ERE shaming

How to explain ERE, arranging family matters
classical_Liberal
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Re: ERE shaming

Post by classical_Liberal »

prognastat wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:01 am
To admit that you would be able to do it is to admit that they woud be able to, but are choosing not to inadvertently through their daily choices. That's not something most want to accept.
This is why I've found, if the subject is broached, provide them an "out". Then they tend to be less confused and/or outright aggressively negative about your situation. Personally, my favorite is kids. Since most people my age (30-40's) have them at home and I do not. When someone wonders how it's possible to go for so long without income, I basically respond that I don't have many "bills" and "you have to remember, I dont have kids". This provides them the mental space to think that I'm somehow very different than them. ie they could be me, except kids are expensive. And to some degree there is truth to it.

Depending on personal situation, the "kids" excuse may not work. Still, you can find something that does. Then, only the most interested will inquire further, and those tend to be the folks that are more open minded. You've given the 99% of others an excuse to not hate you or blame themselves and life can move on.

horsewoman
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Re: ERE shaming

Post by horsewoman »

classical_Liberal wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:24 am
This is why I've found, if the subject is broached, provide them an "out".
Absolutely! I do have a kid so that avenue does not work 100% for me, but I use our beater cars. I live in Bavaria (AKA The home of BMW), where driving a tiny old FIAT gets you sympathy points all the time. Poor me!

frihet
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Re: ERE shaming

Post by frihet »

For some reason I am rereading this thread and as I have been thinking about making a thread about shame/guilt as social control I post here instead.

What is the real problem? That people have opinions, no, that will always be the case.

That we need to give them a conversational out so they can live with themselves? Yes that can be a way to make social interactions run smoother.

But I would argue that the main problem is that most of us find it so difficult to feel strong “negative” emotions. That is the main problem here if op could just let shame arise feel it completely and let it pass through him then he would discover that beneath every strong emotion, “good or bad”, lies pure energy and a source of power.

That is the path of transmutation, a life long adventure and I would even argue that it is the next Wheaton level to deal with this “problem”.

ertyu
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Re: ERE shaming

Post by ertyu »

I don't think it's about giving them an out. I think what it is is, most people, when they meet someone who is zealous and successful with a goal - weight, savings, you name it - feel like you will look down on them for not having been successful. So do tell them, "remember, I don't have kids," but as a means of letting them know you don't judge them and you accept them and their choices, not as a means of "giving them an out so they can keep making excuses to themselves about being a fail at this."

In the end, we all have choices. I can choose to be fat and not work on it, or to be in debt and not work on it. Someone else might think I should work on it, it might even be objectively "good" to work on it, but to me, our individual liberty trumps all. So everyone is free to choose to work on a goal or not, and they still fundamentally deserve respect - the way they lead their life might not be the way I think is good to lead a life, but I can only make choices about my life. They get to make choices about their lives. They get to decide what to work on and when. Respecting that right is a very fundamental value of mine. I don't make choices for others, and they don't get to make choices for me. They may think I'm making a bad choice, but "hey man, I'd have done differently in your shoes but it's your life and I respect your right to lead it as you think is right" is a overriding value.

zork97
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Re: ERE shaming

Post by zork97 »

frihet wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:47 pm
For some reason I am rereading this thread and as I have been thinking about making a thread about shame/guilt as social control I post here instead.

What is the real problem? That people have opinions, no, that will always be the case.

That we need to give them a conversational out so they can live with themselves? Yes that can be a way to make social interactions run smoother.

But I would argue that the main problem is that most of us find it so difficult to feel strong “negative” emotions. That is the main problem here if op could just let shame arise feel it completely and let it pass through him then he would discover that beneath every strong emotion, “good or bad”, lies pure energy and a source of power.

That is the path of transmutation, a life long adventure and I would even argue that it is the next Wheaton level to deal with this “problem”.

Thank you for this.

frihet
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Re: ERE shaming

Post by frihet »

zork97 wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:10 am
Thank you for this.
You are welcomed. Here you can read more about it. Actually this might be even more advanced than just learning to be with strong emotion. And to be honest I haven’t yet learned to practice what is being described here myself. Even though I’m quite good at finding feelings as physical sensation in the body, something one of my teachers emphasize a lot.

http://arobuddhism.org/articles/embraci ... -path.html

“The practice of meditation in the context of embracing emotions as the path gives us another option. This option is one in which we neither repress, express nor dissipate our emotional energy. But one in which we let go of the conceptual scaffolding and wordlessly gaze into the physical sensation of the emotion. This is what we describe as 'staring into the face of arising emotions in order to realise their empty nature’. This is where meditation becomes an essential aspect of our method of discovery. The form of meditation we will discuss here comes from the system known as Trèk-chöd, which means ‘exploding the horizon of conventional reality’. Trèk-chöd involves finding the presence of awareness in the dimension of the sensation of the emotion we are experiencing. Simply speaking, we find the location of the emotion within the body (it may be localised or pervasive). This is where we feel the emotion as a physical sensation. We then allow that sensation to expand and pervade us. We become the emotion. We cease to be observers of our emotions. We stare into the face of the arising emotion with such completeness that all sense of division between ‘experience’ and ‘experiencer’ dissolve. In this way we open ourselves to glimpses of what we actually are. We start to become transparent to ourselves. Through this staring, the distorted energy of our emotions liberates itself. “

TopHatFox
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Re: ERE shaming

Post by TopHatFox »

Just get some hobbies. You don’t have to travel half-way across the world to be interesting

davtheram12
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Re: ERE shaming

Post by davtheram12 »

thegreatvoid wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:20 am
So lately I have been told by multiple people, including my sister and my mom, that " I don´t have a life " or " I´m not living life ".
To which I would respond "okay?" while giving them a puzzled look. I've had people make the same remarks to me and when asked to explain themselves they either can't answer me or don't have a valid enough reason to justify the accusations. I've developed pretty tough skin over the years and suggest you practice brushing off comments like that.
thegreatvoid wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:20 am
Off course my life seems a little unorthodox or uneventful , in comparison to the average worker bee / consumer. I don´t go out to bars or date, I don´t spend a fortune on 5 star luxury vacations to South Africa or Cuba like the rest of my family members does, These days I just live a very quiet life.
Nothing wrong with that. You have your preferences and they have theirs.
thegreatvoid wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:20 am
So what actually constitutes a LIFE LIVED ?

Has anyone else on this forum dealt with shaming and insult like this. And why is it that the most hurtful words always come from family members.
That will take some introspection on your part. Try to dig deep when it comes to this. Many people have trouble with this because their thoughts are in fact someone else's.

I've always been the 'WEIRD ONE' my whole life. For the longest I was very good about blending-in until I eventually got tired of lying to myself. I knew I was just going along with the motions that were expected of me. It brought a lot of turmoil and anguish knowing I wasn't living MY BEST LIFE. Now that I've learned to laugh off those types of 'insults' life has become better. People who appreciated my desire for ERE and frugality now know that when I do things it's because I WANT TO and don't feel obligated to out of 'TRADITION' or 'BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE DO'. It will get better and you will be happy you decided to live YOUR LIFE :)

WingsOnFire
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Re: ERE shaming

Post by WingsOnFire »

I think, rather than try to explain my ERE, I will just say that I'm an artist to those that don't know me and ask me what I do, and to family who does know me, I can say I make some money with my business and art. (Perhaps I'll add "and with my investments" if they are nice :) )
Which is true and will be true, it may not always be much but not nothing either. Only if someone seems truly interested to talk about ERE / FI in a positive way will I get into it more. I can say: "I own my house so I don't need that much money".
I think the people who will try to shame or judge, are probably envious or something. Maybe they feel judged, and ashamed of their own consumerism, lifestyle choices and debt.

nomadscientist
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Re: ERE shaming

Post by nomadscientist »

I find part of the fun is not having to explain.

In the past year at least one person has taken me aside and advised me to save some money. Admittedly a 72% savings rate is no great boast around these parts, but...

Efficiency of spending applies to everything, including more mainstream or fancy tastes. I have a few fancy tastes, and indulge them on a modest budget. People see these things and think I must be spending more than I earn. They don't seem to realise the few luxuries where I hunt down deals do not cost me nearly as much as their brand new mid range SUV replaced every three years, their six bedroom house for household of four, etc.

Some people are ascetics; that's fine. Some people also do need to get out more, ERE or no ERE.

FruGal61
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Re: ERE shaming

Post by FruGal61 »

WingsOnFire wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:02 pm
I think the people who will try to shame or judge, are probably envious or something. Maybe they feel judged, and ashamed of their own consumerism, lifestyle choices and debt.
Or maybe they're just a$$holes? :D

I wonder about this a lot. Probably too much. Why do people feel the need to judge me based on my things, my where/how I live, my lifestyle, my occupation, my "worth". Is it envy? Were they abused emotionally as children? Do they have deep seated self-hatred for whatever godforsaken reason? A need to win or feel superior to others? But why? Why can't they just live and let live? Whatever it is, it is very unpleasant to deal with.

You definitely need a thick skin to deal with the shaming that goes on when you choose an alternative lifestyle, ERE or you just don't enjoy shopping/consuming and/or being in debt. I've experienced a fair amount of shaming in the last several years when I failed to achieve the beautiful, tastefully decorated mortgaged_to_the_hilt home that everyone thinks I should have. Well, I could have it, I could buy it tomorrow with cash and get to work on it, but I'm just not interested. The pressure. I thought I made it clear years ago that I enjoyed free time more than stuff but when you get to a certain age and you don't have the right stuff to show off, you find yourself not being a member of "the club". I truly feel defined by my possessions and not in a good way.

Thankfully, there are still some kindred spirit, non-materialist weirdos hacking about. Mostly, I just hang out by myself and will confess, I love the isolation that the pandemic has provided. Day by day, I'm workin' on it, letting all this angst go....I yearn for peace of mind and I will, I will get there. Thanks for letting me vent.

daylen
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Re: ERE shaming

Post by daylen »

Shaming is primarily a social emergence phenomenon where most individuals do not have a clear cut reason for participation (consciously or unconsciously) asides from following the crowd. Such crowds may or may not be influenced by a set of hidden attractors.

ertyu
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Re: ERE shaming

Post by ertyu »

FruGal61 wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:32 pm
Why do people feel the need to judge me based on my things, my where/how I live, my lifestyle, my occupation, my "worth". Is it envy? Were they abused emotionally as children? Do they have deep seated self-hatred for whatever godforsaken reason? A need to win or feel superior to others? But why? Why can't they just live and let live?
Because it feels good to them to find others inferior and less-than. Being judgmental is inherently pleasurable. Kinda like why abusers abuse: feeling powerful feels good.

Sticking your nose in other people's business also feels good. Sticking your nose into other people's business and finding something weird/unusual, even more so (see tabloids).

tl;dr: we're just shit as a species

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unemployable
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Re: ERE shaming

Post by unemployable »

You will become way less concerned with what other people think of you when you realize how seldom they do. -- David Foster Wallace

ertyu
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Re: ERE shaming

Post by ertyu »

unemployable wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:00 am
You will become way less concerned with what other people think of you when you realize how seldom they do. -- David Foster Wallace
In my experience this isn't true. We judge each other all the fucking time, and one of our favorite things is finding others inferior. Could have something to do with the size of where you live and the level of mobility dictated by local culture, but in my home town, the same people have been stuck here for the last 40 years in this small boring backwater hole, having nothing better to do. Your "image" in the eyes of others acquires an oversized importance. People discuss each other. People play stupid games dissing each other for ego gains. Could be the best way to rephrase this might be, if you want others to think seldom of you, move to a bigger city where people have a fucking life.

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Re: ERE shaming

Post by unemployable »

I think you suck for worrying about them. What are they gonna do that's so horrible, not invite you to Friday night's cockfight?

(I don't think you suck. Actually I don't give a rat's ass. Wasn't as funny as I thought it would be.)

ertyu
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Re: ERE shaming

Post by ertyu »

I personally am an exception because I worked abroad and accumulated savings, and I'm always "one foot out," ready to leave again at short notice. So, I in particular don't worry about them because I know little in my life depends on their opinion. But whenever I return, every 4-5 years or so, people seem awfully eager to compare themselves to me and very pleased to find me lacking. I guess it has to do with how I left and they didn't, and they look at me and see this fat, balding, middle-aged office dweeb who, in their eyes, isn't nearly that cool and needs to be brought down a notch. This is a very different dynamic from that in, say, NYC or Berlin, where people wouldn't be thinking about how to bring you down, they'll be wondering about how to lift themselves up: e.g., in NYC, through furthering their career, and in Berlin by making cool connections in the local hipster art scene.

Your outcomes in a small place depend on the opinions of others. This is not who I am as a person, but I remember both male and female acquaintances of mine passing over dating prospects that aren't "cool enough" because they don't want this to reflect on the perception of their own coolness and impact their future dating prospects. Guys are notorious for this everywhere - what would my mates think if she isn't hot - but I was surprised to discover my female acquaintances be concerned with this, too. You read this and you think, god what immature bs, don't most people grow out of this in high school - but in a small middle-of-nowhere town, no they don't. Here is an example from 2 weeks ago. A classmate of mine, while hanging out with other classmates, resorts to schoolyard bullying: "Come on, ertyu, go get the beers, might serve you well to get some exercise hahaha." Why? Dude enjoys it. Later on, we move on to a different bar and I meet another friend of his I don't know. My classmate talks me up - how many countries I've been to, etcetera. Why? He needs to justify associating with such an apparent loser, or else, his acquaintance might see him as uncool by association. I spent this entire night mildly bemused at the level of effort people invested in games like these - how much effort and manoeuvring goes into impressing the other 50-60 village bumpkins they're stuck with. I then decided I'll not spend much time with this classmate because games like these are not where I want to invest my energy in life - but I can only do this because I have the option to leave the town. Most who stay here know that they don't have the option to say, "i will spend less time with this person" because this person will always be at one of the 2 or 3 places everyone gathers to hang out.

I guess the tl;dr: here is the smaller the place you live in, the more your social image contributes to your outcomes. What they will do that's so awful is keep bullying you whenever you decide to go socialize. And while you can say we're adults and shouldn't pay attention to this shit, constantly being in a hostile environment takes its toll. There's no winning this game - "I told him he's a loser so he cleaned up his act (by implication, to impress me and gain my good opinion) is a favorite, of my father as well as of the local town bullies. You're not gonna hear, "oh, that guy really turned his life and health around, good on him, glad to see it" because people are small and so is their world. The only way to "win" the game is abandon it in its entirety and leave, which is what I have chosen. i find myself back in my home town for reasons of covid + stash is too small to afford living elsewhere if i stop working now. I will take 6 more months or so, and then I'll see what makes me feel more exhausted - the thought of working again, or the thought of my family, my classmates and their bullshit.

IlliniDave
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Re: ERE shaming

Post by IlliniDave »

I probably deposited $0.02 in this thread before. As a preemptive response to any fact checking, I'll just say people and situations change.

This isn't in the context of shaming, but as that day approaches the group of people I've had retirement-related discussions with has broadened. I just respond to certain lines of questions/responses by saying that what makes me different from my loose peer group (anyone with enough income to achieve or surpass what I've done in a roughly equivalent time frame) is that I made a plan and followed it very intentionally. That it didn't 'just happen'. I don't think I've upset anyone by saying that. I've never detected any resentment in the conversations. It might be because nowadays most of the new conversations are with colleagues that are younger then my youngest daughter, so they don't have decades expended and feelings that they missed the opportunity.

Shaming is a manipulation tactic that can be very heavy-handed. It's sort of a soft banishment. It can be extremely useful in maintaining an orderly society, but it has a dark underbelly that can turn into pathological bullying, especially when mixed with mob dynamics. I'd guess very few people could stand up to it at it's irrational peak. In more subtle forms, just about anyone who is at peace with themselves has had to shuck off quite a bit over a lifetime. I'm frequently hit with shaming attacks, mainly for things I haven't done or am powerless to change. The sort of stuff that's en vogue. It's just not directly related to frugality/early retirement/low key lifestyle. I occasionally stand my ground when it goes too far, but mostly I just ignore it.

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Re: ERE shaming

Post by unemployable »

Sounds like it would behoove you to pick better friends.

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Re: ERE shaming

Post by Alphaville »

ertyu wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:30 am
In my experience this isn't true. We judge each other all the fucking time, and one of our favorite things is finding others inferior. Could have something to do with the size of where you live and the level of mobility dictated by local culture, but in my home town, the same people have been stuck here for the last 40 years in this small boring backwater hole, having nothing better to do. Your "image" in the eyes of others acquires an oversized importance. People discuss each other. People play stupid games dissing each other for ego gains. Could be the best way to rephrase this might be, if you want others to think seldom of you, move to a bigger city where people have a fucking life.
there’s an expression in spanish: “pueblo chico, infierno grande.” (small town, big hell). they even made a soap opera with that title:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pueblo_ch ... rno_grande

lmao. i can confirm this to be true. the reason stories are a mode of cognition in itself is because apparently the human brain runs on gossip. hence, the popularity of tabloids.

happens in new york too though. e.g., see (or more accurately, listen): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7gBPBBZHw4

but yeah in a small town there is nowhere to run to.

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