Random Relationship Derailment Thread

[jennypenny]

I actually think we have now come pretty close to defining it.

Creepy = Needy + Aggressive

That's good.

So are we closing in on a consensus that creepy is associated with inappropriate hormonal behavior? In men it would be aggressiveness and in women it would present as batshit, both with a needy sexual undertone. Interesting. It also might explain why age can be a factor. An older man who demonstrates the same behavior as a teenage boy might be labeled a 'creepy old man' even though the behavior might be viewed as normal for a teenager.


@guys -- There's no need to institute an iron-clad Pence rule around women. Use this information as a guide. If you know a woman is easily put off or upset, be more conscious of these specific behaviors around her. Also be aware of it with subordinates where there is already an imbalance of power or in situations where a woman might already feel vulnerable (like alone at night). When dating, I think it's ok to just come out and say "I was going to do X, but I didn't want to come off as creepy so I didn't even though I wanted to." That conveys that you know there's a creep line you don't want to cross, but you don't know where it is yet with that particular woman.

[7Wannabe5]

@Augustus:

Now who's over-reacting? Giving off a creepy vibe is not actually a recognized offense. Also, it may very well be the case that even though you are tall you rarely come off as intimidating, because, for instance, maybe you also come off as jovial.

human communication and interaction is complicated and there can be much misreading on both sides. For example, "persistence" can be a positive spin on both neediness and aggression.

True, but "persistence" can also come off as confidence or sincere interest. Also, although "alone in an elevator" is never going to be a good choice for first attempting to make a lady's acquaintance, it may often be the case that a woman is just a bit surprised or bashful when approached by an attractive stranger in an unexpected setting. I have sometimes gone deer in the headlights while slow/fast processing something like "Cute guy! Oh no, what does my hair look like? Is he flirting with me or does he really just think I look like somebody who knows how to tell if a melon is ripe?" Also, I would estimate that fully 50% of the men I have agreed to meet for coffee while online dating were quite persistent and direct in their approach. Just putting out "feelers" is rarely going to work as well as "I read your profile and it made me smile. I see that we share an interest in gardening. Are you available this Saturday afternoon to meet at the museum for coffee?" followed by "Would Sunday work better? I have been wanting to see the new exhibit." etc., until he wears down my resistance which might be based on something as trivial as the way he parted his hair in his photo.

Of course, the older I get, the more often I assume that most initiated conversations are just small talk and most minor gallant gestures are simply boy scout code behavior (sigh.)

[Kriegsspiel]

Hopefully I won't be unduly enticed by women wearing these.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... 38aa44a8f5

That lady is almost completely correct, but I would still prefer she pipe down.

[Kriegsspiel]

And here I was thinking the worse thing that could happen if you pushed the wrong button in an elevator is you end up on a different floor.

I wonder if that happened more often in the days of 'ladies lingerie' floors.

[Jason]

My luck, I'll walk into a yoga studio catering to dwarf women.

[Kriegsspiel]

Well now, we've got ourselves the start of a chart-topping erotica novel here...

[Kriegsspiel]

I honestly never could have conceived of the idea that a woman would feel threatened by a guy looking down at her, I mean, I'm tall, I look down at 95% of the population, it's not something I can help. Not in a million years would I have connected the dots on that.

Females also express a near-universal sexual preference for males who are taller than them. Erotica (hat tip to whoever said males should read some) is filled with quasi-raep and aggressive flirting.

That probably means there are other things I would never conceive of as threatening, but that would scare the crap out of people too.

Yes. It certainly seems that pretty much every aspect of their environment is threatening to some women. Going back to my first sentence, women almost universally preferring taller men; they also (universally) prefer confident men. Being confident also feels good, so that's obviously the better way to go. The way I see it, you just can't live a healthy life if you're constantly trying to be non-threatening to women.

Looking at P_K's example from a different perspective, what are the odds that Scenario 1's non-threatening guy, presenting as un-confident, possibly autistic, by staring straight ahead as he talks to you and studiously avoiding eye contact, gets laid?

Scenario 2 is more how you would act if you wanted to get laid at some point. If the female was attracted to him, it would not be "creepy" to hit on her, and if she wasn't, then it would be. Since in this example she isn't attracted to him, it's creepy for her. As a practical point, I think she should stick to short responses like "yup" or "mmhmm" instead of throwing him a bone with a whole sentence.

I get what P_K is saying, but if a male wants to get laid, he's going to have to create some sexual tension to see if she is willing to go. If she isn't, she'll have to let him know. Where P_K says some women would reverse the "creep out" scenarios, I'm obviously agreeing. So females will either be indifferent or creeped out by a Scenario 1-type male. A Scenario 2-type male will either creep them out, or have a chance at a "how did you two meet?" story. You can't even say that at least the Scenario 1 guy is more likely to avoid a sexual harassment lawsuit because of all the other things women could find creepy about him.



Like Schrodinger's cat, you'll only be sure if females can be attracted to you or creeped out by you if you talk to them.

So are we closing in on a consensus that creepy is associated with inappropriate hormonal behavior? In men it would be aggressiveness and in women it would present as batshit, both with a needy sexual undertone.

I don't think these are reciprocal versions of creepiness. I think "creepiness" is the word reserved for sexual undesirable/repulsive people. No man would categorize a batshit crazy, sexually-needy woman as "creepy" if she was hot, but if an obese woman with a mullet and a mustache was pawing you and aggressively trying to bang you I think every man would acknowledge it as being in the same category as "creepy" if you asked them. I'd suggest that more men would use the word "gross" instead of "creepy." Creepy is like "beautiful." You almost never hear a man being described as beautiful, and you'd almost never hear a female being described as creepy.

[prognastat]

I think the difference between creepy and gross is wether you are feeling scared/intimidated. If you aren't then something is gross, if you are then it's creepy.

[7Wannabe5]

No man would categorize a batshit crazy, sexually-needy woman as "creepy" if she was hot

Not a fan of Glenn Close movies, I assume?

obese woman with a mullet and a mustache was pawing you and aggressively trying to bang you I think every man would acknowledge it as being in the same category as "creepy" if you asked them

How about one who looked kind of like 11/16th of the way to Mrs. Santa Claus or "Meet the Fockers" era Barbara Streisand? Wait, wait, don't even answer. Go ask an uncle, and then get back to me.

if a male wants to get laid, he's going to have to create some sexual tension to see if she is willing to go.

True, but a reasonably mature, sexually self-aware woman should be able to do her part of the dance by signalling willingness* too.

* Of course, not to be confused with the behavior assigned to the mullet-maned female above.

[Jason]

I recall some guy had consensual sex with a women and then got a 10 page write up in some high falutin magazine over it which essentially ended his career? It was essentially the same concept as the elevator scenes above, the dude thought he was being fabio, and the girl had sex with him then regretted it and hopped on the #MeToo bandwagon to tar and feather him.

There's actually a video of that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3Yrhv33Zb8

[daylen]

But I am still dumb founded by being told earlier in this thread that denying that I am sexist is proof that I'm sexist.

Reminds me of this clip from Silicon Valley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSzmVFF58Mo

The first two seasons of that show are awesome.

[7Wannabe5]

There's just a huge witch hunt overtone in modern society.

I don't disagree. Last autumn I visited the memorial to my great^10 aunt who was hung for witchcraft. Apparently, almost up to the moment she was convicted she couldn't believe it was actually happening to her. Interesting note would be that given the small size of the colony at that time, the more living adult children an accused witch had, the less likely she would be convicted. So, maybe there could be some modern way of accumulating social capital that could be similarly protective?

That said, this analogy breaks down at the level that experience of witchcraft and experience of sexual assault reflect reality. I have been a victim of sexual assault myself, but I still think that false or irresponsible or trivial accusations are terrible, for the welfare of both men and women in our society moving forward.

[Kriegsspiel]

Not a fan of Glenn Close movies, I assume?

I'm gonna need to ask the audience on this one.

True, but a reasonably mature, sexually self-aware woman should be able to do her part of the dance by signalling willingness* too.

No argument there.

[Jason]

Pence rule is based on Billy Graham rule and has been adopted by most Evangelical Pastors. The church has an obligation to offer assistance to single women - both young and widows - and this is there way of avoiding any issues. If there is a visitation, there is always two people, sometimes two men, in attendance.

[7Wannabe5]

Well, the Pence Rule has kind of been altered from its original purpose. The subtle but important difference between "Don't go into the donut store if you don't plan on eating a donut." vs. "Don't go into the donut store, if you don't want to be accused of stealing a donut." Nobody knows better than you how subject to temptation you are, but it may be easy to err one way or the other in estimating the ill intentions or immaturity of others.

Since I was sexually assaulted on an occasion I carelessly allowed myself to be alone with a man on a first date, I follow a mild version of the Pence rule myself. However, for my own good, I try to not allow a single bad experience raise my risk aversion to the level that my overall self-interest is ill-served. Ruling out all the possible benefits of sharing conversation over a meal in public with a member of the opposite gender does seem like overkill.

[7Wannabe5]

"alone" is the key word. I can see the sense of a man or a woman not wanting to be alone in a room with someone of the opposite sex. Restaurants, coffee shops, etc all work fine since you aren't alone.

Right. Generally applicable rule of thumb is that transitional spaces are most risky, whether you are a woman out after dark, a video game player, or a deer looking for food. I always give my intuition a quick slow rational double-check before I agree to get into a car with a man I just started dating. Little things like knowing where he works, or letting him know that I have let somebody else know of my plans for the evening will add up to a greater sense of security.

[Peanut]

The biggest problem for me with Pence’s rule is not his self-policing per se but its consequences. So male staffers and underlings of his who want to get ahead are at a significant advantage if they can get more face time with him while their female peers cannot.

@Augustus: If you’re talking about Aziz Ansari, many readers including women found the write-up of his date to be an invasion of his privacy. The woman and journalist were heavily criticized. And his career has not suffered any long-lasting or significant setback.

Are there many other examples? On the other hand I think the revelations about the Cosbys, MJ, Asia Argento, raped nuns forced to have abortions, etc. are important reckonings society needs to have. So I don’t think #metoo has been like a witch hunt at all. As Idris Elba said about the climate in HW, “it’s only difficult if you’re a man with something to hide.”

[suomalainen]

1) I had my question answered to my satisfaction, so I was gonna let this go, but I do have to say one thing about this whole #metoo scare stuff. Solve this inequality:

# of women raped by men _____ # of men falsely accused of rape / sexual harassment

If the answer is even a little bit unclear, consider the fact that a "successful" crime is where there are no public repercussions for the perpetrator (no gossip, no accusation, no indictment, no conviction). Now consider that while a man can commit a "successful" rape, it is impossible for a woman to commit a "successful" false accusation of rape. In other words, rape can be "costless" for a male perpetrator, but a false accusation is not "costless" for a female perpetrator. Her life will be tossed upside down as well. See, e.g., Monica Lewinsky, who I think didn't even accuse Bill of anything.

2) As to the alone time thing, depends on what you mean by alone. If "alone" means "in my office with dozens of other offices nearby", I am alone with women all the time and it bothers me not one whit. And I have a hard time believing that any "normal" man (or better) could not generally comport himself in a manner such that *no one* would believe a woman who falsely accused him of something untoward. If "alone" means "in a hotel room", well, duh, don't do that.

3) That said, I am aware that *certain* men, far richer or more important than me, can be targeted for money or whatever. I have heard that new NBA, NFL, etc players are taught, whether formally or informally, that they should beware predatory women and should, for example, take their used condoms with them when they leave a place lest the woman dig it out of the trash and try to inseminate herself with its contents. No idea if that's true, but this concern would likely apply to a very, very small percentage of the male population (compared to, for example, the 30% or so of the female population that is sexually assaulted, last I heard).

TL;DR - rape is a real problem; false accusations of rape is not.

[suomalainen]

Meh. Reminds me of the 1. X 2. ? 3. Profit! meme.

1. Discussion of complex issues
2. ?
3. Participant claims he has been accused of being a "rape is a problem" denier.

I don't think my post could even be read cynically to suggest you were denying that rape is a problem. The juxtaposition of the two "problems" was to show how it can be difficult to discuss one issue without some people flipping the discussion to "well, you think YOU have it bad? Let me tell you about THIS!" See, e.g., your initial post on this subtopic on how the discussions of creepy behavior was making YOU afraid to be alone with a woman; hence, adopting the Pence. At most, I was accusing you of not being able to discuss an issue affecting others without making it about yourself. But really it wasn't even that, I was doing what I just "accused" you of doing - I ignored your point to make my own (that #metoo victimhood is overplayed).

In any event, since it's a very real problem for you, if you don't mind my asking, how many times have you been falsely accused of sexual misconduct, what happened and how were they resolved?

[slowtraveler]

A bit shit crazy, violent woman would definitely fall under creepy no matter how physically attractive. Threatening or trying to hurt me will kill my attraction, hot cannot stand on its own

I've actually met with many woman like this, I'd take a slight drop in initial attractiveness for sanity and great communication skills any day.