellectualising this as expected and due to deficiency in other parties in an echo chamber environ.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:18 am

@Fish:

Having met JLF's better half in person, I think that article is more than a bit unfairly off-the-mark. Also, the forum link is depressing to me, because I was writing about relationship theory from the perspective of still being with my "ex", and now it is almost 5 years later, and I am contemplating breaking up with my current. Therefore, I am seriously NOT worthy of the resident relationship expert role Dragline wished to bestow on me in that thread.

@Crazylemon:

I think it is probably very good to optimize relationship, as long as that doesn't default to optimizing the human who is your relationship partner.
Also, I agree that this forum has very masculine energy, but dating a guy who hangs out here would still likely beat dating a guy who hangs out on Tumblr :lol:

Gilberto de Piento
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Gilberto de Piento » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:21 am

That article is quite the hatchet job. I'm not saying parts of it aren't true (FIRE really does seem to be male dominated, at least among gurus and forum members), but it seems to be trying to paint a picture that has very little support in order to create manufactured outrage.

Augustus
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Augustus » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:49 am

Wow, what a bitch. (The lady who wrote that article). What's funny to me is that it's basically doing what it accuses men of doing, stereotyping and belittling the opposite sex.

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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by prognastat » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:00 am

I think the lack of LGBT+ representation in the FIRE community is probably a combination of two main things, one being what you mentioned that when you intersect the percentage of LGBT+ in the general populace and the percentage of people interested in/with propensity for FIRE you end up with an extremely small percentage of people. Two they are probably more focused on other aspects of their lifestyle rather than wanting to advocate for FIRE.

As for the article it's so filled with bias, projections and contradictions that it went from annoying to kind of funny. Kind of like a so bad that it's good movie.

Cats_and_tats
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Cats_and_tats » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:55 am

That was an interesting article, and while the author was clearly exaggerating some things for comic effect, I don't really think she's wrong. Overall the community can be incredibly sexist, where pussy is seen as a commodity and women aren't treated as people.

I did have to laugh at the pick-up-artist line, as I actually read the pick-up-artist book, and there are times in the community where I read a post and think - pick-up-artist 101.

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