Significant others: Having the talk ...

How to pass, fit in, eventually set an example, and ultimately lead the way.
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Lemur
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Re: Significant others: Having the talk ...

Post by Lemur »

@7Wannabe5

Often I just lay out my thought process in writing, reach a conclusion, and re-read it a few times to see if it logically makes sense and the arrived conclusion is not some sort of fallacy. You're spot on why I made the post - I did not like the conclusions I came up with and I wanted to see what others would chime in with. Perhaps a different perspective is what I hoped to see.

In this situation, my understanding is that I can not have my cake and eat it too...unless there is some sort of other path I have not thought of. Most of the time in these cases, I'll just do what the fox does: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive ... Grapes.jpg decides he does not want the grapes anyway.

This perspective is unique though. I like your second paragraph - I stopped at 1 move ahead and like a bad chess player I didn't go one step further. I thought of my move (quit job)...then my Spouse's move (she resents)...and did not think of my next move after that other than well I shouldn't have made that move (I stopped at first formed impression). Your right - this predicament was more core then the Wheaton level. Thinking now...the ladder doesn't have much to do with it. This is solely a relationship struggle.

For some people, I think this problem is not really a problem at all. For instance, they would just quit and if the other spouse continues to work that is there choice. Unfortunately - I've read too many blogs and my data is telling me this often does not end well. I value my marriage too much and there is a reason I have been married for 7+ years without coming close to any sort of breakup or divorce.

In a final analysis, one good enough solution might be to find some form of work that still brings in cash flow and 529 funded (keeps Spouse happy) but does not make me too miserable and thinking about quitting my job all the time. After all, with current compounding my salary does not matter too much and if we correlate salary with job stress, it shouldn't matter if I trade in for a lower income / lower stress & hours. A potential winding down of hours over time may allow my Spouse to adapt to the changes...rather than abrupt change. Most don't like abrupt change. We previously agreed this $ amount is $750k. 64% of the way there...

I have done that several times in my life with great success though. I had a job once I just walked out of (literally) and never came back lol. My spouse knows this as I tendency I have - maybe that is part of the defense mechanism. I'm for abrupt change...she is not. She is actually the smarter one in this case I think. She really is the yin to my yang.

IlliniDave
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Re: Significant others: Having the talk ...

Post by IlliniDave »

I'm not up on your specifics, but a piece of financial advice I read somewhere was to defer to the more conservative of spouses/partners when sizing the nest egg.

I think your last post hits the nail on the head in terms of defining an interim solution. Find a job that you won't obsess about quitting. Or if it's a pattern, teach yourself not to obsess over quitting jobs just because they are jobs. Get her to define a financial resource target where she'd be comfortable with you retiring, and redouble you efforts to accelerate its attainment.

2Birds1Stone
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Re: Significant others: Having the talk ...

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

I'm usually trying to get people to get out of toxic work situations by simplifying the numbers and making a logical case for it. Sometimes other factors trump logic. In your situation, if the target is $750k, and your current spending is ~$24k/yr, then I would just stick it out a little while longer. Accumulation is on easy mode with your high salary + spouses income. Not many people are able to accumulate 3-4+ years of expenses per year of working. The finish line is close, so long as you don't move the goalposts.

I had a similar target in my head before getting married, but now not sure if we want to rely on living on such a low budget each year. The past 18 months have opened our eyes to the vulnerability of being priced out of housing in places we want to be, while geoarbitrage plans get squashed due to global situation. There are ways of mitigating some of these factors, and at the end of the day you have to decide how much risk *you're* ok with. You're, meaning collectively with your spouse.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Significant others: Having the talk ...

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Lemur:

Sounds like a plan. I was mostly trying to point to the likelihood that the two of you are actually closer on this issue than two player system makes it seem.
“IlliniDave” wrote: defer
Shudder. Why I am not likely to become significantly involved ever again. -lol.

But, speaking to the kids out there (especially those with kids), I agree with the advice you mentioned, because it is analogous to advice that partner with lower sex drive should generally defer to higher sex drive partner. It’s up to the lower drive partner to figure out and communicate to higher drive partner how they can enjoy “working” towards higher standard.

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Lemur
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Re: Significant others: Having the talk ...

Post by Lemur »

IlliniDave - I'm not up on your specifics, but a piece of financial advice I read somewhere was to defer to the more conservative of spouses/partners when sizing the nest egg.

I think your last post hits the nail on the head in terms of defining an interim solution. Find a job that you won't obsess about quitting. Or if it's a pattern, teach yourself not to obsess over quitting jobs just because they are jobs. Get her to define a financial resource target where she'd be comfortable with you retiring, and redouble you efforts to accelerate its attainment.
My posts in this thread are from July and I ended up doing just this but it took another half-year before I pulled the trigger and found government work. The interim solution worked out perfectly. I am happy with my new job and because I make almost the same amount of money (but with better benefits), my Spouse is happy as well. She also ended up being right too about this security ... because inflation has not been kind to her business and my continued income is even more secure now as government work tends to be recession proof.

@7Wannabe6 was also right about this supposed Wheaton Gap I was proposing was a problem - we're much closer then I thought we were upon reflection...as soon as I got a job that did not make me want to smash my head in a hall, I became more conservative and not seeking a way out from wage slavery. I'm overall taking a more relaxed approach to things and I am thinking more clearly. In hindsight, this should've been obvious.

I am somewhat reviving this thread because I believe that the current economic conditions are ripe for having conversations revolving around post-consumerism with Spouses...I thought of this thread today when I heard my Spouse utter some post-consumerism thoughts. It looks like my random past musings of "inflation doesn't effect people who don't buy things" and "one should think of a creative solution before buying an item" has had somewhat of an effect:

1.) On the way home from visiting my Grandfather, my Spouse stated we should stop at the grocery store while we're at it due to gas prices. "We really ought to consider driving less." Nice...I'm always in favor of that.
2.) My Spouse randomly stated we ought to consider planting more to reduce food costs.
3.) We are going to the beach this weekend and my Spouse packaged food ahead of time so we would not have to rely on restaurants/dining.
4.) Concerning groceries...our prices have not gone up because we eliminated the unnecessary items. For my Spouse, she stopped purchasing Pork (never thought this would happen as I figured culture would always win...). I started becoming more cognizant of items for sale.

As for me, in the past few months when I look at the emergent renaissance ecology stuff, I somewhat feel as if the forum is "getting away" from me as well a bit. As in - I need to up my skill level to keep up 8-). At this point...need more reading but also praxis. Now that my mind is not totally consumed from my job, I feel as if I need to devote some more time to this area in actually building some skills.

For a positive example - after years of failing with greens, I've almost totally relied on my Garden this year for salad greens (arugula, lettuce, spinach, snow peas). Its a boring Salad but it has saved money. If I wasn't lazy, I could've had squash, peppers, cucumbers, and other things up this year but I didn't plan enough (perhaps not too late to plant things...need to look at my garden schedule). No purchase necessary other then the initial seeds to get things going. I need some perennials - things that can keep coming up and I only have to do QA every now and then and harvest. Like a computer script at work that you just have to run once a month but don't really need code changes but pulls for me a reliable report.

My Spouse after all is a realist at the end of the day - if she is not seeing me making actual changes then I'm only talk. In a final sentence, if it hasn't been mentioned in this thread already, these changes between yourself, your spouse, and yourself+spouse combined (yes I made a 3rd category here lol), take time....be patient. The best way to influence your Spouse, I think, is to change and grow yourself and grow the relationship as a separate entity. If that makes sense. Like in a marriage dynamic, for purposes of building a vision, there is always a me, a you, and a we. And these need to align.

WFJ
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Re: Significant others: Having the talk ...

Post by WFJ »

Late to this discussion.

My experience is that if you want to find a SO with certain characteristics, spend time in that "gene pool". For example, if you like healthy people, look for SO at a gym. My experience with dating SO with different attitudes toward frugality is like dating an obese woman and then trying to convince them to lose weight, it will not go well. IMHO, frugality is ingrained in most people, as hard-wired race, religion or political affiliation and as likely to change.

mathiverse
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Re: Significant others: Having the talk ...

Post by mathiverse »

FBeyer wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:00 pm
Things I've learned since Dec. 18th.


- You cannot, ever, persuade anyone with reason alone.
- People accept change only if they come up with the terms themselves. Hence: Giving advice doesn't work unless there is an emotional angle.
- Only people in crisis are willing to change. Extend or exacerbate the crisis to make them susceptible to new ways of doing things.
- I have a supernatural ability to pinpoint something that will tear another person's self image to shreds in seconds and I tend to prod it with curiosity, not compassion.[1]
- Dialogue has two major factors to be aware of: What is the true objective of the conversation, and to what extent are both participants aware of that objective. Any mismatch leads to dissonance of some form.
- Mirroring and labeling works!
- Whenever you have to choose, always choose from more than 2 options, but not more than 5.
- consider, locations, people, equipment, and time in your options.
- There is always more under the surface. Even after talking for 45 minutes about one very particular subject. There is always more...
- The answers to a good life changes all the time; there is no such thing as the right answer.
- Prototyping beats analyzing's ass! ie find ways to TEST your ideas, and especially ways to test your fears and assumptions.


So a hodge podge battle plan using last month's learning only, applied to ERE-unwilling spouses goes something like:

Make it absolutely obvious that the intent of the discussion is not to find ways to save money, but to find a way to live a long, and fulfilling life of productivity, and purpose. That the discussion is about building a life you will be proud of[2]

Compassionate and understanding listening. Get the other person to talk for hours, or days, about their true needs, their self-image, how they feel loved and what kind of world they want to live in. Once you have a rock solid network of compassionate UNDERSTANDING (not a manipulation framework) then you can actually make a unified plan.

Don't steer the conversation towards money, but focus intently on the other person and what (always the 'what' question) they need to unite their most intense human needs. Ask what they'd like to give up to to focus intently on acquiring those needs (we all have shit in our lives. Find ways to get rid of shit so you can actually make mental and temporal space to make this project happen). What can they do to make room in their lives to live even better lives? Ideate on every single need. Find options, plenty of options, and let the other person come up with all the options on his/her own.

Highlight how your SO's current life is in conflict with their true desires. They're likely only halfway there and the debt they're paying on their half-assed (don't use that phrase) approach is actually hurting them, although it feels good and familiar. The side effects are catastrophic, even if they are well known. And it'll only get worse with time.

Fears are a major deterrent, so every fear needs its own options too. First find ways to actively (yes, out in the real world) test in a benign way whether those fears are actually well-founded. Again, when brainstorming solutions or workarounds to those fears try to make use of locations, people, equipment, or time, not just more money.

Talk about every option and it's emotional significance. Address the emotional connection between a person's base needs with ERE thinking/web of goals thinking (not FI thinking).

Always think of ways in which you can test something out in the real world where you can get valuable and cheap experience with the decisions you're making.

Don't ever fucking judge your significant other for being different than you!




[1] Sincere apologies to those who've suffered so far...
[2] 'cause no one remembers their best day of television.

comandante
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Re: Significant others: Having the talk ...

Post by comandante »

I am very late to this discussion.
My SO tends to worry, and although she likes that I'm not "bound to a career" and think about "early retirement", she says she doesn't fully understand how it works. Now, I don't think she means she doesn't understand withdrawals, returns, stocks and bonds and all those. I think she means that she doesn't get how something intangible can be counted on. It's a bit like smoke for her, I believe. Sidenote: she's mostly ENFJ.
Now I remembered reading in this topic a while ago some suggestions on how to talk about this to the SO. Some talked about using spreadsheets to quantify and show
Making a spreadsheet projecting networth, SWR, etc. out year by year for the next 50 years is how she finally grokked the FIRE concepts. - Jacob
Others were more into words
The question was: "If money was no object, what would you do with all your time?" - GandK
I think they're complementary methods for some people.

I'm now at that point where I'm having the talk with the SO. I told her that we could put numbers on it, so it becomes more clear for her. She agreed. I'm thinking of doing a 'future budget', then going from there to see how much we'd need. I am afraid however of saying too much and closing the door of understanding she has for this. She "needs the security of a paycheck".
Anyway, thanks for the thread.

loutfard
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Re: Significant others: Having the talk ...

Post by loutfard »

With my spouse, here's a few things that work and examples:
- leading by example. She was opposed when I proposed we stop hiring a subsidised cleaner and I (not we!) would clean the house. She had visions of a dirty place after me not actually doing what I promised. I cleaned the place myself a few times. This gave her trust. Suddenly, she came back to me about my proposal and announced she liked the idea, and she would do all laundry as her contribution.
- pausing until she has spoken/complained to a trusted colleague or friend. I recently combed together a stack of 1500€/year in proposed minor recurring savings. Zero effort required for her, except for the mental one of willing to accept the proposed changes. She was almost crying "I don't want things to change!". The colleague she complained to about this was actually impressed. That seems to have turned her around almost 180 degrees. She's now proud of her husband's talents in this area.
- praise. She seems to also have quietly made some changes herself. From ~ weekly food delivery ("exhausted after work") to infinitely cheaper Asian supermarket noodles she very much likes. I'm genuinely impressed. She has heard that from me repeatedly.

I just recently discovered a barrier to a healthy conversation about ERE and personal finances. My wife has a few basic math blind spots, probably due to the extremely challenging environment between her birth and masters degree. Almost always, she will soak up knowledge like a sponge. In her blind spots though, she feels particularly weak and insecure. She'll freeze and hardly absorb any knowledge at all. She recently had the courage to tell me, all curled up, she didn't know what a median was and feeling dumb about it. Having picked up that concept at school at the age of seven, I was dumbfounded. I wonder about the size and number of these blind spots. However small or large, they're not conductive to a healthy ERE or personal finance conversation. I'll need time to process this...

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Re: Significant others: Having the talk ...

Post by jacob »

loutfard wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:38 am
I just recently discovered a barrier to a healthy conversation about ERE and personal finances. My wife has a few basic math blind spots, probably due to the extremely challenging environment between her birth and masters degree. Almost always, she will soak up knowledge like a sponge. In her blind spots though, she feels particularly weak and insecure. She'll freeze and hardly absorb any knowledge at all. She recently had the courage to tell me, all curled up, she didn't know what a median was and feeling dumb about it. Having picked up that concept at school at the age of seven, I was dumbfounded. I wonder about the size and number of these blind spots. However small or large, they're not conductive to a healthy ERE or personal finance conversation. I'll need time to process this...
They're so huge that they're hard to see. A lot of the adult population is functionally illiterate and/or innumerate. This is why bestsellers are typically written at a 6th grade level and most politicians use a 4-9th grade vocabulary to reach their respective constituents. Only about 10% of the population is actually able to grok the chapter 7 diagrams in the ERE book. In my defense, the book was never meant for mainstream or median (ha!) consumption. Figure only about half of adults knowing what the median is. These numbers are real and PIACC based. I keep this bookmarked: https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2014/2014008.pdf

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Seppia
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Re: Significant others: Having the talk ...

Post by Seppia »

I would guess if I asked 100 people around me to define what the median is, at least 90 would be unable to explain it.
1/ I’m probably optimistic
2/ the “real” numbers are probably much worse as I live in an upper middle class environment that skews “high education”
3/ I would bet at least 30% of those who think they know the definition of median actually have it wrong

That is to say loutfard: your wife is normal, you are the outlier lol

loutfard
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Re: Significant others: Having the talk ...

Post by loutfard »

Thank you. That certainly gives a bit of perspective.

I skimmed the pdf, briefly pausing at figures 4-B and 6-B. Conclusions:
- Nine out of ten (general population) or two thirds (grad/pro degree) simply don't get what I considered basic numeracy until today. Never mind integrals, derivatives, matrices, probability, algebra, goniometry. Basic numeracy.
- I can reassure my wife she's ahead of them. That will encourage her to get even further ahead by patching up her blind spots.
- I might want work and pay more in line with my intellectual capabilities, like she suggested to me. My blind spots...

ertyu
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Re: Significant others: Having the talk ...

Post by ertyu »

loutfard wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 8:31 pm
- I can reassure my wife she's ahead of them. That will encourage her to get even further ahead by patching up her blind spots.
From what you said before, this is a great idea. She responds positively to praise. Even if it doesn't motivate her to do the particular thing you are praising her for, it seems like it motivates her to seek out other positive changes she could be making which she feels up to implementing -- which is how sustainable change happens.

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Re: Significant others: Having the talk ...

Post by jacob »

Seppia wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:39 pm
3/ I would bet at least 30% of those who think they know the definition of median actually have it wrong
It's that thing you drive your truck over when you pop a uey on the freeway.

Frita
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Re: Significant others: Having the talk ...

Post by Frita »

Re: Praise
Praise can be tricky because it can come across as manipulative and even condescending. I personally try to avoid relationships with people who cannot/will take responsibility for themselves or try to control me like a minor. If it is more the “I notice X and statement of the effects and appreciation,” that can work better for some types. Example, “I notice that working together we’re able to clean the house in less than a couple hours. Thank you, and that is saving $100 plus we don’t have to be flexible with the housekeeper’s schedule. Personally, I even find myself tidying more as I go to avoid more work later. What do you notice?”

Re: Mean and median
American students are taught to calculate the mean of a set of numbers in 6th grade. The concept is introduced in 4th grade, as well as identifying the median. Recall and time-limited comprehension are not sufficient for longitudinal application. There has been a semantic shift of “learning” to meaning seattime, passing tests, and taking minimal responsibility. As Jacob pointed out, it is certainly evident in literacy data.

loutfard
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Re: Significant others: Having the talk ...

Post by loutfard »

Frita wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:19 am
Re: Praise
Praise can be tricky because it can come across as manipulative and even condescending. I personally try to avoid relationships with people who cannot/will take responsibility for themselves or try to control me like a minor. If it is more the “I notice X and statement of the effects and appreciation,” that can work better for some types. Example, “I notice that working together we’re able to clean the house in less than a couple hours. Thank you, and that is saving $100 plus we don’t have to be flexible with the housekeeper’s schedule. Personally, I even find myself tidying more as I go to avoid more work later. What do you notice?”
We're definitely on the same plan here. I used "praise" as a not-so-precise shortcut for "appreciation and conversation opener".
American students are taught to calculate the mean of a set of numbers in 6th grade. The concept is introduced in 4th grade, as well as identifying the median. Recall and time-limited comprehension are not sufficient for longitudinal application. There has been a semantic shift of “learning” to meaning seattime, passing tests, and taking minimal responsibility. As Jacob pointed out, it is certainly evident in literacy data.
I was seven. Our biweekly report cards featured our test scores, each with a plus/equal/minus sign comparing your result to the others.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Significant others: Having the talk ...

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

There are 21 kids in a 4th grade class. On the first day of school they all weigh in between 60 and 80 lbs. with mean and median of 70 lbs. Their moms pack them lunches exactly calibrated to maintain their weight recalculated on daily basis. Every day at recess they fight with a random opponent and the winner takes the loser's lunch resulting in 1 lb weight gain for winner and 1 lb. weight loss for loser. The odds of winning a fight are perfectly correlated with the relative weights of the fighters. What is the likelihood that a child of mean weight will balance on the seesaw with a child of median weight after 100 days of playground fights absent adult intervention?

My point being that statistics ain't math. The difference between the mean, the median, and the mode is the story you want to tell about the world.

Walwen
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Re: Significant others: Having the talk ...

Post by Walwen »

I haven't really explained ERE to my family, but they have been flummoxed by it in my own life several times.

When I moved in with my grandfather, he basically assumed I was flat broke. When I began buying groceries and cooking for us both, he assumed my mother had paid me to do this, and tried to offer her money to compensate her. She told him she doesn't give me any money and that at 20, I have more in the bank than her or my sis. He was apparently shocked: How could I have saved so much, while working part-time and living independently?

I tell them simply: I save at least 50% of what I make. From what I guesstimate, my sis saves about 5% of her income (even though she doesn't pay rent or buy groceries!) and my mom saves basically nothing intentionally, on top of frequently having fallen into the cycle of payday loans.

My family thinks I'm crazy.
Half the time they think I'm some extreme ascetic, a cheapskate or luddite who doesn't keep up with the times.
And the other half the time they think it's basically magic that I have the money to buy high-quality dishware, cover expenses without going into debt, and buy good cuts of meat. They seem unable to draw the connections: Their 20 dollars of Burger King actually costs more than what I spent to cook an elk dinner for two with sides and drinks. But they think buying fast food 5 times a week is "cheap" while a weekly elk dinner is too expensive.

I've talked just a little bit on this subject to them. They seem to think the trade-off is hours and hours of hard, arduous labor. Yet, I've never once cooked dinner and sat down and gone, "I wish I drove to McDonalds, instead of spending that half hour cooking this stir-fry!" ....What do they think people did before freezer meals and drive-thrus? Forgive my ramble- sometimes it really gets to me when I feel like I'm living on that ship from WALL-E.

On the topic of family members not understanding basic financial and mathematical concepts: I talked to my mom about my plans to buy a mobile home and land before 30. I showed her some charts and numbers. She told me that the concept of compound interest is beyond her. She's a doctoral student.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Significant others: Having the talk ...

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Walwen:

I think your choice of "quality of life" and "savings rate" as your foci will be key to your long term success. I wonder whether you made a conscious choice to live with your grandfather rather than your mother? It has been my experience that making a trade such as home-cooking for rent or rent reduction works best if the other party is at least moderately frugal, but also less frugal than me. However, I am less consistent with maintaining quality/aesthetics than you seem to be, so in one situation where I was trading cooking + groceries for rent, I took the budget down to $2/day for two people by serving soup and home-baked bread for almost every meal. So, my fairly affluent housemate finally ended up throwing a wad of money at me, saying "For the love of Christ, go get some more groceries at Trader Joes." :lol:

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