@Riggerjack, the small fan I am setting up is blowing *through* the metal tube? And then the water is collecting on the inside of the tube, and dripping into a receptacle?
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Reep's adventures in moisture control include:
- Trip to Home Depot today
- Purchase of substantial quantity of microfiber cloth towels (one of my problems was using my two hand towels to wipe down everything and then having them be soaking wet and useless)
- Wiping every moist surface down
- Almost bought borax (for mold), but sadist said he had some he'd give me, so I will get that on Saturday in exchange for brownies, etc.
- Hanging towels outside after they have been moisturized (where they will be rained on until I put them in the dryer)
- Realizing that the fan under the propane oven condenses a lot of water and that is dripping onto the floor (thought the sink was leaking yesterday, did several mop ups, tried in vain to find a leak)
- Leaving multiple (screened!) windows open and the vent fan on full-speed when I went into town (helped only a little bit. Came back to find several hundred tiny flies gathered on one window. Perplexed.)
- Plugging in another, larger dehumidifer. At present, I have the ability to dehumidify 379 sq feet, and actually have only 230 sq feet that I need to dehumidify
- Purchase of giant bag of calcium chloride. Poured a bunch of it into a plastic tupperware, which I then tucked into the kitchen sink cabinet. I understand that, in theory, I can dry this stuff out in the oven and then re-use it. I confess I have no idea how to safely dispose of it. Is there even a way to safely dispose of it?
- Creation of boat heater by using candle and two flower pots stacked in unique configuration. I think design could be improved with addition of thermal mass. Rocks and some kind of mesh wiring, maybe, or filling most of inside of ceramic pot with clay. There is very good clay on site here. I would need to go dig some up.
- Put crockpot outside today. Significantly less steam released into RV. Also vented it outside. Attracted many thousands of tiny bugs which fried themselves on the outside heated element. Extra protein.
- Turned propane heater down. Online sources saying propane is a wet heat, generates moisture. Space heater and boat heater maybe less so? Seeing conflicting information -- basically that yes, propane creates moisture, but is fully vented to outside world. I think that additional moisture in the immediate surrounding area may have been adding to the problem when the window on that side of the RV was partially cracked.
- At present, vent fan is fully on and all windows are closed. I was told by resident mx guy/RV owner that doing this is unhealthy and that it is sucking the air right out of my lungs. He proved his point by opening the window a little bit and then calling my attention to the noise the vent fan makes when that happens. The noise does indeed change. Still, it seems like plenty of air is still coming in as I can feel a draft being pulled in around the door. I have tried to google this on RV forums and not seen anything that supports the unhealthiness of this practice. It seems to be doing the most help. Candles seem to be burning just fine and have been for several hours, and carbon monoxide alarm has not gone off. I will, of course, blow the candles out to sleep. If doing this is unhealthy and somebody knows that, or can figure that out based on their understanding of how RVs work, please let me know!
Results of all moisture control efforts after several hours:
- Windows and frames that were completely dripping with moisture this time last night are currently dry for the most part
- Still some moisture behind the mattress head, even though I've had it pulled away for the wall for several days
- Uncertain if I'm doing something dangerous with running the vent fan without a window open
- Skin feels dryer
Possible contributing factors unrelated to anything I've done:
- It seems warmer outside tonight than it was last night
- It also rained a bunch today
Future moisture control adventures might include:
- Putting a foam insulation pad underneath the mattress, where, post research that indicated moisture collected there, I did indeed find dampness
- Or finding a way to prop the mattress up during the day so it can dry?
- Or insulating on the underneath of the platform that the bed is on?
- After visiting Tiny House people yesterday and experiencing radiant floor heating, imagined possibilities of buying greenhouse seedling mat and putting rug down over it. Uncertain if beneficial for moisture, but truly amazing experience for toes
- Riggerjack's metal sculpture idea
- Getting a humidity measurement widget for inside and outside, cuz curious
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Answers to questions/thoughts/random musings
Am not going back and checking through the thread line by line, but have read all of your posts. Much appreciation.
- There is no particular aesthetic that the community desires. There are people living here in total heaps. However, they have decided that they do not desire more yurts and took some down several years ago. Having spent the night in Witch's partially insulated and equipped with wood stove yurt recently...no.
- I am aesthetically oriented to a certain degree. I dislike plastic. I like wood. I like metal roofs.
- RV designers don't design with wood, mostly, of course. They are designing things to be much lighter weight and to travel much more frequently than I think folks with TH usually plan on. Certainly I don't intend to go on a tour across America in this thing.
- Lots of talk in building TH about wind shear, vibrations, attaching roof with hurricane clips, etc. Uncertain if moving-house problem/difference between boats/carts/RVs has really not been solved? Not an architect/engineer. People smarter than me do seem aware of the fact that they are designing a building to withstand an earthquake + high winds regularly.
- Major major issue with condensation is single pane car-style window in RV. I have seen conflicting things about installing dual pane windows, which do exist and I have/am considering replacing my single pane with better ones. Some people saying that the vibrations in the light weight trailers cause cloudiness/loss of function in the windows when the gas leaks, and that this happens after a trip or two. Tiny house lady yesterday showed me model that had gone 4000 miles with high-quality dual pane windows that are designed for houses. No cloudiness. She said some minor cracking in wall around one window frame seen after first trip. Since then, no problems.
- Other factor is heat; don't want to cut holes in anything in the RV. Wood stove would really change the game. Evaporate a lot of moisture. Contemplating removing a window and building a box out the back, bracing bottom of box against back bumper, and installing tiny wood stove inside window box. Probably not road worthy, but easily removable and can put window back on when needed and cut no holes in RV that aren't already there. Also insurance would just love this.
- I have shore power here. I use electricity for a lot. I trip the breaker at least once a week, when I forget to turn off the space heater when I'm boiling water (usually). I am told I need a better (12v) extension cord to reduce fire risk. I have one sitting in my amazon shopping cart, along with a bunch of other things. I can also do many of the things I do with electricity, with propane. It's a mix. I've unplugged the microwave and am using it to store spices; now I'm cooking with a crockpot when I'm not baking or cooking on the stove. I have a teapot I could put on top of the stove; I could also boil with the electric kettle. I could use propane or a small space heater or both. It's cheaper for me to not buy propane all the time because electricity is rolled into my rent. Long term, I'd like to have something with more solar/battery capacity (this has a little bit -- enough to run the lighting, charge my phone, and run the water pump).
- Sleeping loft problems may have been resolved yesterday. We saw a floating loft layout with floating stairs. Queen size bed, substantial storage space (including built-in platform under the mattress), stairs could have been storage stairs. Major immediate reason for no loft bed was that dog can't climb a ladder and I thought I didn't like how much space stairs took up in a TH. Having now seen a space with stairs for real (and dog also tested them and found them satisfactory), I can see the benefits of planning on sleeping upstairs. The set-up was just fine, well-designed. Worked for the space. And I am a shorty, so actually sleeping with my head just a couple of feet under the ceiling doesn't bother me and might take advantage of my ergonomics better.
- Biggest issue with RV (other than moisture) is obnoxious and tiny kitchen layout. Not enough counter space, mostly. I'm constantly moving shit around while cooking. TH I toured yesterday was a foot shorter than my RV but had a twice-the-size kitchen without feeling cramped or even compromising on bathroom/living room size. Mostly because ceiling was taller.
- I don't *need* as much bathroom as the TH I toured had. I don't really understand why anyone bothers with a kitchen sink and a bathroom sink in these things. Seems like you could get by just fine with the former. Though they managed to put in a washer dryer combo in the bathroom, which was impressive.
- I think I have some value/attachment around understanding 100% of how my house works/is made, from a self-sufficiency/skill perspective. That's coming up as an important part of this process as I think about "why not a shell, why not retrofitting something you buy, why not a single wide, why not a xxxxx." Sense of satisfaction: priceless.
- Friend of friend and tiny home builder very dismissive/disparaging of amateur builds. Lots of problems with them. Re-dos. Often hired to fix things that people with good looking instagram models have fucked up.
- Am considering doing a shell + some interior framing with tiny house company and financing that build (and participating in shell build on their site), then paying cash/building out interior myself/with help from friend of friend. Financing does not make financial sense -- best rates I'm going to get are 6%. I could just do it all in cash. But then I would have less cash sitting around in my money market/CDs/high interest checking account. Yeah...I'm not really investing right now. I should be, I guess -- with the pension I could take a lot of risks in the market. But I am really into sitting on my pile of gold and cackling at hobbits. Not logical. Not rational. And then generally when I end up taking on debt I feel all weird about it until I pay it off, which generally happens a hell of a lot faster than the payment plan calls for, regardless of interest rate.
Reep's Tiny House Dilemma
Re: Reep's Tiny House Dilemma
A few notes.
My GF got a diesel heater in her camper. It really helped a lot with the moisture. She bought a russian one for about 600.- A wood stove could be even better, but a wood fire in a small space is going to heat a lot, and wood is often less practical than diesel.
Burning candles inside your rv is actually dangerous because of carbon monoxyde. Only in switzerland, several people die because of it every year. I'de get a CO detector (30$?). It could also save you from anyone knocking you out by injecting CO (which could permanently dammage your brain or kill you) into your rv while you sleep, in order to raid your rv. This much less likely than you killing youself by making a bad fire.
There are three way to avoid condensation
A condensation trap like described by riggerjack
A lot of airflow (but it means a lot of heating when it's cold outside)
Warm wall, which if you want warm air too, means that you need insulation between you inner walls, and the outside. You could reinsulate your RV (probably very difficult) How difficult would it be to build a giant blancket out of tarp and glass or stone fiber rolls to put around you're rv? That was the plan if the petrol heater hadn't reduced the moisture problem enough in my gf's bus.
This is what I was suggesting to buy and remodel. Here you can find them in different size for a few thousands
They come with round roofs as well. Many people live in this kind of stuff around here, and you can make them really confy and cute.
My GF got a diesel heater in her camper. It really helped a lot with the moisture. She bought a russian one for about 600.- A wood stove could be even better, but a wood fire in a small space is going to heat a lot, and wood is often less practical than diesel.
Burning candles inside your rv is actually dangerous because of carbon monoxyde. Only in switzerland, several people die because of it every year. I'de get a CO detector (30$?). It could also save you from anyone knocking you out by injecting CO (which could permanently dammage your brain or kill you) into your rv while you sleep, in order to raid your rv. This much less likely than you killing youself by making a bad fire.
There are three way to avoid condensation
A condensation trap like described by riggerjack
A lot of airflow (but it means a lot of heating when it's cold outside)
Warm wall, which if you want warm air too, means that you need insulation between you inner walls, and the outside. You could reinsulate your RV (probably very difficult) How difficult would it be to build a giant blancket out of tarp and glass or stone fiber rolls to put around you're rv? That was the plan if the petrol heater hadn't reduced the moisture problem enough in my gf's bus.
This is what I was suggesting to buy and remodel. Here you can find them in different size for a few thousands
They come with round roofs as well. Many people live in this kind of stuff around here, and you can make them really confy and cute.
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basuragomi
- Posts: 420
- Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:13 pm
Re: Reep's Tiny House Dilemma
There is nothing wrong with running the fan with doors and windows shut. There is an upper limit on how much of a vacuum your vent fan can draw - the point where it cannot push hard enough to overcome back-pressure from the exhaust and hence moves zero air. This is typically around 1" H2O/~0.25 kPa. So even if your RV was perfectly sealed (it is not) and the fan was running flat out (it is not) it would likely create a vacuum equivalent to ~30 metres/100' higher elevation. Hardly a big deal unless you really believe in Korean Fan Death.
Most homes have a lot of dry buffer air and insulation to prevent condensation. You don't have either so you need to rely on balancing moisture sources and sinks. Or superheating with lots of airflow like Jean mentioned.
Try minimizing moisture sources and run dehumidifiers - close all windows, draw in the minimum amount of fresh air, use electric stoves and heaters instead of burning propane/candles indoors, boil water outside or cook via microwave. This maintains your home interior as a pocket of dry air which will not condense water (unless it's really cold outside). Then stop mixing moist outside air with dry inside air - leave windows closed and don't leave your door open. This should keep moisture input at a level that the dehumidifiers can handle as they continue to dry out your stuff.
Most homes have a lot of dry buffer air and insulation to prevent condensation. You don't have either so you need to rely on balancing moisture sources and sinks. Or superheating with lots of airflow like Jean mentioned.
Try minimizing moisture sources and run dehumidifiers - close all windows, draw in the minimum amount of fresh air, use electric stoves and heaters instead of burning propane/candles indoors, boil water outside or cook via microwave. This maintains your home interior as a pocket of dry air which will not condense water (unless it's really cold outside). Then stop mixing moist outside air with dry inside air - leave windows closed and don't leave your door open. This should keep moisture input at a level that the dehumidifiers can handle as they continue to dry out your stuff.
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George the original one
- Posts: 5406
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
- Location: Wettest corner of Orygun
Re: Reep's Tiny House Dilemma
You have enough discipline to keep the kitchen sink from becoming clogged with dishes that it would work. Some of us do not. Counter space in the RVs I've used is oriented towards having table & seating space for more people than live with you. I think you've got a good grasp of what will work for you!reepicheep wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:51 am- Biggest issue with RV (other than moisture) is obnoxious and tiny kitchen layout. Not enough counter space, mostly. I'm constantly moving shit around while cooking. TH I toured yesterday was a foot shorter than my RV but had a twice-the-size kitchen without feeling cramped or even compromising on bathroom/living room size. Mostly because ceiling was taller.
- I don't *need* as much bathroom as the TH I toured had. I don't really understand why anyone bothers with a kitchen sink and a bathroom sink in these things. Seems like you could get by just fine with the former. Though they managed to put in a washer dryer combo in the bathroom, which was impressive.
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reepicheep
- Posts: 383
- Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 7:45 am
Re: Reep's Tiny House Dilemma
Reep's Further Adventures in Moisture Control:
- Boiled water outside today
- I took out the standard toilet (goes to a black water tank) and put in a compost bucket awhile ago. Literally, a bucket. You can get bucket toilet seat lids at Home Depot. The site has a compost toilet system already set up alongside their standard septic system. Not a lot of people use it in the winter, from what I can tell, because we're talking about outhouses over open barrels, here. But I just grab wood chips from the common stock and bring them to my RV in another bucket, and then take responsibility for adding my compost barrel to the common barrels every so often. However, urine in this bucket is a PITA. Makes it heavier and I have to empty it more frequently. Sometimes I pee on a tree when I'm outside, but my solution has been mainly to pee in the bathtub. I bought a device that lets me pee standing up and direct the urine flow (I now see why it is fun to write your name in the snow). To minimize moisture/needed cleaning in the tub, I've rigged up a funnel directly into the drain. I have pretty good aim.
- Propped up the mattress on a meditation cushion and a foam roller today to increase airflow. Bottom did still feel damp. I think if I prop the mattress up in the mornings a little bit in different configurations and keep the fans and dehumidifers running that will probably manage the moisture problem underneath okay. Going to spray some borax under there when I get it.
- Have been running the bathroom fan and the kitchen stove vent fan since about noon yesterday. Last night, I stuffed an insulating block of foam into the bathroom vent and turned that off, but left the kitchen vent on. Feel somewhat uncertain about the right protocol here -- if I don't block off the bathroom vent and I leave it running, it leaks heat all night. That is not a serious problem until it is. At the moment it's warm enough that I think it'd be okay.
- Running mostly electric heat, propane heater kicks on every so often
- Poured more calcium chloride into a bucket and put that in the storage space underneath my bed.
- Have not cracked windows. Door usage has been in and out, which happens a lot. Can't be helped. Relieved to hear this isn't going to kill me. thank you @basuragomi!!I think running the dehumidifers, fans, heaters, and keeping all the exterior portals closed has been the major factor in reducing moisture load in the last 24 hours.
- Most window frames are now dry on the interior. Some moisture still accumulating on the outer part of the interior frame (this doesn't make sense, sorry. This is still a part of the window that is inside the RV). I am actually content with the level of moisture at this point -- nothing is dripping down the wall, and the drops that remain are very minor compared to what I was dealing with. I think if I spray those surfaces with borax and clean them once a week or so, a little bit of moisture there isn't going to be a big deal. I took screens off some windows and that helps, but I don't want to remove them for every window.
- Still having moisture accumulation problems underneath the kitchen sink, doesn't appear to be coming from the pipes themselves at all (dry as a bone on the outside) or from the sink or the joints around the sink. I originally thought it was dripping off the fan vent underneath the propane fired stove and then pooling on the floor and underneath the cabinet, as that was showing a lot of moisture on the exterior surfaces, but with all the other changes I've made that exterior fan surface is now completely dry. This fan is connected to the propane heating system and vents directly to the exterior. I believe there's something going on with parts I can't see that are condensing moisture and dripping it -- probably very similar to what
@RiggerJack is describing above.
-- To solve this problem (which appears to be my only major lingering moisture problem at this point) I am considering several possible avenues:
--- At present, I have a microfiber cloth against the interior cabinet surface. Changing that out periodically will help absorb the moisture that is condensing. The calcium chloride underneath the cabinet may or may not be helping, hard to say.
--- Considering moving the small dehumidifer underneath the cabinet. It would fit, but the most ideal way to plug it in would involve cutting a hole in the cabinet, which I don't really want to do.
--- Running the propane heater less. With everything sealed up, the space heater, the electric blanket, and wool clothing seem to be enough to keep me pretty comfortable in the entire space even as it cools off at night. Not a perfect solution, because I believe whatever is going on under there is tied to the propane stove and not just the heating elements.
--- Possible that removing the vent fan exterior and looking at what is going on in there is going to help me figure out a better solution. About to head out of town again so don't really want to unscrew stuff.
@Jean,
Few things. This is essentially a construction trailer, right? I didn't get very far for results in the US when I started googling "roulotte." I'm wondering about the construction of these. Mass produced, cheaply made, designed to be temporary, light-weight...I don't want to swap all my RV problems for the exact same issues, plus more difficult to move.
I have both a smoke detector and a carbon monoxide detector. I will try not to burn my house down. Honestly, the risk is higher from an electrical fire. There is precedent here for that; someone's bus caught fire when he plugged too many things into a power strip. I'm pulling a lot of electricity here and was even before I added the second dehumidifer.
As far as practicality of wood stove vs. diesel...I don't know that diesel would be any better than propane? I'd have to do a hell of a lot to rejigger the RV to burn diesel in the current systems. This is travel trailer; it's towable, it doesn't have a gas tank. I could probably add one on somehow and leave the current propane system set up, but then I don't think that I could cook with diesel (do people even do that?).
Wood stoves do get super hot. It's true. And it's a factor that the guy with a tiny house here on site needs to manage (which I believe he does, by cracking a window). The availability of wood is quite high, though -- I live in the forest. There is a ton of biomass that needs to be burned, and there are regular work parties to collect slash. Mostly stuff that isn't worth burning in the lodge wood stove, but is going to get wood chipped or burned anyway. Not all of that would be good for a tiny wood stove, but some of it would be. It'd take more work from me than filling up propane, though. My life is already kinda "chop wood, carry water."
- Boiled water outside today
- I took out the standard toilet (goes to a black water tank) and put in a compost bucket awhile ago. Literally, a bucket. You can get bucket toilet seat lids at Home Depot. The site has a compost toilet system already set up alongside their standard septic system. Not a lot of people use it in the winter, from what I can tell, because we're talking about outhouses over open barrels, here. But I just grab wood chips from the common stock and bring them to my RV in another bucket, and then take responsibility for adding my compost barrel to the common barrels every so often. However, urine in this bucket is a PITA. Makes it heavier and I have to empty it more frequently. Sometimes I pee on a tree when I'm outside, but my solution has been mainly to pee in the bathtub. I bought a device that lets me pee standing up and direct the urine flow (I now see why it is fun to write your name in the snow). To minimize moisture/needed cleaning in the tub, I've rigged up a funnel directly into the drain. I have pretty good aim.
- Propped up the mattress on a meditation cushion and a foam roller today to increase airflow. Bottom did still feel damp. I think if I prop the mattress up in the mornings a little bit in different configurations and keep the fans and dehumidifers running that will probably manage the moisture problem underneath okay. Going to spray some borax under there when I get it.
- Have been running the bathroom fan and the kitchen stove vent fan since about noon yesterday. Last night, I stuffed an insulating block of foam into the bathroom vent and turned that off, but left the kitchen vent on. Feel somewhat uncertain about the right protocol here -- if I don't block off the bathroom vent and I leave it running, it leaks heat all night. That is not a serious problem until it is. At the moment it's warm enough that I think it'd be okay.
- Running mostly electric heat, propane heater kicks on every so often
- Poured more calcium chloride into a bucket and put that in the storage space underneath my bed.
- Have not cracked windows. Door usage has been in and out, which happens a lot. Can't be helped. Relieved to hear this isn't going to kill me. thank you @basuragomi!!I think running the dehumidifers, fans, heaters, and keeping all the exterior portals closed has been the major factor in reducing moisture load in the last 24 hours.
- Most window frames are now dry on the interior. Some moisture still accumulating on the outer part of the interior frame (this doesn't make sense, sorry. This is still a part of the window that is inside the RV). I am actually content with the level of moisture at this point -- nothing is dripping down the wall, and the drops that remain are very minor compared to what I was dealing with. I think if I spray those surfaces with borax and clean them once a week or so, a little bit of moisture there isn't going to be a big deal. I took screens off some windows and that helps, but I don't want to remove them for every window.
- Still having moisture accumulation problems underneath the kitchen sink, doesn't appear to be coming from the pipes themselves at all (dry as a bone on the outside) or from the sink or the joints around the sink. I originally thought it was dripping off the fan vent underneath the propane fired stove and then pooling on the floor and underneath the cabinet, as that was showing a lot of moisture on the exterior surfaces, but with all the other changes I've made that exterior fan surface is now completely dry. This fan is connected to the propane heating system and vents directly to the exterior. I believe there's something going on with parts I can't see that are condensing moisture and dripping it -- probably very similar to what
@RiggerJack is describing above.
-- To solve this problem (which appears to be my only major lingering moisture problem at this point) I am considering several possible avenues:
--- At present, I have a microfiber cloth against the interior cabinet surface. Changing that out periodically will help absorb the moisture that is condensing. The calcium chloride underneath the cabinet may or may not be helping, hard to say.
--- Considering moving the small dehumidifer underneath the cabinet. It would fit, but the most ideal way to plug it in would involve cutting a hole in the cabinet, which I don't really want to do.
--- Running the propane heater less. With everything sealed up, the space heater, the electric blanket, and wool clothing seem to be enough to keep me pretty comfortable in the entire space even as it cools off at night. Not a perfect solution, because I believe whatever is going on under there is tied to the propane stove and not just the heating elements.
--- Possible that removing the vent fan exterior and looking at what is going on in there is going to help me figure out a better solution. About to head out of town again so don't really want to unscrew stuff.
@Jean,
Few things. This is essentially a construction trailer, right? I didn't get very far for results in the US when I started googling "roulotte." I'm wondering about the construction of these. Mass produced, cheaply made, designed to be temporary, light-weight...I don't want to swap all my RV problems for the exact same issues, plus more difficult to move.
I have both a smoke detector and a carbon monoxide detector. I will try not to burn my house down. Honestly, the risk is higher from an electrical fire. There is precedent here for that; someone's bus caught fire when he plugged too many things into a power strip. I'm pulling a lot of electricity here and was even before I added the second dehumidifer.
As far as practicality of wood stove vs. diesel...I don't know that diesel would be any better than propane? I'd have to do a hell of a lot to rejigger the RV to burn diesel in the current systems. This is travel trailer; it's towable, it doesn't have a gas tank. I could probably add one on somehow and leave the current propane system set up, but then I don't think that I could cook with diesel (do people even do that?).
Wood stoves do get super hot. It's true. And it's a factor that the guy with a tiny house here on site needs to manage (which I believe he does, by cracking a window). The availability of wood is quite high, though -- I live in the forest. There is a ton of biomass that needs to be burned, and there are regular work parties to collect slash. Mostly stuff that isn't worth burning in the lodge wood stove, but is going to get wood chipped or burned anyway. Not all of that would be good for a tiny wood stove, but some of it would be. It'd take more work from me than filling up propane, though. My life is already kinda "chop wood, carry water."
Re: Reep's Tiny House Dilemma
To confirm - probably too late to be useful - yes, burning propane creates a HUGE amount of moisture. The exhaust gas from the combustion of propane is water (vapor), and if you're burning enough propane to heat a camper, you're adding in a massive amount of moisture. The only suitable type of propane heater is one that vents all the exhaust gasses outside. A company that makes good ones for RVs is called Propex. They are expensive. Indoor propane heaters without exhaust venting are a really bad idea. I tried one in my campervan once and it was a total disaster. I never used it again and I sold it. I'm surprised and disappointed that they are so commonly available and used. (Certainly they could be useful in some situations, like having right near you when you're out milking cows in the winter, or maybe heating up an engine block?)
For generating heat, the best way to do it in this case is to burn some wood type object. Basically - literally wood. Those little trendy tiny wood stoves that people put in tiny houses likely work well (though as I recall they are very overpriced). Burning the wood both makes heat AND removes moisture from the air.
But - as you likely know already - if your walls are not insulated well, and your windows are not double paned, it's going to be tough. Unless you get it really dry inside, you're battling the laws of physics by having warm air inside and walls/windows that are cold because of the cold outside temperature.
You seem to be doing great with all your testing. If it's possible to get it sorted out, you certainly will.
For generating heat, the best way to do it in this case is to burn some wood type object. Basically - literally wood. Those little trendy tiny wood stoves that people put in tiny houses likely work well (though as I recall they are very overpriced). Burning the wood both makes heat AND removes moisture from the air.
But - as you likely know already - if your walls are not insulated well, and your windows are not double paned, it's going to be tough. Unless you get it really dry inside, you're battling the laws of physics by having warm air inside and walls/windows that are cold because of the cold outside temperature.
You seem to be doing great with all your testing. If it's possible to get it sorted out, you certainly will.
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jacob
- Site Admin
- Posts: 15979
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
- Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
- Contact:
Re: Reep's Tiny House Dilemma
It would surprise me greatly if the exhaust of a built-in RV heater wasn't vented to the outside. They're too big to be internally vented. Likely there would be a hole in the wall right next to the heater to obviate the need for a "chimney" because much of the heat also goes out with the exhaust as they're not designed to be very efficient as much as they're intended to be cheap and simple. Figure on ~70% to heat the RV and ~30% to keep the birds warm. Likely there would be a second hole for the intake as well.
This is propane burning: 2 C3H8 + 7 O2 -> 6 CO2 + 8 H2O+ Heat ... you can easily feel the dampness in the exhaust.
(Insert usual disclaimer about personal responsibility and not blaming others for being the idiot who gets their face burned off to see how hot the exhaust really is.)
Incidentally, propane cooking stoves have the same issue and it's possible to feel the dampness there too.
Wood burning has water in its reaction products as well... just not so much. Also, since wood stoves ALL have a chimney (I hope!), this water goes outside. So just to nitpick, the wood burning reaction doesn't use up water in the air. The heat lowers the relative humidity.
This is propane burning: 2 C3H8 + 7 O2 -> 6 CO2 + 8 H2O+ Heat ... you can easily feel the dampness in the exhaust.
(Insert usual disclaimer about personal responsibility and not blaming others for being the idiot who gets their face burned off to see how hot the exhaust really is.)
Incidentally, propane cooking stoves have the same issue and it's possible to feel the dampness there too.
Wood burning has water in its reaction products as well... just not so much. Also, since wood stoves ALL have a chimney (I hope!), this water goes outside. So just to nitpick, the wood burning reaction doesn't use up water in the air. The heat lowers the relative humidity.
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reepicheep
- Posts: 383
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Re: Reep's Tiny House Dilemma
Couldn't be the propane bottle cooling the grid bellow dew point?
Concerning the condensation behind your head. How insulated is the wall there? If the wall is cold, you will get condensation no matter what you do.
The advantage of the construction trailer over a rv, is that it's much easier to insulate adequatly for permanent dwelling, while still being much cheaper than a tiny house. It's like buying the first half of a tiny house, but very discounted.
Concerning the condensation behind your head. How insulated is the wall there? If the wall is cold, you will get condensation no matter what you do.
The advantage of the construction trailer over a rv, is that it's much easier to insulate adequatly for permanent dwelling, while still being much cheaper than a tiny house. It's like buying the first half of a tiny house, but very discounted.
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jacob
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Re: Reep's Tiny House Dilemma
The amount of moisture on the bedroom wall/ceiling seems normal. I'd just wipe it down with a towel on a daily basis.
The condensation on the window frame is because you have a cold bridge---the metal frame is likely really cold. If the tape is air-tight and your insulated silver thingy is right up against (touching) the window, leaving no air-gap, there would be little/no condensation on the window. "Right up against" is the way to do it. Alternatively, you could tape a giant silver thingy onto the wall. Check behind once a month though.
The moisture coming out of the heater vent is really weird. I presume you're running the furnace? If not, maybe it's a cold bridge too... I'd look for something else as well; like a water leak under the kitchen sink? In our RV, heating ducts ran under the furniture before exiting to the vents to keep the air in there warm as well.
I don't think you should have your dehumidifier sitting in the cupboard. Where does it vent to? What an electric dehumidifier does is to compress and cool down the air (like an A/C), this increases relative humidity to above the dew point creating liquid water. The cold air is then heated back up so the end result is liquid water + air with lower relative humidity. My question is: Where does that liquid water go? Depending on the design: Either it's collected in a tray inside the humidifier. If so that might be full and that's your problem. Or it's exhausted ... and if it's exhausted inside the cupboard, your net result would be exactly zero (at least to the first order) because thermodynamics.
The condensation on the window frame is because you have a cold bridge---the metal frame is likely really cold. If the tape is air-tight and your insulated silver thingy is right up against (touching) the window, leaving no air-gap, there would be little/no condensation on the window. "Right up against" is the way to do it. Alternatively, you could tape a giant silver thingy onto the wall. Check behind once a month though.
The moisture coming out of the heater vent is really weird. I presume you're running the furnace? If not, maybe it's a cold bridge too... I'd look for something else as well; like a water leak under the kitchen sink? In our RV, heating ducts ran under the furniture before exiting to the vents to keep the air in there warm as well.
I don't think you should have your dehumidifier sitting in the cupboard. Where does it vent to? What an electric dehumidifier does is to compress and cool down the air (like an A/C), this increases relative humidity to above the dew point creating liquid water. The cold air is then heated back up so the end result is liquid water + air with lower relative humidity. My question is: Where does that liquid water go? Depending on the design: Either it's collected in a tray inside the humidifier. If so that might be full and that's your problem. Or it's exhausted ... and if it's exhausted inside the cupboard, your net result would be exactly zero (at least to the first order) because thermodynamics.
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reepicheep
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Re: Reep's Tiny House Dilemma
The area around the bed is quite cool. Very little insulation. Uncertain why that particular wall would have more problems than others, except for my breathing at night.
So, more tape around the giant silver thingy. I can do that.
Seems like there really might be something leaking, though it might be something related to the propane cooling below dew point. Might be something that falls under warranty, I'll look into that.
Dehumidifer vents into a tray, which I empty regularly. It was definitely not full when the video was taken. Given that I am emptying it regularly, is it still a problem to have it in the cupboard?
So, more tape around the giant silver thingy. I can do that.
Seems like there really might be something leaking, though it might be something related to the propane cooling below dew point. Might be something that falls under warranty, I'll look into that.
Dehumidifer vents into a tray, which I empty regularly. It was definitely not full when the video was taken. Given that I am emptying it regularly, is it still a problem to have it in the cupboard?
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jacob
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Re: Reep's Tiny House Dilemma
The bedroom wall likely is you breathing on it all night. Warm human air (at 98.5F and 100% relative humidity) immediately rises and condenses on the cold wall. Especially if you keep the bedroom "door" closed---then it's like sleeping in a cold tent where the walls tend to be wet from condensation in the morning.
Dehumidifier in the closet is not a problem, but I'd keep it in the bedroom.
If it's a leak (is it worse when it's raining?), it could come from anywhere (water travels in mysterious ways). Leaks are some of the must frustrating aspects of RV living---they get worse in proportion to how many holes the RV has.
How cold is it outside relative to inside? Is the furnace running regularly. I still don't understand why there would be moisture on the heating vent. Is it cold to the touch?
Try cranking the thermostat up to 68F and keep it there for a few days and see if the problem persists.
Dehumidifier in the closet is not a problem, but I'd keep it in the bedroom.
If it's a leak (is it worse when it's raining?), it could come from anywhere (water travels in mysterious ways). Leaks are some of the must frustrating aspects of RV living---they get worse in proportion to how many holes the RV has.
How cold is it outside relative to inside? Is the furnace running regularly. I still don't understand why there would be moisture on the heating vent. Is it cold to the touch?
Try cranking the thermostat up to 68F and keep it there for a few days and see if the problem persists.
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jacob
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Re: Reep's Tiny House Dilemma
FWIW, wheeled tiny houses are now legal in Los Angeles. This should open up some backyard space rental.
https://tinyhouseexpedition.com/city-of ... se-zoning/
https://tinyhouseexpedition.com/city-of ... se-zoning/
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Riggerjack
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Re: Reep's Tiny House Dilemma
@ reep
You seem to have a few issues. First, you are cooking, inside, in an RV, in Dexter, in the winter? While it's certainly possible to do so without condensation, that's master class condensation control, and I don't think you are there yet.
If you want to cook, I would recommend doing that outside, until you are comfortable with your conditioned space. Another reason for the rain fly. Outdoor cooking can be awesome, less so in cold rain. There is just too much water vapor in the flame and whatever you are cooking.
The sculpture idea was to make the pipe cold by keeping it in contact with the window. Then blowing air thru it to get condensation to form in the pipe, and let it trickle down to be collected and removed. The heat loss here is small, but focused. Make condensation happen where you want it to. Google "header pipe" to see how to connect a big pipe (that fits your fan) to many smaller pipes. You want the air to move, but not so fast that it doesn't drop off the water you want gone.
Your heater vent looks to be a return air grille. Have you ever felt warm air blown thru it? It's probably the place that air from your RV is passed to the furnace for heating. So the coldest air in your RV is passing through a metal grille on your exterior wall. I'm not surprised at all that you have water condensing there. You need to drop your relative humidity until this no longer condenses water.
The easiest way to lower relative humidity, is to add heat. Crank up your propane heat to 72, or as warm as you need to dry out for a few days, and see how that works. It's not the long term solution, but this should get you to a good restore point. Get dry, then tune up your space.
Also, consider some kind of spacers under your mattress, to improve airflow. Beds will have the most moisture issues in an environment like yours. Used properly, lots of water vapor, sweat, and other fluids in the general area to deal with. You don't want mold issues in your mattress.
You seem to have a few issues. First, you are cooking, inside, in an RV, in Dexter, in the winter? While it's certainly possible to do so without condensation, that's master class condensation control, and I don't think you are there yet.
If you want to cook, I would recommend doing that outside, until you are comfortable with your conditioned space. Another reason for the rain fly. Outdoor cooking can be awesome, less so in cold rain. There is just too much water vapor in the flame and whatever you are cooking.
The sculpture idea was to make the pipe cold by keeping it in contact with the window. Then blowing air thru it to get condensation to form in the pipe, and let it trickle down to be collected and removed. The heat loss here is small, but focused. Make condensation happen where you want it to. Google "header pipe" to see how to connect a big pipe (that fits your fan) to many smaller pipes. You want the air to move, but not so fast that it doesn't drop off the water you want gone.
Your heater vent looks to be a return air grille. Have you ever felt warm air blown thru it? It's probably the place that air from your RV is passed to the furnace for heating. So the coldest air in your RV is passing through a metal grille on your exterior wall. I'm not surprised at all that you have water condensing there. You need to drop your relative humidity until this no longer condenses water.
The easiest way to lower relative humidity, is to add heat. Crank up your propane heat to 72, or as warm as you need to dry out for a few days, and see how that works. It's not the long term solution, but this should get you to a good restore point. Get dry, then tune up your space.
Also, consider some kind of spacers under your mattress, to improve airflow. Beds will have the most moisture issues in an environment like yours. Used properly, lots of water vapor, sweat, and other fluids in the general area to deal with. You don't want mold issues in your mattress.
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reepicheep
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Re: Reep's Tiny House Dilemma
Have discovered the source of my puddle. Every time the pump turns on, it shoots a jet of water out from some bit that isn't fully tightened. Water has been pooling under the cabinet for weeks. In an attempt to tighten a thing I have made the leak worse.
Puddle completely unrelated to propane heater/stove. No visible condensation issues at all.
Hoping campus MX guy will have time for me on Xmas Eve. Plan to bribe with alcohol.
Puddle completely unrelated to propane heater/stove. No visible condensation issues at all.
Hoping campus MX guy will have time for me on Xmas Eve. Plan to bribe with alcohol.
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reepicheep
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Re: Reep's Tiny House Dilemma
MX fixed pump. The filter was loose. Freakin ridiculous that I tried to fix this like it was a condensation problem for weeks. Lesson learned: if bleeding suspected, expose to skin!
MX also put some shiny silver tape around the edges of the propane heater, which was leaking warm air into the underside of the cabinet instead of blowing it through the ducts.
Sprayed my windows with borax. Did some more duct taping on the one. Installed a 12 v air filter designed for a car that plugs into a USB port.
I feel like I might have a handle on this for the first time.
MX also put some shiny silver tape around the edges of the propane heater, which was leaking warm air into the underside of the cabinet instead of blowing it through the ducts.
Sprayed my windows with borax. Did some more duct taping on the one. Installed a 12 v air filter designed for a car that plugs into a USB port.
I feel like I might have a handle on this for the first time.
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enigmaT120
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Re: Reep's Tiny House Dilemma
Nice! I hope that was it.
What is MX?
What is MX?
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reepicheep
- Posts: 383
- Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 7:45 am
Re: Reep's Tiny House Dilemma
Maintenance. Which is an entire department here full of overworked and underpaid people, but I bribe the one who seems most helpful in various ways and generally get my problems addressed fairly quickly.
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Alphaville
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Re: Reep's Tiny House Dilemma
Ok, this is actually on topic, cuz you mentioned you don’t want a loft bed, but it’s separate from the current discussion on condensation.3. Reep doesn't care if your feedback is on topic
What’s your plan for the bed? I’m curious and have some experience.
My living setup is 2 people in a studio apartment, and the bed takes a huge chunk of it.
If you’re building—would you install a Murphy bed?
Since I can’t build here and I move often, I’ve considered a Japanese shikibuton. But I fear the size wouldn’t be for me. However, at your stated height, it might be paradise for you. Since you have high humidity (like Japan does) you need to pick up and air out the shikibuton every day.
Fumio Sasaki recommends a brand whose name I forget, but I’ve found on Amazon before. They fold easily and look well made, but I have not seen one in person. Anyway, I’d check out his book and look up the thing.
I said “bed” but we do sleep on the floor, on some excellent expedition mats that are light and portable, and join together to form a queen size, but it’s a pain to break down the bedding and put away and reassemble the stuff every day, so right now we leave the mats on the floor with blankets and cushions etc. Hence, “bed.” We’ll be adding a rug to make it more of a “bedroom” instead of clearing the space. Maybe some day we’ll get an actual bed, but I don’t know/ don’t know if necessary.
Since we live in a highly walkable area, and the building has some common areas, we don’t really need the floorspace for much else. But I’m always looking out for options, so I thought we could swap ideas about this.
Ok! I hope some of this is useful... If not, thanks for letting me think outloud.