Learn to be easy to live with?

All the different ways of solving the shelter problem. To be static or mobile? Roots, legs, or wheels?
shelob
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Re: Learn to be easy to live with?

Post by shelob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:59 am

That said, bearing in mind that I am not expert on Kegan levels, I don’t believe they can explain all/most forms of bad or unpleasant behavior. For instance, is Geoffrey House a Kegan2? Are the characters in “Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Kegan 2s?
Sure, not all unpleasant behavior comes from someone being at the 2nd Kegan level. It’s just that it was people who I’m pretty sure fit the Kegan2 description who were behaving unpleasantly, and that this required a different kind of solution than frictions with the other roommates, who thankfully were the majority. With them, talking amicably about potential issues before they could arise was more than enough.
These two people (there were more who I managed to avoid) seemed to always use whatever standard benefited them most, e.g. the the one who was picking on my table manners had bad etiquette herself. The other gave a spectacular impression of suffering from her leg injury when she wanted me to clean her mess and pack her mission pack, but barely limped when it would be limiting her ability to do something she wanted to do. With both of them, the only way I managed to get them to direct their unpleasantness elsewhere was to escalate/retaliate. Zero-sum transactional describes it pretty well.

And yeah, I’m also definitely in a period of bliss/honeymoon phase that’s perhaps common for my age known as “simply leaving home”. And earning a living independently. And not having a moral obligation for upholding expectations other than my own. It’s an absolutely awesome feeling. I’m curious to see how long it persists/when a new normal settles in. Eight weeks and counting.

I think a key to setting and maintaining appropriate boundaries is having a sort of “power base” outside of the relationship within which you are attempting to draw boundaries. This can be anything, but at the most basic level, it’s the ability to walk away.

(This isn’t my insight btw. Over at the MMM forum, where I used to lurk before coming here, there is a prolific poster who often gives advice in the “relatives who just don’t get it” thread. She mentioned an ebook she wrote on the subject of dysfunctional relationships called “The seven servants of the toxic emperor: Enabling roles and how to break out of them” (by R.A. Williams). Most people wouldn't get much or anything out of it, but I found it quite entertaining and useful.
Though the target audience for most of its practical advice is people who have their lives much, much less together than someone pursuing ERE. I mainly found the analysis helpful. )

Preferred style of boundary maintenance is Advanced stuff, Healthy Relationships 201 at least :D
I’m still on the high school curriculum. But interesting to think about nonetheless.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Learn to be easy to live with?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

“shelob” wrote: I think a key to setting and maintaining appropriate boundaries is having a sort of “power base” outside of the relationship within which you are attempting to draw boundaries. This can be anything, but at the most basic level, it’s the ability to walk away.
True, but few of us are actually lacking that in 1st world context, and still we have difficulties. For instance, when I was a member of a troubled marriage support group, I was also Facebook friends with several other group members. The happy story presented there was often in stark contrast to the misery shared in group. So, ego attachment to being perceived as successful at being happy or happy at being successful can be a huge limitation.

One problem I have, among many, is that I am somewhat irrationally terrified of being stalked by an ex if I don’t end things under absolutely amicable and fair terms. Even then it can still happen. Generally, my ability to enact boundaries is somewhat limited by my physical cowardice.

shelob
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Re: Learn to be easy to live with?

Post by shelob »

True. Emotional attachment, image maintenance (including toward oneself), sunken cost fallacy etc are just as good as debt or inability to provide for oneself at keeping people where they are. Or shared responsibility. I wouldn't be able to image the sheer messiness of such situations if I hadn't witnessed my parents, both independently capable people, trying and failing to go their separate ways for several years now. A new local minimum occurred yesterday when I helped my dad transport a WW2-era refrigerator out of now-Mum's basement using my army-issued ABC mask. It started leaking SO2 on the staircase. Which, I've now discovered, elicits a feeling of burn in one's throat much like pepper spray does, only it persists longer.

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:28 pm
True, but few of us are actually lacking that in 1st world context, and still we have difficulties. For instance, when I was a member of a troubled marriage support group, I was also Facebook friends with several other group members. The happy story presented there was often in stark contrast to the misery shared in group. So, ego attachment to being perceived as successful at being happy or happy at being successful can be a huge limitation.
For the people I know who use social media, any disconnect between their lived reality and what they show to others will be amplified by social media. I think that might make this limitation even stronger.

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Jean
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Re: Learn to be easy to live with?

Post by Jean »

You mentioned non violent communication. I think you should dive into it. It's a very powerfull tool to solve conflicts in a way that leaves everyone happy.
It's all about acknowkedging everyone's need, and i think it is less ideologicaly biased than kegan's model.
It allowed me so many Times to get angry peoples to see my viewpoint and do something that was ok for me. It is Also helpfull when conflicts are unsolvable.

shelob
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Re: Learn to be easy to live with?

Post by shelob »

Thank you for your answer. I will do that. I found what you wrote helpful because it reminds me to not lose sight of what is possible when I’m caught up in the day-to-day struggles, and to keep striving. Thanks. When I tried to explain how I arrive at the following statement, it sorta escalated, so. Ahem.

@ertyu‘s recommendation to first read books on boundary communication made sense to me, so I looked up a few. I think I’d currently struggle to use NVC effectively, though I have a sense of the potential. E.g., the empathy component seems to require a social perception which I currently just don’t possess.

To give an example, when I was the primary caretaker of my grandmother (she has something like dementia, not sure of the exact medical diagnosis) there was one evening where I wanted to bring her to bed but couldn’t calm her down. She kept getting more and more upset, afraid of shadows and people long dead and who knows what else. My Mum called at some point, and I was so grasping at straws that I handed over the phone. They talked for an hour, and afterwards my grandmother was calmer and more serene than I’d seen her in months. Here’s the thing though. I heard both sides of that conversation. Every word, and yet I have no idea what happened. I don’t know how my Mum knew what to say, and I don’t know why her words had the effect they did. The conversation just went right over my head.

(I asked, and she said the trick is to affirm the patient’s experiences. I don’t know how to figure out what experiences I need to affirm. Btw, I think she’s trained in NVC. )

I can think of a few more examples, and they’re all reminiscent of how in a WL table 2+ levels up seems incomprehensible, while it’s really easy to feel contempt for what’s going on a few levels down.
(To clarify, by WL table I mean a progression of depth of insight/ skills that are each different in kind.)
Now, I can’t figure out what the columns should be. Maybe “power literacy” and “empathy” are candidates.

To compare and contrast this with my (very) preliminary understanding of Kegan, I see that they aren’t the same. In particular, an aspect of Kegan seems to have to do with what makes up (parts of) the theory of mind – subjects and objects – at different developmental stages. As one moves up levels, the theory of mind becomes more powerful. One gains the insight that other people’s theory of mind can be very different from one’s own, even or maybe in particular in aspects that seem fundamental to one’s experience of being. It becomes possible to run nuanced simulations of other people’s theory of mind, especially those who are differently socialized (Kegan 4, right?). I’m pretty sure there are parallels between how theory of mind might have developed and Kegan’s evolving self. And that subject-object shifts can occur in more mental “categories”, so to speak. This* describes a different subject-object shift, and I’m, again, pretty sure I could find more (maybe digging through Hegel?).

*Disclaimer: Not endorsing the other contents of that link


Ok, now it’s at the stage where it’s overkill for the immediate roommate situation. Though not so much for the lifelong problem of how to coexist with other people, if it doesn’t come naturally. I’ll approach them as different problems from now on :lol:

ertyu
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Re: Learn to be easy to live with?

Post by ertyu »

shelob wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:20 pm
I don’t know how to figure out what experiences I need to affirm.
The answer is literally, the ones they tell you about.

In its most basic form, this looks like so:

Dude A: rant about some dumb shit his boss did.
Dude B: wow what an asswipe

Dude A: there was a shitton of traffic on X road this morning and I was late for work
Dude B: that sucks

What basic form does: was this person mad, glad, or sad? reflect this in a basic filler phrase (oh cool / that sucks / what a shitstain)

Level 2:

Dude A: so i finally asked my boss to work from home one day a week and he agreed
Dude B: oh cool! great job man! what will you do with the extra time you're not commuting?

- recognizes good news
- recognizes that if dude A said "finally," it means he was probably procrastinating on the decision or was a bit of a chicken about talking to boss. so you're saying good job because he overcame something and nutted up.
- moves the convo along by asking a question for more info that you can ask more questions about later.

Obv these examples are made up and may sound a bit artificial but you get the point.

How this sounds with grandma:

- literally actually listen to the ravings. so instead of, Grandma: demented shit, You: (ignores demented shit) grandma pls let's go, you listen to the demented shit and use reflecting phrases ask questions about it. It might be demented shit, but it's real to grandma's brain. So you treat it like a real actual thing someone is complaining about. This will probably not get you to your mom's skill, but i bet just listening to your grandma (and making sure she knew she was listened to) would have gone a long way towards calming her down just because people calm down when their worries are taken seriously.

Grandma is probably next level skillz, but you'll get a long way with simply listening for whether people sound mad, glad, bad, or sad--and then extending that with differentiating within those, like, if they're mad, are they frustrated or are they offended or are they angry-angry or what are they.

shelob
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Re: Learn to be easy to live with?

Post by shelob »

Jean wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:12 am
You mentioned non violent communication. I think you should dive into it.
Will do that. I might not get a whole lot of it right now, but I'll just read-> try to apply-> repeat for probably forever :lol:


@ertyu

That sounds plausible. I've now paid more attention to it and I've now twice been in a situation where this template actually helped me. Where generally just listing was helpful. It's also become clear that I need to put more work into correctly identifying people's emotions :? So, work in progress :lol:

slsdly
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Re: Learn to be easy to live with?

Post by slsdly »

I know the talk is mostly about romantic relationships, but this thread reminds me of Alain de Botton's "On Love." https://youtu.be/Ctz6eJ3Pr94?t=881

"Everybody from close up is trouble."

It still makes me laugh.

I know I am not always easy to live with. I am quirky, opinionated on all manner of things, including many which are not really that important in the grand scheme of things. It has taken a while, but on the whole, I think de Botton sets a good foundation here, where others don't need us to be perfect, but they do need us to "have a handle on our imperfections." I would say that is true of anyone who spends a lot of time, or shares much space with another human being.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Learn to be easy to live with?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@slsdly:

Very funny and very true. What I might have to disclose on second date would be something like:

If you choose to continue dating me, and we end up wanting to eat dinner together most nights and share bed space, one thing that will eventually happen, not right away, there will be a honeymoon period in which it seems like I am highly interested in you and your interests - almost the ideal cheerleader and helpmate type, is that one day you will come home and find that there is a lithography machine in the middle of the living room, because I happened upon an ad in Craigslist offering a free lithography machine, and I suddenly had a bright vision about how lithography would be the best, next new thing I could learn.

The next day, 10 books from the library on the topic of lithography will have been added to the stack next to my reading chair, and for the first time I will have forgotten that it is Friday, the day I usually make you salmon patties for dinner, just like the 1950s cookbook version your grandmother made. I will apologize and whip them up in a jiffy, but you will not quite be able to suppress peevish notion that they don’t taste as good because not “made with love.” For months you will tolerate the hulking dominant presence of the lithography machine, which seems almost human-like in its determination to block your direct path to the front door, and you will also attempt to not be increasingly be annoyed by my seeming ability to achieve multiple orgasms while my mind is still focused elsewhere.

Then, just as suddenly as it appeared, the era of intense lithography will be over, and there is a narrow opening of opportunity for once again rekindling my interests in accordance with yours, IF you have gone to the trouble of coming up with something new in the meanwhile, but the machine will remain in the middle of the living for a good while longer, like a giant post-it note or an extra large bread crumb marking path to perhaps be revisited. If at that juncture, you place the ad in Craigslist yourself, and have it hauled away without even asking my leave, the good note would be that I might not even notice or even actually be a bit relieved, but any serious attempt to displace the lithography machine while it is still my primary focus will likely result in relocation of both machine and myself to other realm.

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