Random Relationship Derailment Thread

How to explain ERE, arranging family matters
Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

CS wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:43 pm
I will say though, having to have a separate area for this sort of talk reminds me of Bernie BS Sanders. "Stop distracting us with your irrelevant Wymin issues!" complete with a waggin' old white man finger. :lol: :lol: :lol: Nope. They ARE the relevant issues... get with the program.
I agree, waggin’ young Hispanic woman finger or waggin’ middle-aged black woman finger is the true source of authority, and dissenters should get with the program....or else.

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Jean
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Jean »

One good friend of mine prostituted herself. She wanted money to go on hollydays for the whole winter and as she thought she liked sex a lot, she thought it would be enjoyable. It was easy and safe money, but it wasn't as fun as she expected. Clients were nice but boring, (but not worse than tinder dates).

7Wannabe5
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

When I rented a room and office space from a male ENTP friend who fancied himself to be like Richard Feynman, he often rented out one of his other rooms to an escort, he dated another escort, and he allowed strippers to borrow his laundry facilities. The two escorts I knew the best were both late 20 something year old daughters of Jewish academics. One had a significant drug problem and the other wanted to save up the money she made through sex work to buy some land to camp on with her circle of Grateful Dead head friends. Neither of them looked like stereotypical high end escort, more like young moms at hippie co-op nursery, but they both worked out of expensive hotels in Detroit and D.C. and charged around $350/hr (this was around 10 years ago.) Their clientele was highly varied and included attractive, very busy young entrepreneur who wanted travel companion to Amsterdam, extremely overweight train engineer who for some reason also gave my escort friend all the free batteries she could possibly use (she shared some with me), middle-aged politicians, and older local guy whose wife hadn't had sex with him in 20 years.

This was during my early post-divorce period when I was spending money on getting my hair done and sometimes wearing heels (kind of a Samantha from Sex in the City look), so my escort friend told me I could easily get clients if I wanted, because lots of older men want somebody who isn't obviously too young to be seen with in public. She also told me that men don't pay for the sex; they pay for the "pretty."

prognastat
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by prognastat »

No full on prostitutes here(that I know of, it's very possible someone could be doing it on the down low). Some part-time and wannabe camgirls though yes.

As for sugar babies/sugar daddies my understanding is that the relationship is somewhat between a regular relationship and prostitution. There isa more direct exchange of sex/involvement for resources than in a regular relationship, but it's more involved and often more exclusive than the relationship between a prostitute and a john.

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C40
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by C40 »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:18 pm
Does anyone here have any real world experience with sex workers as a 1) Sex Worker 2) John 3) Romantic Partner 4) Friend/ Acquaintance?
Yes

Jason

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Jason »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:18 pm
Does anyone here have any real world experience with sex workers as a 1) Sex Worker 2) John 3) Romantic Partner 4) Friend/ Acquaintance? I believe it is generally well accepted that sugar babies are sex workers.

Real world experience? Sorry, no. But I did have an angelic sex worker visitation. She looked just like Marcia Brady, only damaged. And she wore an army jacket to cover the whiskey bottle she smuggled down with her.

Riggerjack
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Riggerjack »

Cross post from another thread, but it comes up quite a bit.
Also the female attention derived from wearing noticeably more expensive fashion isn't the kind of female attention I want.
And plenty of other posts of a similar nature (filtering potential mates by not sending false signals) keep coming up.

Yes, this works, but...

Back in the old days when I was dating, I would go out with a friend of mine, Georgia. She was physically and socially way outside my league, but going out with me meant having a large male friend around for her, and a designated driver for me.

We developed a very successful routine. Walk into the club together, get drinks and a table together, scout the talent and comment on the other's choices. Women's opinions on women are very different from what I was noticing, and I tried to reciprocate.

Then we'd dance together. Which was also much more impressive on her part than mine. :oops:

Afterwards, we'd fake a disagreement, and she or I would spend the rest of the evening at the bar, leaving space at the table.

I found I was far, far more successful after that little charade. Georgia's take was that women pay a lot of attention to women. So a guy with a woman out of his league who can blow her off; will be far more attractive to other women. Those women will be wondering what she saw in him. That the ladies I was actually looking for weren't in Georgia's league also helped, I'm sure. That I was still concerned that she finished the night with safety, seemed to seal a few deals. 8-)

The point of the above story is that when dating, ALL female attention is helpful, as the more I had, the easier it was to get more. And it helped me move from a scarcity mindset to a more selective hunter's mindset. Also very helpful.

This was 25 years ago, so maybe everything is different now. But I doubt it.

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Stahlmann
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Stahlmann »

yep, in 2010 it was called "having wing partner" in PUA lingo.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Right. Upside to committed polyamory is having a permanent wing partner.

Early in our relationship, my BF and I attended an extremely lame event for middle-aged singles together/apart. After 10 minutes, we just ended up back at a table together, because the only other reasonably attractive people at the bar were the members of the band and their significant others.

white belt
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by white belt »

This thread has piqued my curiosity and I've done some cursory research into male sex work. I think it could fit into a web of goals of someone who enjoys weightlifting and eating healthy, and has somewhat of an entrepreneurial nature.

Here's what I have found from an hour or so of Googling:

Stripper
It appears the most money is in stripping for private parties, which can pay ~$200-$300 per party for some driving and an hour or so of work. Requirements are to be muscular and be able to put on a good show. This is probably more profitable in big cities with high population densities. It seems typical to work 1-3 parties in a night, almost always on Friday and Saturday nights. That could mean over $1k for two nights of work, which I know would cover a typical forumite's expenses for a whole month. A car is required it seems depending on the location. If you're working with an agency to get bookings, they will take a cut. Web developing and marketing skills could come in handy for promoting yourself, or make friends with other strippers who have connections.

Stripping as part of a male revue or at a strip club seems to provide more regular hours, however wages are much lower.

Male Prostitute
This one is harder to do research on, but from what I read I think there is actually more money in stripping unless you are willing to take on male clients. The demand for male prostitutes is just so much lower than for female prostitutes. In the US, there are of course legal risks with this line of work as well.

Sugar baby
Experiences seem to vary widely. Some get allowances of $1k+ a month, expensive meals, and gifts. It seems like each arrangement varies and I'm just unsure of the supply/demand (I would think there are plenty of young men who need money and fewer older women who are looking for such arrangements). It also seems hard to gauge the commitment required since it really starts to blur the line between working and a relationship. One relationship could easily cover a forumite's monthly expenses.

Lentil baby
No sources with this one other than 7W5's comments above.


I'd be really curious if any males have any experience with the above professions or knows anyone that has experience.


Edit: I forgot porn:

Porn Star
Male porn stars average $500 per day of work at major studio productions, although I'm uncertain how many hours that requires (I'm assuming 2-4 hours). However, getting consistent work from big porn studios requires one to live in the greater Los Angeles area. Additionally, the availability of widespread free internet porn is hemorrhaging profits for the big studios. One could go the entrepreneurial route and create their own website/videos. However, this requires you to have access to and a budget to pay attractive female performers. I'm unsure of how much work is involved to make a profit in the amateur porn space since I imagine it's hypercompetitive thanks to low barriers to entry.

Kriegsspiel
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Kriegsspiel »

Stahlmann wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:35 pm
yep, in 2010 it was called "having wing partner" in PUA lingo.
FWIW, he is describing a 'pivot,' not a wing.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@white belt:

It's much more common for a heterosexual man to be hired by a couple than a solo female. Of course, the market is such that many "bulls" offer their services gratis, so presenting yourself as very clean-cut and "coachable" would likely be the differential. Also, definitely illegal unless approached in very low-key barter manner, like if you were willing to trade for just dinner and drinks or maybe some travel accommodations. Generally, the male half of the couple will be shopping and "paying", but the female half will be the decider.

Jason

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Jason »

white belt wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:50 pm
Requirements are to be muscular and be able to put on a good show.
I think you may be overlooking one other important attribute.

And if you happen by chance to blessed with said attribute, then this is the man to model.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porfirio_Rubirosa

white belt
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by white belt »

@Jason

Actually from what I've read, for a male stripper that attribute is not that much of a factor. Confidence and physical fitness are most important. I think for porn that attribute is more of a factor.

Interesting case study. I wonder if you could replicate his strategy in the modern age. From his Wikipedia article, he was married 5 times and scored the following from divorces with extremely wealthy women:
Doris Duke, American heiress, September 1, 1947 – October 1948; with marital gifts and final settlement he received an alimony ($25,000 per year until remarriage), a fishing fleet off Africa, several sports cars, a converted B-25 bomber (La Ganza), and a 17th-century house in Rue de Bellechasse, Paris

Barbara Hutton, American heiress, December 30, 1953 – February 20, 1954; in the settlement he received a coffee plantation in the Dominican Republic, another B-25, polo ponies, jewelry, and a reported $2.5 million.
25k in 1947 dollars is almost 300k today.

Rubirosa had political connections at the highest levels in the Dominican Republic, and parlayed his diplomatic position to get access to the wealthiest of women. At the time, societal pressures for marriage were much greater and prenups non-existent which allowed him to profit enormously from divorce settlements. I also find it interesting that he never had any children (my uneducated guess is he was probably infertile).

I guess I just don't see how a man would get access to very wealthy women without being very wealthy himself or at least having powerful connections. Additionally, one statistic I came across is that 85.4% of single millionaire women would prefer to date another millionaire man and millionaire women are more likely to demand a prenup. If you don't have wealth or connections, maybe one option is to work in a job that puts you in close proximity to the women as "the help" in some form? For the ERE male living on <15k a year and pursuing this strategy (lentil baby?!), having a partner that is only moderately affluent and not incredibly wealthy might be sufficient.

Note that I haven't tried implementing any of these strategies, I just enjoy the thought experiment. Also my mind is constantly challenged/intrigued by 7W5's lifestyle and I'm trying to figure out what an implementation of some of her strategies could look like for my very different web of goals and circumstances.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

white belt wrote:For the ERE male living on <15k a year and pursuing this strategy (lentil baby?!), having a partner that is only moderately affluent and not incredibly wealthy might be sufficient.
Right. It's all relative. Even I could have a lentil baby, if I could locate a man who was content at maybe approximately $3000/year lifestyle. My Permaculture Partner was kind of like my lentil baby within that small context, but he ended up doing so much of the work I felt compelled by fairness to give him some equity. Just like my "ex" felt compelled by fairness to write me into his will and occasionally write me a check, because I was helping him out so much with his business.

It's important to recognize that becoming a "lentil baby" it is only very rarely going to be an efficient choice in terms of earnings+savings per hour at marginal possible wage rate to be earned elsewhere, and to the extent that you are performing labor of any kind within the boundaries of another individual's domain, you will not be increasing equity except to the extent that achieved savings in current living expenses allows you to let funds or businesses invested or established elsewhere continue to grow without need for draw down and/or taxation.

Also, I wouldn't describe anything I have done as a successful strategy. My life is more like a very nerdy version of a Lucille Ball comedy.

Jason

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Jason »

white belt wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:41 pm
Note that I haven't tried implementing any of these strategies, I just enjoy the thought experiment.
And this year's Academy Award for "Best Excuse When Caught Masturbating To Fetish Porn" goes to...White Belt!!!!

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

Someone I know had a male professor who shouted at the beginning of a lecture “NEVER MARRY A WOMAN FOR MONEY BECAUSE YOU’LL HAVE TO EARN EVERY FUCKING PENNY!”

white belt
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by white belt »

@7W5

After re-reading your original "sugar baby vs. lentil baby" post, I think I would primarily be interested in being a sugar baby. Although I would say ERE has taught me many skills that could make me a valuable lentil baby, I think a partner would quickly find me overbearing if I were to suggest or implement things to make her life more efficient. Part of being in INTJ means I can have some pretty strong opinions on the "correct" way of doing something, so I've learned to keep my mouth shut and not offer advice unless asked for it.

A sugar baby lifestyle might work. The problem with that is that I don't really have any interest in expensive restaurant meals or designer goods, which seem to be the most common forms of payment in such an arrangement. Grassfed meat and free range eggs on the other hand would be perfect.

I would probably only explore one of these arrangements after leaving full-time work with a minimum of 20x net worth. Really I just see it as another possible income stream in my semi-retirement.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@white belt:

Whether you are a lentil baby or a sugar baby or something in between, you still have to learn how to be good in the follow. That is pretty much the primary requirement of the job. I would suggest that you pick up some books written prior to 1970 on the topic of how to be a good wife or girlfriend, or some much earlier works on the topic of how to be a good steward or bondsman, or maybe something on the topic of how to succeed as a young salaryman in Japan, or maybe even something on the topic of how to be a strong submissive in the SM scene or geisha.

Anyways, it has been my experience that implementing or suggesting "efficiencies" is usually appreciated to the extent that these efficiencies are in alignment with the purpose of other. For example, my "ex" prided himself on being a jovial host, so he would not have appreciated suggestion that he entertain fewer house-guests, but he was amazed and highly appreciative on the occasion I threw together last-minute party for 16 for only $80.

Start out by focusing on only listening for direct instruction to fulfill, and then after you have established trust, you can free-style a bit more.

I agree with your notion that best as part-time occupation, because not very many people want to be in the follow all the time, no matter how lucrative or conserving of resources. That said, it is actually easier to be strong in the follow if you are also confident in the lead within other contexts.

Also, if you want to be "paid" in grassfed meat and free-range eggs, maybe your best bet would be just to volunteer at an organic farm.

Jason

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Jason »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:15 am
@white belt:

or maybe even something on the topic of how to be a strong submissive in the SM scene
I would think a white belt would already have a lot of experience taking orders from someone with a black belt.

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