ERE City (US)
@JasonR
As a former resident of Pittsburgh it should be in the discussion as a potential big city ERE location. Cheap everything with big city events and a nice airport. Less snow than you would think and summers are usually not overly hot. A couple colleges (Pitt, Carnegie Mellon, Duquesne). Some negatives: It has limited subway/train network and is built on 3 rivers with lots of hills, so you will be in shape if you bike it.
As a former resident of Pittsburgh it should be in the discussion as a potential big city ERE location. Cheap everything with big city events and a nice airport. Less snow than you would think and summers are usually not overly hot. A couple colleges (Pitt, Carnegie Mellon, Duquesne). Some negatives: It has limited subway/train network and is built on 3 rivers with lots of hills, so you will be in shape if you bike it.
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jennypenny
- Posts: 6858
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
@JasonR and Chad--Pittsburgh is a great suggestion. Pennsylvania is one of the more attractive states for retirement regarding taxes and services. And Pennsylvania often appeals to people on both sides of the political aisle. Many Pennsylvanians would see nothing wrong with people trying to live an ERE lifestyle (maybe because of the strong Amish/Shaker/Mennonite tradition?). It's a little behind the times in the green department, but that seems to be changing.
Another vote for Pittsburgh
Another vote for Pittsburgh
I would not seek a city as such, but a town of 5-10,000 about 60-100 miles from a larger city. Since you aren't looking to work any more you don't need to live near likely workplaces to make your daily commute anymore. This size of town in this location will have bus or train service to the nearby city for occasional trips to obtain items/services unavailable locally (think of eye surgery or concerts for instance).
Larger cities and towns usually will have higher real estate prices. If you look around my area in W. IL/E. IA you can easily find 2 BR 1 BA houses on large lots for about $35K in these towns which is about $40-50k less than in the small cities in the area.
Smaller than 5000 population towns may not have adequate public libraries or shopping options. 50 EREers moving to town probably would also drive real estate prices way up in a town smaller than 5000.
Larger cities and towns usually will have higher real estate prices. If you look around my area in W. IL/E. IA you can easily find 2 BR 1 BA houses on large lots for about $35K in these towns which is about $40-50k less than in the small cities in the area.
Smaller than 5000 population towns may not have adequate public libraries or shopping options. 50 EREers moving to town probably would also drive real estate prices way up in a town smaller than 5000.
To add to this topic, I live in Lubbock, TX and home prices are low, however one major con is public transportation is poor to non-existant, and unless you plan very well, a car or at least a motorcycle is necessary. Aside for public parks and within close proximity to campus, sidewalks are non-existent. It is a college town and investing in real-estate is common and lucrative if you know what you're doing. The municipal water has caused cholera. I bathe with it, but any water I ingest is either boiled or run through a filter. It's not a bad town, but does have a few faults. I find the people to be nicer and slower paced "country style" than big cities I have lived in the past. The population is around 250,000. The university accounts for about 100,000. Nearby are several wind farms.
5-10k strikes me as too small. Reason being, ERE benefits from access to resources that are on the fringe of mainstream society and small towns are unlikely to be able to support many of them. I'm thinking of: public transit to airport, large library, thrift store, craigslist/freecycle, bike shop, hardware store, cobbler, homebrew supplies. Often the one and only retail option in small towns is a WalMart or Super Target accessible only by car, which wouldn't really cut it.
I said "unlikely," so I'll grant that a 5-10k town with all those amenities may exist somewhere out there.
On snow: I think utility biking in NH in winter is a no-go. Plows push snow from the traffic lanes into the shoulders which leaves even less room for bicycles. And cars frequently slide semi-uncontrollably which seems like a huge hazard.
I think you'd need to be able to meet all your needs by walking on sidewalks. For robustness I'd want at least one backup way of meeting all needs, e.g. bus lines or a taxi service.
DividendGuy's trials and tribulations make me think that carfree feasibility is essential.
Within NH I keep coming back to Manchester. It's large enough to cover some fringe needs, has an airport, buses, arena, and hospital, doesn't suffer from the border-town or coastline premiums, and I can vouch that the core is pleasantly walkable. I'd say Nashua is even more pleasantly walkable, but it's more expensive.
I said "unlikely," so I'll grant that a 5-10k town with all those amenities may exist somewhere out there.
On snow: I think utility biking in NH in winter is a no-go. Plows push snow from the traffic lanes into the shoulders which leaves even less room for bicycles. And cars frequently slide semi-uncontrollably which seems like a huge hazard.
I think you'd need to be able to meet all your needs by walking on sidewalks. For robustness I'd want at least one backup way of meeting all needs, e.g. bus lines or a taxi service.
DividendGuy's trials and tribulations make me think that carfree feasibility is essential.
Within NH I keep coming back to Manchester. It's large enough to cover some fringe needs, has an airport, buses, arena, and hospital, doesn't suffer from the border-town or coastline premiums, and I can vouch that the core is pleasantly walkable. I'd say Nashua is even more pleasantly walkable, but it's more expensive.
The set of retail options in a town of 5-10K varies, but if it's not too close to a larger town it'll have most of Kevin's concerns except for homebrewing supplies (and maybe Craigslist). You'd figure on bussing it to the "big city" for fun and thrift shopping a couple of times a year anyhow. Also remember that Walmart's traffic layout will be different in a small town than in a larger area--typically it will be on a two lane road. A 5 K town due to its size is inherently walkable/bikable, so local public transportation is mostly irrelevant to the able-bodied. (The towns I'm familiar with either have taxi service or some sort of system to serve the handicapped/disadvantaged/elderly.) The bigger transit concern is to have public connections to the large regional commercial/administrative center by bus or train.
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jacob
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Durham, NH, population 14,000.
What facilities, specifically, would a college town have that other towns don't? I can see the usefulness if you're college aged, but what about 10 years later?
I'm asking in a general sense, because "college towns" seem to command a premium of desirability and I don't quite understand why. Also many of the universities I've visited (and that's quite a lot) seemed to have an area that was quite concentrated, e.g. campus + a few blocks beyond was "college-like". The rest looked indifferent from other cities.
What facilities, specifically, would a college town have that other towns don't? I can see the usefulness if you're college aged, but what about 10 years later?
I'm asking in a general sense, because "college towns" seem to command a premium of desirability and I don't quite understand why. Also many of the universities I've visited (and that's quite a lot) seemed to have an area that was quite concentrated, e.g. campus + a few blocks beyond was "college-like". The rest looked indifferent from other cities.
@JennyPenny
"Overall, the cost of living in Vancouver, WA is 8.7% less than the Washington average, and 6% less than the national average."
-From AreaVibes.com
Vancouver is not one of the cheapest cities, but it's not expensive. I recall apartment shopping there and finding a 3br for $700/mo. Food cost can be controlled by shopping at farmer's markets, which are abundant.
"Overall, the cost of living in Vancouver, WA is 8.7% less than the Washington average, and 6% less than the national average."
-From AreaVibes.com
Vancouver is not one of the cheapest cities, but it's not expensive. I recall apartment shopping there and finding a 3br for $700/mo. Food cost can be controlled by shopping at farmer's markets, which are abundant.
Jacob, I'm not sure peak oil means smaller towns. In the short term, I'd expect higher transportation costs to concentrate population -- people won't want to live in the suburbs anymore with their 30 minute commute, they will want to live closer to a central business district. You've also mentioned that port cities are desirable due to peak oil -- the best ports are generally large cities.
I've started a Wiki to keep track of all this:
[edit: I deleted the link to this Wiki because apparently it requires approval for every editor, which seems a bit silly. Plus, Jacob is contemplating installing one on this site]
Maybe a Wiki isn't the best way to do this, but I think we need to maintain some lists (like candidate cities) without constantly reposting large lists to the thread. A shared google spreadsheet is another option, but I think voting is a feature that is missing from both.
I've started a Wiki to keep track of all this:
[edit: I deleted the link to this Wiki because apparently it requires approval for every editor, which seems a bit silly. Plus, Jacob is contemplating installing one on this site]
Maybe a Wiki isn't the best way to do this, but I think we need to maintain some lists (like candidate cities) without constantly reposting large lists to the thread. A shared google spreadsheet is another option, but I think voting is a feature that is missing from both.
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DividendGuy
- Posts: 441
- Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:58 pm
@Mirwen
I wonder if she meant the Canadian Vancouver...which is one of the most expensive cities in North America. I can't imagine being Vancouver, WA being one of the most expensive cities on our continent.
To add to the thread; I guess what is important to most ERE'ers is low taxes, a comfortable climate, good public transportation, free or low-cost activities and an advantageous cost of living.
This was published today, which lists the highest and lowest states by tax burden:
http://finance.yahoo.com/taxes/article/ ... -247wallst
Of course, that article seems to include corporate tax? Which wouldn't apply, of course.
I really like Florida, personally. The city I live in is truly a paradise, except for the general shortcomings in the bus system. If I didn't have a job, I wouldn't mind if the bus was half an hour late or so..as my biggest obligation would be...going to the library? The grocery store?
Florida has no personal income tax, which is nice. The weather is great for most of the year, but I mind heat a lot less than other people it seems. The beaches and parks are great free entertainment. I can only compare cost of living to my home state of Michigan, and I would say it's very close or slightly cheaper here. The biggest difference is that Michigan has a flat personal income tax just north of 4%. The state sales tax is 6% in FL.
I see Gainesville was mentioned? That would probably fit more people as the winters are much, much milder than where I am. I don't know about the public transportation system there. I'm a big fan of beaches and tropical locales, so this fits for me...but I can understand if the heat makes it a non-starter for others.
Looking forward to seeing the final results on this one!
I wonder if she meant the Canadian Vancouver...which is one of the most expensive cities in North America. I can't imagine being Vancouver, WA being one of the most expensive cities on our continent.
To add to the thread; I guess what is important to most ERE'ers is low taxes, a comfortable climate, good public transportation, free or low-cost activities and an advantageous cost of living.
This was published today, which lists the highest and lowest states by tax burden:
http://finance.yahoo.com/taxes/article/ ... -247wallst
Of course, that article seems to include corporate tax? Which wouldn't apply, of course.
I really like Florida, personally. The city I live in is truly a paradise, except for the general shortcomings in the bus system. If I didn't have a job, I wouldn't mind if the bus was half an hour late or so..as my biggest obligation would be...going to the library? The grocery store?
Florida has no personal income tax, which is nice. The weather is great for most of the year, but I mind heat a lot less than other people it seems. The beaches and parks are great free entertainment. I can only compare cost of living to my home state of Michigan, and I would say it's very close or slightly cheaper here. The biggest difference is that Michigan has a flat personal income tax just north of 4%. The state sales tax is 6% in FL.
I see Gainesville was mentioned? That would probably fit more people as the winters are much, much milder than where I am. I don't know about the public transportation system there. I'm a big fan of beaches and tropical locales, so this fits for me...but I can understand if the heat makes it a non-starter for others.
Looking forward to seeing the final results on this one!
I'd think TX would have a lot of the same positive traits that NH does, and also a more hospitable climate. Austin is great but expensive by TX standards.
"public transportation is mostly irrelevant to the able-bodied"
I agree that walking is a sufficient plan A, but to confidently go carfree I need a viable plan B to handle unusual events such as having a broken leg, visitors that can't walk as far, moving furniture, etc.
"What facilities, specifically, would a college town have that other towns don't?"
College towns have a large population of open-minded people with disposable time but little disposable income. This tends to imply: cheap/free music, art, film; public transit; book stores; coffee shops; fast food; ethnic restaurants; cheap apartments; sporting events; access to higher education (duh); and a socially liberal environment.
Some of these are a matter of personal preference, some are irrelevant, and you can probably find any of them independently of being near a college. But "college town" tends to imply the whole package.
"public transportation is mostly irrelevant to the able-bodied"
I agree that walking is a sufficient plan A, but to confidently go carfree I need a viable plan B to handle unusual events such as having a broken leg, visitors that can't walk as far, moving furniture, etc.
"What facilities, specifically, would a college town have that other towns don't?"
College towns have a large population of open-minded people with disposable time but little disposable income. This tends to imply: cheap/free music, art, film; public transit; book stores; coffee shops; fast food; ethnic restaurants; cheap apartments; sporting events; access to higher education (duh); and a socially liberal environment.
Some of these are a matter of personal preference, some are irrelevant, and you can probably find any of them independently of being near a college. But "college town" tends to imply the whole package.
One of the virtues of a college town is that the university itself can function as the town theater, concert hall, etc., which the town itself may not be able to afford.
It also gives some assurance that the stream of newcomers will keep the town from turning into one of those godforsaken places where all the children leave by the age of 18 and the residents sit on their porches with shotguns in their laps, hoping the creek doesn't run dry and ruin the crops
It also gives some assurance that the stream of newcomers will keep the town from turning into one of those godforsaken places where all the children leave by the age of 18 and the residents sit on their porches with shotguns in their laps, hoping the creek doesn't run dry and ruin the crops