Motorcycle for cheap transportation?

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BRUTE
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Re: Motorcycle for cheap transportation?

Post by BRUTE »

jacob wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:36 pm
An in-shape bike-racer might be ~ a 1k cc motorcyclist when it comes to acceleration and road-wisdom due to the combination of experience and "engine power/weight".
199hp / (80kg rider + 210kg bike) = .68hp/kg
x hp / (80kg rider + 6 kg bike) = .68 solved for x is ~58, ie. the bicyclist would need to develop 58hp to compare to the motorcyclist in terms of acceleration.

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jennypenny
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Re: Motorcycle for cheap transportation?

Post by jennypenny »

Stats on bicycle fatalities ... http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/pedes ... ycles/2016
"Each year about 2 percent of motor vehicle crash deaths are bicyclists. ... A total of 835 bicyclists were killed in crashes with motor vehicles in 2016. "

Motorcycle stats (also from the IIHS) ... http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/motor ... otorcycles
"The federal government estimates that per mile traveled in 2015, the number of deaths on motorcycles was nearly 29 times the number in cars. ... A total of 4,976 motorcyclists died in crashes in 2016. "

For comparison, there were 23,793 motor vehicle occupant deaths in 2016.

Just FYI

BRUTE
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Re: Motorcycle for cheap transportation?

Post by BRUTE »

must be a guy thing. they are. so. fast.

[edit]

maybe brute has to put the appeal in context for humans who've never ridden a fast motorcycle. these things are not "pretty fast" or "very fast". a used, street-legal $5,000 liter bike will out-accelerate pretty much any car short of an actual F1 race car. the first few hundred feet, it will out-accelerate a jet fighter.

acceleration is fun. the next step up from that $5,000 appeal is devoting one's life to becoming an actual race driver, or jet pilot.

these things are so out there it's hard to find an analogy. maybe, since jennypenny seems to be a 2nd amendment human, it can be compared to concealed carrying a minigun.

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Sclass
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Re: Motorcycle for cheap transportation?

Post by Sclass »

@JP,
The experience is as variable as the types of machines. So it’s hard to say what your missing. It’s not just speed and acceleration. I’d like to ride a Honda 70 around Pataya for a week...someday.

I like Brutes gun analogy. I think motorcycle safety stats are like gun safety stats. I believe I can be an outlier and not characterized by the data. A lot of the accidents involve small amounts of alcohol and riding. It really shifts the odds against you. Don’t drink a drop while riding, do not ride beyond your abilities and you can hold off being a statistic. Rider error is a huge cause of Mc accidents. A surprising number of people hit stationary objects...they aren’t hit by cars. When they do, the speeds make it tragic.

The Japanese sportbikes are two wheeled F1 cars. The engines are race quality. It’s a steal at just below $10k.

SavingWithBabies
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Re: Motorcycle for cheap transportation?

Post by SavingWithBabies »

The other part of the experience is just being... out there. Like hanging off a piece of hardware but there is nothing between you and the world. Maybe a small windshield taking air off your chest. But you can reach your hand out and right over there -- you can touch the car driving down the road with you. Not that it would be a good idea. But it's right there. Words fail though. You could argue you could do the same from a car window. But you're inside the car. Maybe it's all psychological but it feels like there is less separating you from the world and you feel more connected. It's real. It's right now. And it's not framed by a windshield.

The other part is turns at low speed are much different. You can lean to the side. Like crazy lean. And just a little throttle and you'll pop back up. You know you leaned too far when you're scrapping the kick stand (maybe that was just my bike with the oversized welded on corner angle iron foot -- prior owner).

Things hit you too. Like a bee bouncing off your helmet makes you happy you have something between you and the world. The wind buffets your head. When it's blowing and you're on a long road trip, you get used to leaning into the wind slightly. You also distribute your weight to keep the bike straight -- not so much steering input really although maybe a little there too. You smell more and the smells come and go more quickly. It's also really noisy. Like way noisier than you expected at highway speeds. As in fatiguingly noisy unless you wear earplugs. And even then it can be a bit much after a full day.

Speed is the other big one but for me, I had a 500cc Japanese copy of a Ducati twin-v engine. That was coupled to a big fairing and hard luggage. It was no speed machine. So that is part of the variability that @Sclass mentions. So I try to wax more eloquent on the other aspects because I haven't felt the types of acceleration a sports bike will deliver.

@C40 I caught your post on your journal too. With that context, I would recommend these things:

- scooter as pointed out above is the ideal solution to your in-town commute (highest MPG option, fairly cheap to acquire)
- dual sport / enduro-style is a good choice if you want to balance the above with the exploration you mentioned however I'm assuming that was off road exploration (there is a range of small engines to large, light to heavy, more offroad capable to more road capable, smaller gas tank/range to larger, etc)
- naked classic Japanese bike is more appropriate if you want to explore on road and possibly have a passenger and/or find the looks of the dual sport off putting (although at this point it's just a recommendation on where to start looking because if you're here, you have some idea of what you find appealing so...)

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Seppia
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Re: Motorcycle for cheap transportation?

Post by Seppia »

When you drive a car, the car carries you, when you ride a bike, you carry the bike.
Riding is ridiculously more fun and pleasurable than driving a car, it doesn't compare

A bike calls for incredibly defensive riding though. You basically have to assume at all times that all other occupants of the road are actively trying to kill you.

Side note: I don't understand why there aren't insanely high fines for all the idiots looking at their phone while driving. Every time I see that I should be allowed by law to punch that person in the face.

BRUTE
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Re: Motorcycle for cheap transportation?

Post by BRUTE »

well, 99% of the time a human looks at his phone while driving, nothing bad happens. it's just in those 1% of cases that something terribly bad happens. this dynamic always makes things weird, and high fines aren't automatically a good solution.

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jennypenny
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Re: Motorcycle for cheap transportation?

Post by jennypenny »

I get that motorcycles are really fun to ride. I love riding them, too. And in the right conditions, they aren't that dangerous. C40 was asking about using one for basic transportation though, and in congested conditions they are definitely less safe (and less fun). I'm not arguing that people shouldn't ride them but maybe treat them as a hobby instead.

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Re: Motorcycle for cheap transportation?

Post by jacob »

@brute - relative to cars, not each other ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KKBZFT49bs

Jason

Re: Motorcycle for cheap transportation?

Post by Jason »

jacob wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:36 pm

There are three kinds of particles---bolztman, fermi-dirac, and einstein-boson---describing this at the microphysics level.
@FFJ

I found that when I substituted "assholes, douchebags, and fucking idiots" it gave me, at least partially, a better understanding of what he is talking about.

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Sclass
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Re: Motorcycle for cheap transportation?

Post by Sclass »

SavingWithBabies wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:36 pm
Speed is the other big one but for me, I had a 500cc Japanese copy of a Ducati twin-v engine. That was coupled to a big fairing and hard luggage.
Hey, that sounds funny. Are you sure it wasn’t a Moto Guzzi copy?

I liked your description of riding. You reminded me of swimming. You don’t need to do it but it sure is a wonderful full body experience.

JP is right. My motorcycle is kind of like a big toy and hobby. I commuted for a decade on the highway but it was still a toy. Since I always had a car, the motorcycle was always extra overhead. I certainly spend unnecessary money on mine today just to own it. Not a money saver, not a money maker. But I’ve paid for at least one continuously for the last thirty years and I don’t regret it.

Funny about the phones. I stopped MC commuting when the iPhone came out. I observed a dramatic change in reckless driving. Basically I made more evasive maneuvers per day when that thing came online. No more of that. I am sure both bicyclists and motorcyclists observed the same change. Driving had just degenerated.

Hey a Hondamatic 450 sounds like a great first bike. That’s a sweet deal.

James_0011
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Re: Motorcycle for cheap transportation?

Post by James_0011 »

This is probably the go-to site for ebikes: https://electricbike-blog.com/

I would suggest getting a used steel mountain bike, and converting it to an electric bike. Cheaper than a motorcycle, and you dont have to worry about gas, insurance, licenses, etc...

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C40
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Re: Motorcycle for cheap transportation?

Post by C40 »

jennypenny wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:19 pm
I love motorcycles, but it seems like when you go that route you give up the safety of a car as well as the benefits of a bike (health, environment, cost). Am I missing the benefit of choosing a motorcycle over the other two?

I'll admit I'm biased though. I'd never want to play chicken on a bike or motorcycle with a bunch of speeding battering rams driven mostly by idiots with one eye on their phone.

Here are the reasons for me - applying to my own personal situation and assumptions (I want to keep the van, so I'm not considering the option of selling the van and getting an efficient car... and I'm considering it likely that I'll live 10-20+ miles from friends/family/sexy ladies in order to have cheap housing)

Benefit of Motorcycle vs. driving my van):
- 4-6x more fuel efficient (60+ mpg vs 13 in my van)
- More fun to use
- Don't have to put wear on my campervan for general transportation. (in my case, the van is also my/a house. So driving around and wearing out the house for the purpose of transportation unrelated to me living in/using the house)
- I'd feel better about it. I like to optimize a lot of things. Driving this huge ass van for general transportation feels stupid. I enjoy using smaller/simpler/more efficient tools and methods and a motorcycle will seem much more like I'm 'doing this right' compared to the van or a car.

Benefit or Motorcycle vs. bike:
- Can ride further
- Can ride faster
- Can operate without getting as hot


In my situation, these aren't either/or choices. I'd use all three:
BICYCLE - Exercise, transportation for short distances or when I'm cool with spending plenty of time and physical energy getting somewhere far away
MOTORCYCLE - General transportation that I don't want to ride a bike for
VAN - camping trips, hauling things, driving in (hard) rain, transporting passengers.


Also, I just think motorcycles would be a fun hobby for me. Not just the riding, but also fixing them up. It would include learning some skills that I want.

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C40
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Re: Motorcycle for cheap transportation?

Post by C40 »

SavingWithBabies wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:36 pm

@C40 I caught your post on your journal too. With that context, I would recommend these things:

- scooter as pointed out above is the ideal solution to your in-town commute (highest MPG option, fairly cheap to acquire)
- dual sport / enduro-style is a good choice if you want to balance the above with the exploration you mentioned however I'm assuming that was off road exploration (there is a range of small engines to large, light to heavy, more offroad capable to more road capable, smaller gas tank/range to larger, etc)
- naked classic Japanese bike is more appropriate if you want to explore on road and possibly have a passenger and/or find the looks of the dual sport off putting (although at this point it's just a recommendation on where to start looking because if you're here, you have some idea of what you find appealing so...)

I'm envisioning this kind of use:
- Putzing around town: 50%
- On a highway or something similar: 25%
- On dirt/gravel/fire/forest service/BLM roads: 25% (some of which have some decent sized rocks and ruts, but mostly pretty smooth or with pretty smooth lines available for a 2-wheeler... a fair amount will have washboarding)
- Totally off road / on trails: ~0%

So I think using a scooter is probably out of the question for using one bike to do all those(?)

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C40
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Re: Motorcycle for cheap transportation?

Post by C40 »

James_0011 wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:00 pm
This is probably the go-to site for ebikes: https://electricbike-blog.com/

I would suggest getting a used steel mountain bike, and converting it to an electric bike. Cheaper than a motorcycle, and you dont have to worry about gas, insurance, licenses, etc...
I'll have to read about them. With my current limited understanding of them, I'm thinking the mileage range is not going to be enough for me (I may want to be doing round trips over 50 miles)

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C40
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Re: Motorcycle for cheap transportation?

Post by C40 »

ffj wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:36 am
@C40

I have a 1982 Hondamatic 450 you can have for free if you want it. Hasn't been run in years but has a new paint job and upholstery. Headlight assembly has to be rebuilt, kickstarter doesn't work (battery is dead) and I assume the carbs will have to be rebuilt. If you ever take that van through the south it might be worth the stop for a project bike. It's just in my way in my barn.
Hmmmm, that could be nice. I'll PM you.

BRUTE
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Re: Motorcycle for cheap transportation?

Post by BRUTE »

those old bikes are really easy and fun to work on. rebuilding headlight is a couple hours on these bikes, brute has done it. carb cleaning is not too complicated either and can be done at home.

as for the usage percentages:
- putzing around town, anything is fine, scooters excel at it
- highway: only the bigger scooters (250+cc) will be somewhat comfortable at highway speeds due to acceleration, wheel size, and suspension. small ones will suck. how often and for long long does C40 plan on riding on the highway? 30 minutes every week might be fine, but an hour per day.. probably a bad idea on a scooter. small dirt bikes (<600cc or so) are almost as bad at highway as scooters are.
- most bikes will probably fare ok on gravel/dirt roads, but non-dirt bikes will not be at home. the more important part is probably to have a bike that crashes well so a spill only means getting off the bike and picking it up, no expensive fairings or parts to repair. dirt bikes, scooters, and UJMs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal ... Motorcycle) excel at this by being sturdy and cheap to repair.

if the highway part is not that important and this is more about practicality, brute recommends a scooter. if there's going to be quite a bit of highway, and wrenching is part of the appeal, brute recommends a used UJM.

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C40
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Re: Motorcycle for cheap transportation?

Post by C40 »

Gven the likelyhood of highway riding and my desire to learn/do wrenching, and just because I think I'll enjoy them more than a scooter, I'm thinking UJM all the way.

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Re: Motorcycle for cheap transportation?

Post by Farm_or »

What a slippery slope that can lead to. For reasons that brute, sclass, and especially how eloquently saving w/b puts it, motorcycle can be a cascading obsession.

1st the dirt bike, then the enduro, the practical ujm, upgrade a little power on the next, the jump to 1200 (it felt and handled like a 500!), then the R1, and ultimate Hyabusa!

I told myself, "the busa is practical. It gets 50 MPG. The performance makes it safer..." One really BIG speeding ticket later: how long have I been fooling myself?

Oh, but the fun I had, and the stories to tell? Lucky to be alive and unscathed - mostly...

BRUTE
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Re: Motorcycle for cheap transportation?

Post by BRUTE »

"brute will just stay in 3rd gear, that's not too fast". bike revs to 12k.

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