Wargaming

How to pass, fit in, eventually set an example, and ultimately lead the way.
Salathor
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Wargaming

Post by Salathor »

Does anyone here do any computer (or board) wargaming of the ASL, Combat Commander, War in the East, The Operational Art of War, etc. variety? I have been getting into it over the past few years and it's really a great hobby that combines the best parts of chess with the best parts of learning any historical subject. Lots of fun, lots of research, and the $/hr for entertainment is incredibly low.

If you do play, what strategies have you used to find opponents in real life, and do you find that you play more with a single player or do you have a group/club that you play with?

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Re: Wargaming

Post by jacob »

I played/owned the board version of ASL in undergraduate. Mostly with classmates staying late after classes. Never really got "fluent" or executing strategies beyond "exchanging shots from behind cover". WH40k gained a bit more traction (and somewhat more nuanced tactics) ... still it was hard driving to organize games that always lasted a minimum of 2 hrs. Magic the Gathering was much more popular.

In terms of my CCCCCC development:
ASL: C-CC
WH40k: CC-CCC
MtG: CCCC-CCCCC

white belt
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Re: Wargaming

Post by white belt »

I played WH40k and MtG in the mid 2000s. I've played MtG a few times since then but nothing major.

I liked WH40k for the 3 dimensionality and strategy.* I used to play at a local comic book store which would be a popular gathering place for wargamers every Saturday. It was nice to have a community element and multiple options for opponents.

I think WH40k scratches an analytical itch for a certain type of person, but it can turn into an expensive hobby. The models are expensive, the paints are expensive, the books are expensive, hell everything is expensive. If you want to play at home you have to build your own giant 4x8 board and terrain pieces, which usually isn't cheap either. Certainly there are ways to cut costs by using offbrand paints and maybe some used models, but even then it's hard because most models are heavily customized. Depending on your interests, the assembling and painting of your own models can either be your favorite part of the game that allows you to use your artistic side, or a time-consuming distraction to doing the real fun of fighting other people's armies. There's also the issue of matches taking 2-4 hours that Jacob alluded to, but I found having a community gathering place and time to play makes it easier to schedule matches in advance.

I'm tempted to get into MtG again. Although it isn't as breathtaking as maneuvering models in 3D and seeing the board in front of you, it does scratch the analytical itch enough and provides some more visual/imaginative stimulation than something like chess. Costs** (both financial and environmental) are much lower than 40k because cards can easily be purchased used, don't require any assembly or painting, are easily portable, and can be resold for roughly the same value as what you paid for them. I also think that MtG is one of the most popular games in the world, which means that finding local groups to play with is relatively easy (and you can easily play online). You can also play on any table, unlike 40k which requires specialized equipment. Games are shorter, which I think may make things a little more social since you can play with more people in a day and it's less of a time commitment. If you want to get competitive, there are things like booster pack tournaments that require you to exercise some different brain function to build a deck/strategy on the fly.

I'd be curious to get the thoughts from any active MtG players on the forums.

* = interestingly enough I eventually ended up maneuvering real soldiers in my military career, which I found to be analytically taxing but also rewarding in a similar way to wargaming

** = games with re-usable pieces like chess and weiqi will of course be more economical (and have more balanced metagame at least until everyone just copies what AI does), but you don't get the fun of customizing your own army/deck

Salathor
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Re: Wargaming

Post by Salathor »

Jacob--ASL is THE game I would love to be into but am sure I would never be able to find an opponent. A couple of times a year I go to the company website to drool over the sets and the massive arrays of counters, though. I keep trying to talk my wife or brother into Combat Commander (a similar but slightly less intimidating game) but don't get much positive feedback!

White Belt--I am not now, but I have been a fairly active MTG player in the past (drafted every week for a few years in college at my local game store, won or placed in top 3 regularly, enough to be 'profitable'). I haven't played it in about 10 years, but it's very good as a game (although can be expensive depending on format) and it's easy to find an opponent. I recently sold all of my cards on facebook for too little (in retrospect). I have a friend who was a competitive-level player and his decks usually cost ~$400 each. A lot pricier than the $10-15 per week I spent drafting.

My wife and I switched from MTG to the Lord of the Rings card game many years ago. It's all the fun of Magic, but fully cooperative (good for marriages!) and doesn't have the same 'blind buy' element that can cost so much money. Instead, it went with more of a DLC style system where they released a single small pack every month that came with fixed cards in it. For $10 per month you could buy everything the game had. Potentially cheaper in the long run (and I love LOTR).

I have been attracted to miniatures wargaming before (I bought a 40k starter set many years ago), but I think 15mm scale generic WW2 minis would be more my speed (literally an order of magnitude or more cheaper than 40k, but obviously more difficult to find a game). The fact that I'm wildly untalented at painting doesn't help! I suspect someone with a 3d printer and an eye for good design could do awesome things in the miniatures wargaming scene.

SavingWithBabies
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Re: Wargaming

Post by SavingWithBabies »

This might not be what you're looking for at all (more time on computer instead of playing with people directly) but there is another option which is Tabletop Simulator (on Steam but also a Steam key is onsale at Humble for $10). It's been a little controversial in that the developer/studio has a simulator that you can play any game on and mods (modifications) are available from individual users that offer many games for free. The controversial part is that if I want to play say Settlers of Catan, I can play it via Tabletop Simulator (which even offers VR) without paying anything to the people of created Settlers. Of course, I happen to have the physical board game in this case so I personally don't feel that is an issue. I think all these mods are in Steam Workshop but I'm not certain (I haven't bought a license yet although it is interesting to me). Getting back to the topic of the thread, this might be interesting: Best wargames on Tabletop Simulator. The linked thread mentions this Youtube series which has people playing a war game via TTS (I haven't seen the user interface for the simulator so this was interesting to me):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-khNEUlGjiQ

Apparently, there are various Discord communities online focused on finding others to play various games with on TTS. Some googling returns some results for war gaming but I don't know much about that topic so just figured I'd mention it (because for me, a problem I'd have is who I was going to play with).

Oh, and I used Catan purely as an example. I'm not 100% sure it's actually on TTS.

Salathor
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Re: Wargaming

Post by Salathor »

Awesome, thank you! I'll look that up!

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Jean
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Re: Wargaming

Post by Jean »

We played demonworld and w40k, but it's increasingly harder to gather Friends for a whole day.
On computer, i like stellaris and hearth of Iron 4 a lot, but it's more stategic than tactical.
On the tactical side, thé total War séries are great.
The downside of tabletop game, is that expérience gathering is much slower, which means it's also slower to learn about thé game. Computer games are also cheaper.

zbigi
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Re: Wargaming

Post by zbigi »

white belt wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:34 pm

I'd be curious to get the thoughts from any active MtG players on the forums.
I used to be semi-serious about competitive MtG play during University (meaning - I regularly traveled across Poland for tournaments, and also occasionally to other European countries for Grand Prixes). I have dropped it since I started working, but have picked it up again in much more limited form a couple years ago. Magic allows for a wide variety of approaches, and mine is that I basically only play limited formats now - I try to go to every prerelease tournament with my buddy, and we split the winnings. Quite often we manage to win a box of boosters (or more), which we then use to do sealed deck play. If we like the format, once we go through all boosters we create random "boosters" from the card pool (ERE style) so that we can continue playing. For one format, we've done that for good 9 months, playing once or twice a week the whole time.

Since I quit my job in May, I have also picked up online limited play via MtG Arena. It's quite addictive! And also much less ERE, since it's basically impossible to play limited only without buying the in-game currency once in a while. I enjoy the game so much that I've dropped around 150 euros on it so far. Figuring out a particular draft format, and trying to master all aspects of it is quite exciting intellectual challenge.

Salathor
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Re: Wargaming

Post by Salathor »

zbigi wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:58 am
If we like the format, once we go through all boosters we create random "boosters" from the card pool (ERE style) so that we can continue playing. For one format, we've done that for good 9 months, playing once or twice a week the whole time.
This is what I used to do with my wife and brother. You're the first person I've ever heard of who did it too. A lot of MtG players seem overly hung up on the 'collectible' aspect of the game and seem to think a booster draft is only fun if you're actively buying new cards. IMO, this is the most fun way to play. A $20 grab bag of commons and enough basic lands would literally be enough cards for an unlimited amount of fun doing faux-booster drafts.

white belt
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Re: Wargaming

Post by white belt »

I stumbled upon this lengthy blog post about the topic of playing MTG cheaply (from 2015 but hopefully still relevant): https://www.filterjoe.com/2015/10/22/ma ... -have-fun/

2 of the strategies he recommends boil down to the following:

-Play limited formats only (just like zbigi said). After the tournament, immediately sell the most valuable cards back to the store that's hosting the event (or I imagine you can sell them online if the event is not at a store). This should help you to recoup most of your costs. If you play only new release tournaments, the new cards should be at a pretty high resale value as well from what I understand.

-If you still want to play a constructed format, stick with something like Pauper which only uses common cards. From some quick googling, it still seems like a competitive Pauper deck might run you in the ~$100 range to buy the individual cards, but that's still much better than what a competitive deck in another constructed format will cost you.

I like both of these ideas because they force you to be focused on the fun of competition and playing with other people, rather than getting wrapped up in owning/collective expensive pieces of cardboard.

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Bankai
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Re: Wargaming

Post by Bankai »

I played MtG some 2 decades ago - it was a lot of fun but ultimately MtG couldn't compete with video games once I got my first PC, especially considering the ongoing cost to keep collection competitive. Several years ago I discovered online CCGs and spent way too much time playing Hearthstone and Gwent. Online CCGs have the advantage (or disadvantage if you're prone to addictions) of being able to play at any time against a randomly chosen opponent close to your level. They also don't require any money to play IF you are happy to build your collection slowly by using an in-game rewards system. It won't be enough to have all the cards but if you specialize you can get enough currency/cards to compete at the highest level without spending a dime (although spending some up-front speeds up the whole thing).

Also, +1 for TTS - I'm playing on TTS once a week or so with a group of friends and it's great. Another, older, engine of this type is Vassal which is free, but I like TTS's esthetics more and it's only a one-off £15 or so.

As to finding new games, discussing rules and strategies, etc., BGG (boardgamegeek) forum is a great resource.

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grundomatic
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Re: Wargaming

Post by grundomatic »

I just lost a long reply I spent a large part of the afternoon writing. I'll try again, but if it isn't masterfully crafted, I apologize.

I love wargaming. I grew up playing Risk and Axis and Allies with my friends during sleepovers. I've played MtG since Revised, WH40K since the start of 8th Ed., and Bolt Action for a couple years. My newest interest is D&D. Casual games like Catan, Dominion, Bunny Kingdom, and Wingspan are staples at my house.
Salathor wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 4:06 pm
If you do play, what strategies have you used to find opponents in real life, and do you find that you play more with a single player or do you have a group/club that you play with?
I find I typically recruit friends or I am recruited by them. Another thing I have done is to join a gaming group at a store or on Facebook, play everyone I possibly could, then switch to setting up games with only the people I really like. Since it is a large time commitment, I try to make sure the quality of company is high. One could probably filter even faster by spending a session just hanging around the group and observing multiple games (people).

As far as cost goes, like anything else we discuss on this forum, one can spend as much or as little as desired. I've found myself often benefitting from the excesses of the standard spendy gamer. I'd be willing to share this wargaming wealth with a forumite. It'd be the least I could do given the benefit I've gained from this community over the years (mostly as a lurker).

My current wargaming solutions:

For MtG at home, DW and I play Jumpstart. We bought cheap decks off eBay, sleeved them up, and got special storage for them. It plays like limited, which DW loves because her chances of beating me are better. I like that we aren't buying booster packs that we open and play once.

My primary MtG playgroup likes to play Commander. From what I understand it's the most popular casual format. I have a single deck that I have played for over a decade now. I change it periodically, cycling cards in and out to keep things fresh and keep my opponents guessing. I'll buy new cards for it when they are cheap.

I have a pretty good collection of older cards from pre-ERE days. I have several Modern decks that are relevant in the metagame. It's so nice having these when I want to go play against the other competitive nerds. New cards get printed--sometimes I just play the old, sub-optimal versions of decks, and other times I'll buy the new cards, or trade for them. My old collection has kept value pretty well.

I acquired an entire Warhammer 40K army this year by painting and trading models, starting with basically nothing. I have several armies, a box full of terrain, and the standard "pile of shame". I don't even know if I want to keep playing, everything about it is so time-consuming. I'll keep everything around, though, because I often cycle back to interests.

I have a 1000-pt Bolt Action army and a smaller force I bought to loan to friends potentially interested in the game. The rules are mostly the same across armies, the rules churn much slower than 40K, and I like the game mechanics better, so this might be my go-to game for "occasional" wargaming. The community seems much smaller than 40K, but I only need a few quality opponents for how often I have played recently.

Though not a wargame, D&D is my newest interest. For whatever reason, the cooperative storytelling is more fun for me right now than trying to crush my opponents in wargames, though that still has a place in my heart. I play in one group and run another as DM. I actually set that game in Ravnica since it's my MtG friends.

I'm willing to discuss and elaborate on anything, I just have to pick somewhere to stop writing. I could go on about this stuff for a long time. Hope this helps someone!

Salathor
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Re: Wargaming

Post by Salathor »

I've never heard of Jumpstart! I'm going to have to look that up. I've gotten my wife to play a few games of MTG with me but she prefers LotR since it's cooperative (and a fixed--but by no means small--cost).

Interesting about the Facebook groups. That's a great idea. I don't have FB but it might be worth considering to find a group.

I'm a big fan of table top rpgs too. Haven't played much in a group but I played DnD and several other systems solo for years. I have a blog of my old session reports that I resurrect ever few years.

Bolt Action sounds really fun. If you ever write up AARs I would love to see them! We just moved into a trailer but if we ever get more room, 15mm WW2 gaming is the first miniatures game I would get into (bolt action is 52mm, right? But still ww2).

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grundomatic
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Re: Wargaming

Post by grundomatic »

So there are some FB groups that are super active, but I've noticed some users migrating over to Discord, so that might be the future of organizing groups and you can avoid FB if you don't want any part of that world. There are a few people in the community that aren't on FB, but their friends that are help them set up games "Steve is looking for a game. Message me for his contact information." Of course with historical wargamers, they might still be running an email list or some such.

I just checked and I have 4 duplicate Jumpstart decks you can have @Salathor, to see if you like it. Message me.

How does one play D&D solo? I guess when I had RPG books decades ago and nobody to play, I'd make characters for fun...

Bolt Action is great. I don't really do AAR reports, but I'll usually analyze the game afterward with my opponent and try to post a few pictures and maybe a few brief comments. For whatever reason I just can't imagine someone being interested enough in my game to make it worth me writing about it. Also, just playing the game takes more mental bandwidth than I have, really, so trying to make notes/remember in detail what happened on top of that would just be too much. The official minis are 25mm, but you could use the rules to play 15mm minis if you wanted, it would probably improve the scale "realism" some. I guess it depends why you want to play 15mm. If it's so you can field more dudes and the minis aren't as detailed, rock on. Bolt Action could get real long playing company+ size actions. If it's to save storage space since you are living small...I magnetized my army and stored it in a single cake pan. Of course extra cake pans were needed for all the extra stuff I started acquiring, and the space I utilize to build and paint is much larger, but others have found ways to be space efficient with this aspect, too.

What I enjoy about the games we are talking about is how customizable they are, not just in the deck/army one brings to the game, but in the way they can be played/enjoyed. I found that I enjoyed both Magic and Warhammer being multi-faceted hobbies.

With Warhammer, I liked how painting gave me something to do hobby-wise when I wasn't playing the game. Early on I would finish painting a model or unit and that would make me want to play a game with it to show it off to my friends. Other times when I was in a painting slump, I found that playing a fun game would motivate me to paint something new. As I got to know the Warhammer "economy", I flipped a collection and tripled my money, and then did my "something from nothing" project.

With Magic, I enjoyed not only playing, but also collecting, deck building (budget and non-budget), trading, speculating, and socializing.

The most budget-friendly ways to play MtG have been discussed and that link is a good one. I will say that one isn't often going to break even selling rares back to the shop after a draft. Occasionally one will crack a pricey rare and be able to sell it back making the draft free, but many times one ends up with 3 bulk rares that the shop isn't even interested in buying. I have some thoughts on how I would approach MtG were I starting at zero. I'll make that a new post when I have time to elaborate.

Salathor
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Re: Wargaming

Post by Salathor »

grundomatic wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:46 pm
I just checked and I have 4 duplicate Jumpstart decks you can have @Salathor, to see if you like it. Message me.
...
How does one play D&D solo? I guess when I had RPG books decades ago and nobody to play, I'd make characters for fun...
...
The most budget-friendly ways to play MtG have been discussed and that link is a good one. I will say that one isn't often going to break even selling rares back to the shop after a draft. Occasionally one will crack a pricey rare and be able to sell it back making the draft free, but many times one ends up with 3 bulk rares that the shop isn't even interested in buying. I have some thoughts on how I would approach MtG were I starting at zero. I'll make that a new post when I have time to elaborate.
I just looked up the Jumpstart packs. That's very interesting! I don't think I have time now to get back into MTG but I'll let you know if things change in the near future. Thank you!

DND solo is kind of a combination free-writing experience, dice game, and oracle (think Rory's story cubes) mixed with any role playing system. I blogged about it for a while. If you're interested, you can check out my blog at https://adventurematerials.wordpress.co ... ard-thief/ (a link to one of my finished small adventures) or read aleaiactandaest.blogspot.com. He's the best in the business. An outstanding and very funny writer. I recommend his 'Lamentations of the Flame Princess' series. Basically, the way the systems work are you act as your own neutral GM (gotta be honest!) and use an oracle system that can resolve yes/no questions for you with varying degrees of likelihood, and they occasionally throw out surprises.

Example: You complete a quest and return to town. You ask, "Does the mayor give me the reward he promised?" You decide that he seemed honest, so you think that it's very likely he does. You roll and the result says, "No, but..." You then put on your GM hat and decide that he WANTED to return it but can't. Why not? You roll on another chart and get random words: Secrets/Plundered. You decide that, while you were gone, evil agents working in the town stole the reward from the temple before it could be given to you. Now you have a new quest line to pursue. And so it goes.

I had some success drafting very cheaply back when I was playing in college. The winning player would get 3-4 boosters. Each time I won I kept those and then worked out a deal with the shop that I could waive the fee (or reduce it) for the next time if I gave the boosters back. Since I don't care about collecting, it worked out fine!

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grundomatic
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Re: Wargaming

Post by grundomatic »

How could I forget about prize packs? I like collecting cards but hate playing the pack lottery if I don't have to, so I've done the same thing...trade back any prize packs for store credit that would just be used for the next tournament entry fee.

Thanks for explaining solo D&D. I play for the interpersonal interactions, so while I don't think it would be my cup of tea, it's another example of how customizable these games are. Thinking about these games/hobbies and how they can be used and enjoyed so many different ways reminds me of the section of the ERE book with the LEGO simile (5.2.2). What other parts of my life are LEGO blocks (or game systems) that I'm just not seeing how they can be put together in different ways?

white belt
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Re: Wargaming

Post by white belt »

grundomatic wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:46 pm
I have some thoughts on how I would approach MtG were I starting at zero. I'll make that a new post when I have time to elaborate.
I’d be interested in this post.

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grundomatic
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Re: Wargaming

Post by grundomatic »

I should have posted when those thoughts were still in my head. I had to think for a minute. @white belt, since the post you quoted said how I would approach it, that's what I'll write about. Based on what you have written, there might be better solutions for you, let me know if that's what you would like to discuss.

If all of my cards were to vanish today, but I was living in the same place, I'd just bum cards off my friends. I'd bring the beer or snacks to game night, and none of my friends would object to me using one of their commander decks. Another friend has lent me cards or entire decks for tournaments in exchange for half the winnings. I never won anything.

If I had no cards and no community, that would be different. I'd be looking to build my collection in order to play as many formats as I could (to meet the most people to see who I like), as well as build my own community of players willing to play on the cheap. It'd basically be a combination of the above methods with a few things added.

I'd start with drafts. Building decks is a lost art in the net-deck era, and I'm convinced playing limited makes one a better overall player. I'd spend some time beforehand studying the draft archetypes as well as the money cards from the set. I'd hang around afterwards and take the piles of draft/booster cards people leave on the table. I'd make decks using all my cards and try to convince people to play "block pauper" (or artisan) with me, even though that's not really a thing that's done in paper magic. I'd try to make it a thing. I might also try to organize second-hand drafts. I'd also use these cards to recruit people. Want to try Magic? I'll give you some cards, and won't beat up on you with overpriced cards.

I'd also start building a standard deck. It won't be top-tier, but there are often effective decks that don't need big money cards. If there is a healthy trading scene where I was playing, I'd build and improve my standard deck doing that (starting obviously with a base of drafted cards). Every trade is a chance to interact with someone new. If nobody was trading, ever, I guess then I'd sell my drafted money cards on eBay to buy cards for my standard deck. By only using money from selling single cards to buy single cards, I'd keep myself from going nuts buying cards. I'd have to really think about what I want. I'd similarly pick a legendary creature and start building a brawl deck the same way. I feel confident that within a few months I could have playable standard and brawl decks, giving me "access" to players that don't draft. I'd also start thinking towards standard rotation and how my standard deck could change to a pioneer deck, and how my brawl deck could be a commander deck, and trading for those cards.

All of this for me would be fun, because of the limitations. I have the most fun when I'm meeting lots of people, and building my decks and collection on a shoestring, or at least a budget. The drafts would be my outlet to be super-competitive and "try hard" to win, and standard my opportunity to prove that buying all the expensive cards doesn't guarantee the win. There is something super-satisfying about beating the best decks in (any format) with a budget homebrew. Throughout all of this my ultimate goal would be to find "my group" of people, because my absolute favorite magic to play is with cool people over beers, which doesn't always happen when playing randos at the shop.

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grundomatic
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Re: Wargaming

Post by grundomatic »

white belt wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:34 pm
Depending on your interests, the assembling and painting of your own models can either be your favorite part of the game that allows you to use your artistic side, or a time-consuming distraction to doing the real fun of fighting other people's armies.
You called it here. Having some time to myself with nothing I have to do, I now remember one of the things I love about warhammer compared to magic. Above I described all the things I would do to find people to play magic with, were my collection to disappear. When there are no people to play Magic with, the downtime activity is usually buying cards to build more decks. In warhammer there is a legit, skill-based thing to do when nobody else is around--paint.

white belt
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Re: Wargaming

Post by white belt »

grundomatic wrote:
Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:43 pm
You called it here. Having some time to myself with nothing I have to do, I now remember one of the things I love about warhammer compared to magic. Above I described all the things I would do to find people to play magic with, were my collection to disappear. When there are no people to play Magic with, the downtime activity is usually buying cards to build more decks. In warhammer there is a legit, skill-based thing to do when nobody else is around--paint.
Nowadays one can continue to play and build decks on Magic Online or Arena when there is no one to play against in person, right?

I’m close to pulling the trigger on playing some draft formats online to see how I like it, then potentially building up to some in-person draft events.

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