I guess this also depends a lot on where you live.
My parents live in the south of the Netherlands, where the sun isn't exactly shining all the time. Still, they want to produce their electricity in an environment-friendly way and are looking into using solar energy. (It is also a not very windy area, so wind energy isn't helping much either; and we don't have big mountains so water-down-hill energy doesn't work either).
Given the price of a kWh of electricity of 22 eurocents, they hope to earn back their initial investment in about nine years. Maybe sooner if the price of electricity rises more. They say solar panels should last 20-30 years.
I am considering putting some of my money in as well, hoping to make some money after the initial investment is paid back. I'm thinking of shouldering 1/3rd of the installation costs and then getting 1/3rd of the annual savings/earnings; I think that would be a fair deal. It could get complicated if my parents sell their house in the meantime, or if they die (they are 60 now).
Are you using solar energy, or are you considering it?
Solar panels?
-
jennypenny
- Posts: 6853
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
Hi DutchGirl,
I live in the west of the Netherlands, currently in an apartment. In about two years, when hopefully house prices have collapsed a bit further I hope to buy a house somewhere in the middle of the country. One of my main selection criteria for a house is roof positioning, as I'm planning to maximize the roof space available for solar panels and solar water heating.
I live in the west of the Netherlands, currently in an apartment. In about two years, when hopefully house prices have collapsed a bit further I hope to buy a house somewhere in the middle of the country. One of my main selection criteria for a house is roof positioning, as I'm planning to maximize the roof space available for solar panels and solar water heating.
I had been contemplating fitting my roof with solar panels for a while, but the 9-12 years before even making a positive return, combined risk of damage/breakdown or having to sell the house at a loss didn't make it too appealing.
I've also noticed that some companies offering complete installations ask up to twice the actual cost should you puzzle the thing together from parts ordered directly at the manufacturer. So unless they really provide you with 100% warranty over 30 years (and they are surely still in business by then) this is just throwing away perfectly good cash.
It's possible to get state sponsorship (Agentschap NL) for solar panels again though, since recently, which makes the odds slightly better. Some might see this as a good excuse to raise installation costs.
Another thing to note is that the 22 cents are mostly tax, and not the actual electricity. At some point in the future, either tax may apply both ways or electrical companies will start charging if everyone is only using them as a big cloud backup battery.
So far for the negativism!
If I were reasonably sure that the return would last 30 years (so none of the horror scenarios happening) I might just fill up my roof. But I'd probably would like to build the construction (flat roof) myself to keep cost down. And get an inverter from ebay. But that may be a bit much DIYing.
@McTrex: Perhaps a bit selfish, but I'm hoping for house prices not to collapse further, I'm screwed as it is already
Edit: I couldn't get the simple arithmetic right earlier, but if your panels last 20 years and take the 1/9th yearly payout, you're looking at a 1.1% return (because you have to subtract the initial investment, if you're comparing with say CDs). For 30 years this'll be 4.4%. This does assume you don't reinvest the yearly payout - then again you lose the ability to do that with your initial investment too.
I've also noticed that some companies offering complete installations ask up to twice the actual cost should you puzzle the thing together from parts ordered directly at the manufacturer. So unless they really provide you with 100% warranty over 30 years (and they are surely still in business by then) this is just throwing away perfectly good cash.
It's possible to get state sponsorship (Agentschap NL) for solar panels again though, since recently, which makes the odds slightly better. Some might see this as a good excuse to raise installation costs.
Another thing to note is that the 22 cents are mostly tax, and not the actual electricity. At some point in the future, either tax may apply both ways or electrical companies will start charging if everyone is only using them as a big cloud backup battery.
So far for the negativism!
If I were reasonably sure that the return would last 30 years (so none of the horror scenarios happening) I might just fill up my roof. But I'd probably would like to build the construction (flat roof) myself to keep cost down. And get an inverter from ebay. But that may be a bit much DIYing.
@McTrex: Perhaps a bit selfish, but I'm hoping for house prices not to collapse further, I'm screwed as it is already
Edit: I couldn't get the simple arithmetic right earlier, but if your panels last 20 years and take the 1/9th yearly payout, you're looking at a 1.1% return (because you have to subtract the initial investment, if you're comparing with say CDs). For 30 years this'll be 4.4%. This does assume you don't reinvest the yearly payout - then again you lose the ability to do that with your initial investment too.
I might consider it. I currently rent a small apartment in a 4 stories high building (living on the 3rd) - so I would need to contact the housing association for such a feat.
Still, it sounds appealing; having our flat-community band together and produce part (?) of our own energy.
The student apartment where I used to live is experimenting with solar panels (or rather the housing corporation). Having worked for said corporation as a student representative I could of course ask how the deal is working out for them (and how to tackle it with our current building)
Still, it sounds appealing; having our flat-community band together and produce part (?) of our own energy.
The student apartment where I used to live is experimenting with solar panels (or rather the housing corporation). Having worked for said corporation as a student representative I could of course ask how the deal is working out for them (and how to tackle it with our current building)
The other thing to factor in that 9 year break even time period would be your increase in resilience. I recently had a four day power outage and while I survived just fine, it made me think about how dependent I am on the grid. In fact, all the gas stations within a 10 mile radius also lost power, so their pumps were running at a 10th of the speed and there were huge lines of angry people waiting for gas. I kind of got an idea of what it would be like if the entire system broke down. It was a bit unsettling.
As a side note, I kind of enjoyed reading by candle light and the sense of calm and focus I was forced into.
I don't own my home, but if I did, I think I would wait for prices to reach the five year break even point and then make the investment, taking into account the financial rewards, but also freedom from the grid.
As a side note, I kind of enjoyed reading by candle light and the sense of calm and focus I was forced into.
I don't own my home, but if I did, I think I would wait for prices to reach the five year break even point and then make the investment, taking into account the financial rewards, but also freedom from the grid.
@mds: running completely off-grid, depending on where you live and what the power usage scenario is, could be a massively costly undertaking. The most sensible way (I figure) to do this would be to store power in lead-acid batteries. If you need to save up for winters (due to darker, shorter days), and do some electric cooking or heating, you'd need hundreds (about .7 KWh in one 60Ah battery - so that's probably $100 to store $.10 of electricity). And these generally last only 5 years.
It'll work in small quantities for power outages, or one may be able to rearrange life to only use electricity in summer or daytime. But you could also get a diesel generator and keep a few gallons around just in case
It'll work in small quantities for power outages, or one may be able to rearrange life to only use electricity in summer or daytime. But you could also get a diesel generator and keep a few gallons around just in case
A brother in law who's an engineer said that energy companies in the Netherlands could indeed change how much electricity they are willing to take back from you (at peak times) and how much they'll pay you for it. This could seriously damage any profit plans you might have. His suggestions were to either:
1. have a panel that is small enough so that you use all of its energy. So it must produce at maximum the amount that you need at minimum. And no storage, so it has to produce the energy when you need that energy. You keep buying the rest of your energy from the electricity company.
2. or get a good contract with an energy company for at least ten years so that you'll have your initial investment paid back. Just hope and pray that they'll be willing to renew that contract after those years.
My dad's still thinking about it.
1. have a panel that is small enough so that you use all of its energy. So it must produce at maximum the amount that you need at minimum. And no storage, so it has to produce the energy when you need that energy. You keep buying the rest of your energy from the electricity company.
2. or get a good contract with an energy company for at least ten years so that you'll have your initial investment paid back. Just hope and pray that they'll be willing to renew that contract after those years.
My dad's still thinking about it.
-
Dream of Freedom
- Posts: 753
- Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:58 pm
- Location: Nebraska, US
-
Spartan_Warrior
- Posts: 1659
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:24 am
One thing to consider is that solar energy is possibly the single best renovation in terms of improving the home's resale value. I can't be bothered to find a source now, but I've heard the figure thrown around that an average sized solar PV system adds about $20k to a home's value here in the US. (That seems to be about 2/3 of the cost of the average system.) So theoretically it wouldn't be a total loss of investment even if you moved.
I'm thinking about getting solar panels as soon as possible. There are federal tax credits here that cover 30% of the installation and equipment, currently scheduled to expire in 2016, but who knows how long they'll last in a new administration. I need to build up a little more liquid cash and really look at the ROI. I have a feeling it would be a good investment for me, but I need to see the numbers to convince myself.
I'm thinking about getting solar panels as soon as possible. There are federal tax credits here that cover 30% of the installation and equipment, currently scheduled to expire in 2016, but who knows how long they'll last in a new administration. I need to build up a little more liquid cash and really look at the ROI. I have a feeling it would be a good investment for me, but I need to see the numbers to convince myself.
I understood from a cousin who works as a real estate agent that in the Netherlands, house prices do NOT rise with solar panels on the roof, which is very strange because the new owner probably does get some years of service and thus lower utility bills out of these things. But that's how it is for the Netherlands.
So my idea would be that if you want to buy solar panels AND are planning to move before they are old, ask around what effect they have on house prices in your area.
So my idea would be that if you want to buy solar panels AND are planning to move before they are old, ask around what effect they have on house prices in your area.
Hi DG, I'm also from the Netherlands and have installed solar panels 2 years ago on my own roof. With the government grant that was available then ROI is about 6 years and FREE electricity for another 20-30 years there after.
Earlier this year I have given* my parents also a set of 2660 Wp. This should be paid back in about 7 years now (shopping well, installing myself, no government grant)
Is it fun? Yes! Well, I think it is
Is it wise for investment? Yes, as long as the government don't change the rules AND don't produce more then you use. I expect that the government won't change the possibilitie to deduct own production from using from the grid within the next few years (Dutch: salderen tot 5000 kWh).
For a lot of details and discussions you could check this Dutch forum: http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/lis ... 89879/last
For more details and personal experience you can always PM me.
*Given = they will pay me the price they would have paid otherwise the electricity company. After they have paid me the full price, it's theirs.
Earlier this year I have given* my parents also a set of 2660 Wp. This should be paid back in about 7 years now (shopping well, installing myself, no government grant)
Is it fun? Yes! Well, I think it is
Is it wise for investment? Yes, as long as the government don't change the rules AND don't produce more then you use. I expect that the government won't change the possibilitie to deduct own production from using from the grid within the next few years (Dutch: salderen tot 5000 kWh).
For a lot of details and discussions you could check this Dutch forum: http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/lis ... 89879/last
For more details and personal experience you can always PM me.
*Given = they will pay me the price they would have paid otherwise the electricity company. After they have paid me the full price, it's theirs.
Thanks, both. My dad has decided not to install solar panels. He is 63, and may stop working on his farm when he gets a good offer. He was assured by several people who sell farms (farm brokers?) that solar panels, weirdly enough, do not increase the price of a farm, even though they clearly have advantages for anyone running the farm. When my father sells the farm, they may also want to sell their house. So then they also have to say goodbye to any solar panels installed on the house.
So he decided the future was just too uncertain, and that he should not invest that big a chunk of money into such a risky business. I think it was a wise decision for him, even though I'm sure he would have loved to have environment-friendly electricity.
So he decided the future was just too uncertain, and that he should not invest that big a chunk of money into such a risky business. I think it was a wise decision for him, even though I'm sure he would have loved to have environment-friendly electricity.
HI DG, I can understand the decision. If he still want's to support the environment-friendly electricity, he can also join one of the projects like "www.dewindvogel" en "www.meerwind.nl" which are focussing on windmills.
By the way: I had to fill out my electricity and natural gas use for the annually bill. We used again less: the solar panels, a bunch and other stuff I did and the shower heat exchanger I installed last year helped.
We now pay only € 55,- a month. After the monthly incentive we receive from the government for installing the solar panels, we pay only about € 25,- a month for a family of 4!
By the way: I had to fill out my electricity and natural gas use for the annually bill. We used again less: the solar panels, a bunch and other stuff I did and the shower heat exchanger I installed last year helped.
We now pay only € 55,- a month. After the monthly incentive we receive from the government for installing the solar panels, we pay only about € 25,- a month
for a family of 4!Sounds good, Rube! (Looking at your suggested links, and did you know there's also meewind.nl ?)
I'm definitely going to look into solar panels once the boyfriend and I settle down somewhere, currently we're kind of in a transition house, although it is possible we'll stay here anywhere between one and five years. If we still live here by 2018, someone kick me in the butt, please?
I'm definitely going to look into solar panels once the boyfriend and I settle down somewhere, currently we're kind of in a transition house, although it is possible we'll stay here anywhere between one and five years. If we still live here by 2018, someone kick me in the butt, please?