While I avoided buying a condo years ago because pretty much everyone I found had a situation where you could hear the neighbors above and below you pretty easily, I am considering buying a town home because only the walls are shared and having spent a lot of time at my gf's parents town home, I rarely if ever heard a neighbor. As such I'm considering downsizing from my 4 bedroom 2.5 bath house to a town home about half the size, but about 1/3 the price!
Noise is my primary concern, but as long as I don't have neighbors above or below me I think it should be fine. From my experience living in apartments, the vast majority of the noise is from people above and below you.
The only other concern is the HOA dues, some of them are pretty high at $400 a month, but are they really? They include water, sewer and sometimes garbage service. So let's say that's worth about $150-$200 a month. That leaves another $200 a month for maintenance reserves such as siding, driveway paving, roofing, etc. Technically, I should be putting that if not more every month away for my house maintenance, no? So when one accounts for the expenses that the HOA dues cover, are they really that bad?
Town home vs condo noise?
Re: Town home vs condo noise?
I'm curious to see what others will say. I have owned 2 condos now. There is certainly a sweet spot for HOA dues. Most of the time the HOA dues are too high. Many of us will do the work ourselves which takes out labor, the most expensive part of home maintenance. HOA also will often prevent you from doing certain things that may be cost saving, this isn't too common. As others have mentioned in previous posts, it's good to look at a home as a good investment. If you buy a home then the price and maintenance costs should be covered by a renter should you need to do that some day.
Appreciation is a big issues in both townhomes and condos. They tend to lag behind single family homes. When you try sell some banks may not approve buyers if there are too many renters in your building group. If the building is built poorly you can get slapped with occasional lump sums on top of HOA dues which are mandatory. The last condo I bought went into litigation with the builder and once you are in litigation the bank won't offer loans on the property so it can only be sold for cash. I sold right before the litigation was published.
But there are investors that still buy individual condos and apartments so some are still good investments. My personal concern is HOA's will keep going up and they usually outpace inflation. I don't want to owe 1000/mo when I'm retired for just HOA and still owe taxes and property insurance.
Appreciation is a big issues in both townhomes and condos. They tend to lag behind single family homes. When you try sell some banks may not approve buyers if there are too many renters in your building group. If the building is built poorly you can get slapped with occasional lump sums on top of HOA dues which are mandatory. The last condo I bought went into litigation with the builder and once you are in litigation the bank won't offer loans on the property so it can only be sold for cash. I sold right before the litigation was published.
But there are investors that still buy individual condos and apartments so some are still good investments. My personal concern is HOA's will keep going up and they usually outpace inflation. I don't want to owe 1000/mo when I'm retired for just HOA and still owe taxes and property insurance.
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SimpleLife
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Re: Town home vs condo noise?
You can get hit with lump sumps owning a single family home too, but unlike an HOA, you can live in a dilapidated house instead of paying for repairs when your furnace breaks, roof leaks/needs replacing, etc. (as long as you don't have an HOA there too) 
In that context, are the HOA dues that out of line with regular home maintenance costs? The maintenance on my 10 year old house in a subdivision is about $3,000 per year (1% of 300K) and I pay about $300 a year for HOA dues (and I'm responsible for the sidewalk lawn area around my house). Just maintenance alone is about $250 a month I have to put away for home maintenance in a single family home. Add W/S/G and you're looking at about $150-$200 per month on top of that. Now, keep in mind the condo costs 1/3 what the house does.
In that context, are the HOA dues that out of line with regular home maintenance costs? The maintenance on my 10 year old house in a subdivision is about $3,000 per year (1% of 300K) and I pay about $300 a year for HOA dues (and I'm responsible for the sidewalk lawn area around my house). Just maintenance alone is about $250 a month I have to put away for home maintenance in a single family home. Add W/S/G and you're looking at about $150-$200 per month on top of that. Now, keep in mind the condo costs 1/3 what the house does.
Last edited by SimpleLife on Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Town home vs condo noise?
One thing to consider in a condo/HOA is what the dues pay for. I cringe at fixed monthly fees, but $400/month including sewer/water/garbage may perhaps be reasonable in your area assuming they'll actually take care of necessary repairs out of that money (does the driveway really need to be repaved every year?). But if the rest really goes to a bunch of amenities you'll never use or pays a salary to the HOA board and repairs are limited and covered by special assessments then it may not be such a good deal. I'd also want to see a detailed history of the fees and assessments to make sure the advertised rate will really stay that way in future years. Basically, read the fine print.
I rented a townhome once, and found the noise from our immediate neighbor to be minimal. Then again, she was a nice older lady living alone, so it could have been luck. Now the people in the complex across the street who would throw ABBA parties were another matter entirely.
I rented a townhome once, and found the noise from our immediate neighbor to be minimal. Then again, she was a nice older lady living alone, so it could have been luck. Now the people in the complex across the street who would throw ABBA parties were another matter entirely.
Re: Town home vs condo noise?
I don't know about townhomes, only condos. How do they work? Are they part of a complex? How big? Do they have a board that makes decisions about maintenance and improvements or do they farm that out to a management company? It's cheaper for a complex to self-manage.
You didn't say what the townhouse is worth? 100k? If so $400 a month seems on the high side for a property of that value. Even more so if the building is a newer one (post 1960). Water, sewer, and garbage is not much. Does HOA cover building insurance? Gardening, snow service, etc? "Siding, driveway paving, roofing," sound to me like special assessment-type projects, not part of normal maintenance.
Speaking of, we were renting a condo in a medium-size complex. The boiler broke this winter and needed an emergency replacement. Cost was 30k out of their reserves. But our landlady's HOA subsequently went from $430 to $500. That money has to be made up somehow. Incidentally her property is worth a lot more than 100k and it's in a Victorian complex, which typically require higher HOA.
You didn't say what the townhouse is worth? 100k? If so $400 a month seems on the high side for a property of that value. Even more so if the building is a newer one (post 1960). Water, sewer, and garbage is not much. Does HOA cover building insurance? Gardening, snow service, etc? "Siding, driveway paving, roofing," sound to me like special assessment-type projects, not part of normal maintenance.
Speaking of, we were renting a condo in a medium-size complex. The boiler broke this winter and needed an emergency replacement. Cost was 30k out of their reserves. But our landlady's HOA subsequently went from $430 to $500. That money has to be made up somehow. Incidentally her property is worth a lot more than 100k and it's in a Victorian complex, which typically require higher HOA.
Re: Town home vs condo noise?
I have had both.
My current home is a condo. We are on the second of three floors (neighbors above and below). We're in an end unit (neighbor to the left, across from our front door, but no one on the right). I can't hear anyone, ever, unless both we and they have windows open. So I guess these are very well built. HOA dues here are $218. That includes water but not electricity. Only real down side is that our HOA meetings are always a clusterfuck. About 50% of the people in our complex are 65+ retirees. Most are awesome, but a vocal handful of them appear to have no life outside this place and have stepped straight out of Grumpy Old Men. If they can complain about something, they will. At the last meeting it was motorcycles (they're noisy and people use visitor spaces - we have plenty extras! - to park them them in). Before that it was the propriety of a board member being married to the complex secretary. I guess this is the crap that gets to you when your world gets a little too small.
The town home I lived in about 12 years ago was much less quiet. I had two neighbors, one on either side. My big problem with the town home was that my bedroom wall was also someone else's bedroom wall, and those walls were very thin. My neighbor and I both had a sense of humor about it, but had we not been on good terms, things could have gotten very ugly. We heard everything.
So yeah... I guess I'd look hard at how well they are built. And interview the neighbors! We made sure to do that before moving in. G was fortunate that his masseuse had been living here for a decade before we moved in. We got a lot of good information from her.
My current home is a condo. We are on the second of three floors (neighbors above and below). We're in an end unit (neighbor to the left, across from our front door, but no one on the right). I can't hear anyone, ever, unless both we and they have windows open. So I guess these are very well built. HOA dues here are $218. That includes water but not electricity. Only real down side is that our HOA meetings are always a clusterfuck. About 50% of the people in our complex are 65+ retirees. Most are awesome, but a vocal handful of them appear to have no life outside this place and have stepped straight out of Grumpy Old Men. If they can complain about something, they will. At the last meeting it was motorcycles (they're noisy and people use visitor spaces - we have plenty extras! - to park them them in). Before that it was the propriety of a board member being married to the complex secretary. I guess this is the crap that gets to you when your world gets a little too small.
The town home I lived in about 12 years ago was much less quiet. I had two neighbors, one on either side. My big problem with the town home was that my bedroom wall was also someone else's bedroom wall, and those walls were very thin. My neighbor and I both had a sense of humor about it, but had we not been on good terms, things could have gotten very ugly. We heard everything.
So yeah... I guess I'd look hard at how well they are built. And interview the neighbors! We made sure to do that before moving in. G was fortunate that his masseuse had been living here for a decade before we moved in. We got a lot of good information from her.
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SimpleLife
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- Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:23 pm
Re: Town home vs condo noise?
So what's the way to tell whether a condo or townhome is well built other than knocking on the neighbors doors(I've done that, and EVERYONE I've talked to at the hand full of places I looked at years ago said you can hear neighbors above and below).
My old apartment I lived in for 10 years was quite as heck...sigh.
My old apartment I lived in for 10 years was quite as heck...sigh.
Re: Town home vs condo noise?
My experience in a row house style townhouse is that I almost never hear neighbors that are indoors. But there's this one neighbor that hosts sports-watching parties on their patio and makes a huge racket that can be heard indoors (grr). To be fair, that kind of party would be heard even if these were detached houses. But, townhouses are packed closer together so the probability of having a loud neighbor within earshot is greater.
The HOA fees are annoying, but as others have pointed out, they replace some of your maintenance and utility costs. Typically the HOA covers the wear items that need rare extremely expensive replacement (roof, exterior paint, paving), and individual homeowners tend to be unable to amortize those kinds of expenses effectively. The HOA organization has some overhead but that is offset somewhat by the fact that so many resources are shared (e.g. instead of owning a complete driveway, gutter system, and lawnmower, you are only liable for a small fraction of each).
There is potential for HOA boards to become tyrants. For my part I've waged a successful political campaign, using libertarian rhetoric, to convince TPTB to be a "night watchman" organization that enforces rules and spends money as little as possible. That kind of thing flies with the Grumpy Old Men and the landlords alike.
The HOA fees are annoying, but as others have pointed out, they replace some of your maintenance and utility costs. Typically the HOA covers the wear items that need rare extremely expensive replacement (roof, exterior paint, paving), and individual homeowners tend to be unable to amortize those kinds of expenses effectively. The HOA organization has some overhead but that is offset somewhat by the fact that so many resources are shared (e.g. instead of owning a complete driveway, gutter system, and lawnmower, you are only liable for a small fraction of each).
There is potential for HOA boards to become tyrants. For my part I've waged a successful political campaign, using libertarian rhetoric, to convince TPTB to be a "night watchman" organization that enforces rules and spends money as little as possible. That kind of thing flies with the Grumpy Old Men and the landlords alike.