Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

How to explain ERE, arranging family matters
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slowtraveler
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Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by slowtraveler » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:47 pm

How do you end relationships with humans who say okay when you say good bye but then find you or contact you to talk one more time for closure and then ultimately end up picking you up, feeding you, and with you spending the night, right back where you started?

I have met quite a few persistent ones and it is always difficult actually getting out permanently. It normally requires a harsh rejection or period of no contact that one side actually enforces no matter what the other party says. Typically, blocking a number won't work due to multiple methods of attempting contact and multiple numbers that can be reached out from. Physical proximity is typically a factor so moving can help in these situations but still, is not a guaranteed solution.

EMJ
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Re: Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by EMJ » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:25 am

This: a harsh rejection or period of no contact that one side actually enforces no matter what the other party says.

Otherwise you are everyone up for more or less painful, drawn out endings.

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Seppia
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Re: Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by Seppia » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:01 am

Felipe wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:47 pm
and then ultimately end up picking you up, feeding you, and with you spending the night, right back where you started?
It seems that unless there is some kidnapping involved, you are partially responsible for this :)
You could start by stopping spending nights with humans you have decide to avoid

Jason
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Re: Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by Jason » Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:37 am

Google "no contact rule". It's a sex/relationship addict term.

And for purposes of maintaining the utmost integrity with regard to personal transparency, I only know about this term after misspelling "no contract rule" in a google search. Just want to make sure that is understood.

That being said, you might want to explore the entire topic of sex/relationship addiction in more depth in your google travels.

wood
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Re: Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by wood » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:06 am

I've also had similar issues. It seems to be very apparent in women who run their lives based on their emotional state. The only solution is rejection and no contact.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:23 am

There are DEFINITELY men who do this too, the only difference being that if "persistent" is a mix of "pathetic" and "insistent", maybe men are a bit more "insistent." I err on the side of being a soft-touch with a long-fuse, so I have noticed that I am never really capable of totally blocking a man-to-whom-I-had-formed-emotional-attachment out until I have developed some clear vision in my mind of some other woman who would be a better match for him. Also, if I retain any degree of curiosity about what he might do next, then I am still leaving an opening.

For instance, I would feel little dysfunctional guilt about dropping my current BF, because I think he might be better off with somebody who looks more like Taylor Swift and functions more like a conservative-careerist than me. However, he exhibits a fairly good level of ability to pique my curiosity, so I tend to forgive transgressions, such as losing his temper just because I didn't follow correct coffee-making procedure, when he suggests interesting activities.

Many years ago, I adopted the practice of almost never contacting men except in response, and it has served me well. In fact, virtually every time I have violated this practice, I have had cause to regret it. IOW, I have learned that spending any given Friday night at home eating macaroni and cheese while watching some Downton Abbey knockoff is a better choice for future me than doing anything remotely resembling "chasing" any particular man. I have actually become so good at this practice that it is as if any man I am dating does not exist for me unless actually in the room or specific plans have already been suggested for the future. Of course, most men do not have the luxury of only responding.

black_son_of_gray
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Re: Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by black_son_of_gray » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:29 am

A useful framework for thinking about some of these people is that they are emotional or psychic vampires. There is some interesting advice for how to deal with them in the Satanic Bible... although it might be equally effective to just have these people see you casually browsing through the Satanic Bible. Maybe that will scare them away. :twisted:

slowtraveler
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Re: Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by slowtraveler » Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:29 am

For some reason, guilt kicks in at some point since I am in deeper than when I started this post. Don't ask how it happened. I'll point to a set up of Lollapalooza bias-commitment and consistency, sunk cost, incentive, and maybe a few I am forgetting. I should have listened to my inner voice that said, just turn off your phone and enjoy your mango lassi. Go have a bite somewhere and make plans with another cute girl. Do not see her to give her closure even though you feel you owe her closure because you would want closure.

@EMJ
I agree. Temptation is a b****.

@Seppia
I wish I could call my negotiating her having to pick me up from my apartment since I wouldn't dare walk over after what happened kidnapping. My gut told me to just ignore her persistent calls. It would be so much easier. But I ignored the quiet voice and it keeps getting louder.

@Jason
12 step programs replace one addiction with another (the groupthink) and have a lower success rate than chance (5% success vs 6%). I've been to enough 12 step programs to know they are not for me or anyone else I know.

Enjoying affection is being human, you can call my drinking water an addiction if you want. Air is pretty addictive too.

@Wood
Glad to hear I'm not alone here. No contact is hard but it seems a necessary step. Hopefully my incipient move will help with this.

@7w
I wish all women followed that. Would make this a lot easier. It's girls of a certain race I find so tempting, and they happen to be so persistent. Maybe I'm signaling to them that I want them enough to make their chase a successful one.

Everytime I ignore my gut in these situations, I end up with more work than an initial few dozen no's would have been. Everytime I say no, then go back on it due to a girl's persistence, it ends up being more painful. Commitment and consistency bias at play.

@black_son
Do you have a quick note of how to deal with them from Satan's Bible?

Jason
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Re: Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by Jason » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:17 am

Felipe - I would never suggest that you attend a sex addiction meeting. Well, unless you wanted to get laid. What I am saying is that they have some rules that translate to certain situations. And I honestly don't see any other option here other than freezing this chick out. I agree enjoying affection is human, but you seem to be paying a high and I would say unnecessary emotional cost for it. Your post indicates that you know its not healthy and you are just postponing a painful and bitter ending.

black_son_of_gray
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Re: Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by black_son_of_gray » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:23 am

Well it has been a decade since I read that book, so I could be way off and I don't speak for anyone's beliefs. Here's what I remember (or think that I remember)...

A brief primer to set the context. In Christianity, there is the idea of "turn the other cheek". In the Satanic Bible (author: LaVey), the message is strictly "eye for an eye", but amplified to the next level: if someone wrongs you, retaliate even more severely. [Interesting how this seems to describe Trump's modus operandi, even while largely embraced by many evangelicals.] From what I remember, LaVey recommends a neutral/positive approach to dealing with people (some benefit of the doubt), but if someone crosses you - you respond in kind swiftly and severely.

Now, what is a psychic vampire? Someone who feeds off of your mental or emotional energy. These are people who keep injecting themselves into your life because they crave the attention or emotional connection, etc. You could interpret this as "some people are socially unaware that they are doing this", but it's worth considering that many of these people know exactly what they are doing (basically, they are to some extent sociopathic). They finely tune their persistence and are acutely aware just how exhausting and draining they are... just like how a parasite or vampire slowly draws just enough from its host. Too much and the host recognizes the assault as a genuine danger. My guess is that LaVey would recommend treating people civilly for the first couple of interactions (e.g. ensuring that your preferences on the relationship going forward have been made known), but once it becomes apparent that they are infringing upon your personal space or privacy (that you are in fact a host), you treat them as just that - a person who is behaving negatively to you, and you respond in kind, just more severely. If you have pests in your house, what do you do?

I don't necessarily recommend this course of action, but I do think it has something going for it - specifically because psychic vampires exploit nice people who are too polite to tell them off. They are the kryponite of "turn the other cheek", because meekly accepting their behavior is tacitly acquiescing (or at least, they take it that way).

slowtraveler
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Re: Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by slowtraveler » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:09 pm

@Jason
A high emotional price indeed. I read your post shortly before she picked me up today.

@Black_Son
I am reading your post and it resonates so much.

I literally just got home from her apartment. She lied again today but I had proof. As soon as she knew I knew, she switched her modus operandi. This night, we went to her apartment but I did not let touching happen. She kept trying to start a touch. We talked. She kept attempting to shield with pillow, hands, blanket, but I would begin leaving and tell her no shields. No touch, a mature conversation. I eventually feel purged and she won't talk anymore. So I leave. She tried grabbing and blocking me multiple times. Thank God I am stronger. I hop her apartment fence to get out.

She motorcycles around town to find me walking home. She wants to talk but insists I walk towards her bike. I refuse. I am willing to talk as a final closure but she only turns her bike off. She refused to come talk so we go our separate ways after a few aggressive, semi violent grabs of my arm to pull me towards the bike since she is not willing to talk outside and wants to talk more in her apartment. Where was this desire to be open and talk when I was inside? I left when she was turtled up and unwilling to talk more. Both of us purges seems like perfect closure, which is more than she has earned. She then keeps calling and texting. She has called and texted over 5 times as I write this.

Holy shit they are persistent. All I wanted was honesty. She had the beauty and the fun but at over 11 lies caught in 1 month, she is out of chances. She knows this. She will not and is not ready for honesty or real relationship.

I feel much better. Almost like I'm out of a crazy dream and free now to meet more sexy ladies who are emotionally mature and courageous enough to be honest. I move later this week. She keeps calling, literally twice more during this sentence. I should probably block her number soon too until she cools down a bit.

I did not want to end the relationship but I had to, I no longer trusted or respected her when she lied to me today. She has proven time and time again that she will not be honest and is not ready to be. She still believes lying works better than honesty in relationships. Her messages are likely to be more and more desperate attempts to elicit a response. She won't stop. She keeps saying I finish, this is end, but then sends more. I want a record in case she tries something really crazy though so I don't exactly want to block or delete everything.

Jason
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Re: Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by Jason » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:45 pm

Based on this level of crazy, I'm assuming she's a firecracker in the sack.

slowtraveler
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Re: Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by slowtraveler » Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:07 pm

@Jason
Felipe will not comment on some of the more addictive qualities of the situation.

But she did say "And I finish with you." Followed by "I cannot finish with you really." "Please do not let me go." "Can i have another Let me get started with you again." All in relatively rapid succession.

She was seriously good at manipulation. Good at trying to get a first domino started of a single touch, to more stroking. I had to jump off her bed and cover myself multiple times as she attempted to hold me or sit on my lap, then go to the other side of the bed. She was so adamant I touch her affectionately.

I thought it was funny how comfortable she was with lying compared to me. She said "my friend doesn't like you!", followed by, "I jealous because my friend likes you and you recognize her voice and face (familiarity)", after I told her I don't care if she likes me because I don't like her. Why couldn't she just have been honest? Girl could have had what she wanted if she just acted like a respectable, trustworthy woman.

slowtraveler
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Re: Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by slowtraveler » Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:38 pm

Even now I am thinking, "Is that behavior really that crazy?" I call it persistent, except for the few grabs and the attempts to cuddle which I call violent/manipulative.

I didn't end it on any basis of crazy but of a repeated proving that she is not willing to be honest Even though I have told her
more than a few times how important it is to me, and she agreed and said she would be honest, and I told her multiple times hard truths she would never have known had I not brought them up as they came up without her having to ask a thing, she still wouldn't play honesty but instead played manipulation. The last lie I was willing to put up with, she said she started because her "friend" said I only wanted free sex. Hmm. I have paid more for food and other experiences with her than buying *** on the open market. I could have had a different girl every night for less had I simply gone to the open market. Even with that evidence, she contacted someone she promised to stop with instead of me then tried lying about. Shitty way to reconcile insecurities in a relationship.

But stupidly, I actually would have forgiven her had she been honest. If I wasn't so clear that this was her last chance to give me a hard truth, I would not have been able to resist all her attempts to touch and look adorable last night. Me asking, her proclaiming no when I knew it was a lie, then her switching as soon as she saw in my face that I know. I am not willing to watch someone closely in a relationship for long. If I have to play that game due to lack of trust, I can not respect what is happening, I have to get out. I want to focus on building something beautiful, seeing the world, making money, learning, not detecting deception and playing fucking chess like my lover is an enemy. I am seeking a partner, a teammate, a lover, a friend, not an opponent

Thank God for my gut. Thank God for my knowing of biases from "Poor Charlie's Almanac" and Wikipedia. Thank God for the book "What Every Body is Saying", helped a lot in reading all her shielding attempts and seeing an over the lie when she screamed "No!" as her head nodded. And thank God for having exposed me to some honest women in the past, for I know there are truly good women out there who seek what I do.

finity
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Re: Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by finity » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:44 am

You seem to have made your decision. If you are sure about that: Don't just talk the talk ... walk the walk. Ending relationships is always hard, but currently you are only postponing the inevitable pain.

slowtraveler
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Re: Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by slowtraveler » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:37 am

@Finity

I have taken the first few steps. The siren keeps calling and I keep not responding. There's temptation but I have begun the hardest part.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:27 pm

@slowtraveler:

I am very sorry you are going through a bit of the rough, but in defense of my gender, I would note for the record that it is damn hard to simultaneously vibe "I am adorable" and "I am worthy of respect." And, if the market indicates higher demand for "adorable" than "respectable", then it's like faulting McDonald's for putting more sugar than fiber in its buns.

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Re: Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by jacob » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:41 pm

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:27 pm
And, if the market indicates higher demand for "adorable" than "respectable", then it's like faulting McDonald's for putting more sugar than fiber in its buns.
I award your pithy statement very many points for its high insight/word count ratio. It's relevant for numerous other contexts => I'll quickly internalize it and eventually steal it and use it elsewhere :mrgreen:

Jason
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Re: Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by Jason » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:33 pm

I personally found the punctuating of the sentence with "buns" to be a sly yet devastating employment of the double entendre.

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Ego
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Re: Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by Ego » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:27 pm

Equating adorable with sugar and respectable with fiber earned bonus point from me.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:37 pm

@jacob@Jason: Thanks : ) Sometimes I type okay with my "clammy little baby hands" (disrespectful phrase applied to my person recently; causative of minor empathy with slow-traveler's cuckoo-bananas girl :lol: )

@Ego: No, because you do not appreciate sugar AT ALL, but you do think Mrs.Ego is adorable.

slowtraveler
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Re: Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by slowtraveler » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:50 am

Update a week later:
Following day she contacted me dozens of times before I angrily said something along the lines of stop contacting me, I don't trust you. She eventually convinced me to meet for a hug, which spiraled into me coming right back in. I re added her phone back in as her name with the town name instead of as her name with girlfriend.

My heart was more guarded now and she felt it. She complained I did not trust her fully or care about her the same way. I spent more nights with her than without her that week. She wants to move in together.

Fast forward to yesterday, she gets mad at me for getting foot massages and saying hi back to her friends when they say hi to me. She is infuriated at me for even looking at other girls, even though this is a huge double standard. She says she is tired, hurt, and scared. She wants to start over and me to forget everything from before. I say those emotions can be worked through but there are more fundamental conflicts at play that lead to patterns of pain and I don't think either of us are willing to budge on those so we should finish due to those. I spend the night one last time but we don't kiss much, more talking.

She contacts her ex out of fear hat night but tells me about it. The next day, we are in the car together on the way to her work before a bite and me heading home as a last good bye. She sees her name on my phone missing the girlfriend title. I explain that is a week old from when I deleted and re upped her number and she has seen my phone many times so why the anger? Then she texts 2 other guys in front of me, she had previously promised to not do that. Last strike, I'm out. I leave the car during a red light, find my way home, and she does not stop contacting me. She ditches work to come to my house even though I repeatedly say do not come, good bye. Thanks for making the last bye easy. Go to work like you promised your boss.

She manipulates me into actually coming out for just a quick bite. She then doesn't want to get a bite but come inside for a quick 1 hour talk. I refuse. She wants to cook for me one more time, talk one more time, blah blah blah. I catch a few more lies in the conversation. I don't think she can stop them. She eventually leaves angrily after she gets that I genuinely do not want her there and will not let her see my new apartment. I block her number for a while. I think it is finally over.

It feels clearer this time than last. We both know this situation has added far more stress than joy and it is more work than it is worth.

Tldr: block a phone number instead of using willpower. Do not respond. Even a "stop contacting, go away" response often leads to an opening that can domino one to right back to what was left. This goes double for really pretty girls.

As Charlie Munger said in "Poor Charlie's Almanac", "Avoid evil, particularly, if they are attractive members of the opposite sex."

Avoid means to give no attention to.

Sandi_k
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Re: Ending Relationships with Persistent Humans

Post by Sandi_k » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:07 am

What are you, a 12 year old? Block her number and be done with her.

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