Exactly how cheap can housing be made?

[Smashter]

Out of morbid curiosity, I read more about that area of WV. The county that house is in ranks dead last for life expectancy in the entire country. Males only live 63.5 years, females 71.5.

So I agree, super depressing.

[Jason]

I only know about WV from watching documentaries on the opioid crisis. It's a beautiful place. Mountains and everything. It's just that your neighbors will be shooting each other over prescription pills so they can get high while waiting for the good old days to return when they can get back to shooting each other over coal mining strikes and ancient family feuds about who still owes who banjo strings in exchange for not shooting the son who was dumb enough to believe he was the one who impregnated someone's daughter. And let's face it, if you buy that house, you are WV rich so half your shit will be stolen before you move in. It's not to say I wouldn't enjoy living out my retirement in a place where getting drunk and tap dancing on a picnic table is acceptable because that does seem like fun but I really don't think its a viable option for anyone who wasn't raised there.

[unemployable]

You don't exaggerate by much.

[sky]

Here is another example for the thought experiment:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/128- ... 1423_zpid/?

Located within walking distance from a nice downtown, a larger commercial area, and river side walking paths. This is a town that I would like to live in. The area is known for its lakes, forests and mountain biking paths and is a recreational destination for mountain bikers. It is 45 minutes drive to the "big city" of Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Asking price is US$50,000, so imputed monthly cost is $166. Annual taxes are $1,277 or $106. Insurance would be about $600 (estimate) so $50 per month. I would estimate ongoing maintenance cost of $100 to $200 a month. In addition, the house needs paint and there may be some interior work needed, so perhaps add an additional $10,000 to the purchase price to bring it to a good livable condition, which adds an imputed cost of $33. Utility costs are probably about $100 during spring and fall and $200 during the heating and air conditioning seasons, for an average of $150.

166 Purchase
106 Taxes
50 Insurance
150 Maintenance
33 Initial repair
150 Utilities
655 Total

At $655 per month, this is low cost living but not as low as one might think.

If one totals the taxes, insurance, maintenance and utilities, the monthly cost is $456. This does not include the purchase and initial repair. It does include $150 a month toward maintenance, which includes about $50 a month saving for the next reroofing.

One of the constraints of this cost experiment is that one would live alone. I value privacy and respect this condition of the exercise, however, the example house has three bedrooms. It should be possible to split the house into units or to rent to roommates. In this area one could easily get $500 a month for a unit, perhaps the same or a little less for a single roommate.

I have not seen this house, it may be a wreck inside. It is only an example.

[unemployable]

Hope you like lake-effect snow. I wonder whether utility costs would be more favorable if you went a good bit further south while staying in the midwest, say southern IL/IN or western KY. Price shouldn't be much different, although IL and KY have pension funding issues.

One of the constraints of this cost experiment is that one would live alone. I value privacy and respect this condition of the exercise, however, the example house has three bedrooms. It should be possible to split the house into units or to rent to roommates. In this area one could easily get $500 a month for a unit, perhaps the same or a little less for a single roommate.

At the lowest price levels there's not a whole lot of delta between one bedroom and three or four. Virtually zero in some cases. I was mostly framing the discussion in terms of what a single person would encounter at the entry level in the US. But housing stock generally isn't optimized for mature singles, and outside of cities the economic benefit to choosing the smallest space possible is minimal.

[BMF1102]

I agree Sky, Hastings is a beautiful small town. It's also less than an hour to Lansing, Kalamazoo and Battle Creek. I know many people who live in the vicinity and love it.

As to the original post-

$205 per month (taxes, electric, natural gas, sewer, water and trash) is the running average for the last 18 months for my house. My purchase price was $12,500 (2/1 850sq ft 2 car attached garage, 1/8 acre lot) a complete gut and remodel has cost approximately $25,000. That brings the grand total to $330 a month with the opportunity cost of 4%. I live just west of Battle Creek, MI. Less than 5 miles is multiple manufacturing facilities, down town you have Post and Kelloggs world headquarters and multiple smaller businessess. grocery store less than a mile and larger stores a couple miles farther. My neighborhood is solidly in the middle of the spectrum. You can regularly find homes in similar areas around town for less than $50,000.

[classical_Liberal]

and outside of cities the economic benefit to choosing the smallest space possible is minimal.

I disagree, particularly when pushing the envelope on cost. Utilities alone can cost an extra 50 to 100 a month in a, not perfectly managed, larger space. Plus, all that extra space tends to get used, which mean stuff, and painting, and carpet/flooring, etc. Then there's taxes. Not to mention the time commitment of keeping it clean. Of course it's possible to minimize all of this, but even in a good case, you can easily push costs up 10-20% when dealing in amounts at or below $400 a month. That seems like alot when cheap housing without roommates is the goal.

[Jason]

I have not seen this house, it may be a wreck inside. It is only an example.

You have to assume it is uninhabitable, most likely gutted - no interior pics and shades drawn on external ones. As opposed to WV house which seemed to be owner occupied, my guess its currently a rental.

It reminds me of this story of a couple that bought a Detroit home for $35K.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/23/your ... happy.html

[sky]

Did someone say lake effect?

https://www.zillow.com/hancock-mi/?utm_ ... dc715901e9

Southern Michigan is tropical compared to northern Michigan and the UP.

I think that inland cities in southern Michigan are a good choice at the moment. They are just being rediscovered as low cost, high quality of life places to live.

I live in a coastal Lake Michigan town, and the local government is controlled by pro-tourism, realtors, investor-speculators who don't share the interests of residents who want stable neighborhoods and low cost utilities.

I would like to live up in the Keewenaw peninsula, but I am a little crazy.

[unemployable]

What I was trying to say is that in the cheapest markets, the change in price involved in going to larger dwellings seems to get compressed, more than it does in average markets. I see this both for rentals and purchases. A 1br might rent for $500/mo but a 3br might rent for $700 or less. But then yeah, you have to heat all three bedrooms of that 3br house, and then it's a 1920s house so not the most energy efficient, which is one reason I wouldn't want that $30k West Virginia house.

Maybe this happens because I'm looking at absolute amounts and not percentages. Going from 500 to 700 is the same in percentage terms as going from 3000 to 4200.

[Laura Ingalls]

@unemplyable

I have had four figure monthly electric bills when we lived in a large 1899 farmhouse. The most depressing part was we were still cold all the time. However the rent was $600 and a good chunk of the time we only paid $350 as our renters insurance paid most of it.


@jacob
I think the fee for connection varies wildly from location to location. We presently just pay a flat per kw fee no service fee. The place I just mentioned we paid $55 per month to be connected and the per kw was much lower. I think that had to do with the rural nature of the place. They really didn’t want one meter just servicing one outdoor light or one cattle water pump.

[Jean]

I really loved Houghton, but Real estate was quite expensive, renting inclused.

[classical_Liberal]

What I was trying to say is that in the cheapest markets, the change in price involved in going to larger dwellings seems to get compressed, more than it does in average markets. I see this both for rentals and purchases.

Yea, I agree with this. It's just that the extra space makes it not nearly as cheap ongoing. Add to this, if you ever did want to share the space with a renter, or rent the whole place out, it's pretty tough to find a quality renter in the areas housing is so cheap. Which is why the idea of a very small house is so much more appealing, but they tend to be few and far between. It's also why I basically gave up on the idea, for now, and decided to rent in areas that are a bit more desirable to live.

Going to your point of large percentage increases are only small actual dollar amounts. Right now I'm paying about $500 a month, inclusive of utilities, in a one-bed apartment, slightly larger living space than that house. So, basically double the cost, although I live with my GF so it's only $250 for me. However, I live in a small college city about 250K population, near the downtown(*). All of the free and low cost activities available within walking/biking distance more than make up for the housing cost increase. It allows me to be more social and build up a bit of social capital. I actually like where I live too. Which brings me back to the point of lifestyle first, housing second.

*Cost of living index in the city I live is almost dead on 100, meaning it's average for US. The housing COL index subcomponent is actually 119, above average.

[Jean]

When i think of it, my arrangement is reproductible. Just build a small plot, and build a small efficient on it. If not possible, build a bigger (but smallest possible rentable unit), and build another smallest efficient unit for yourself around thé first one. This fits your criterion and allow costs around 100.

[lillo9546]

In safe areas of northern Italy, if you’re willing to live in slowly depopulating towns, you can find decent stuff for as low as 25-30000€.
You’d need to add around 50€/ month for all taxes.
Electricity would be (depending on your consumption but assuming a fairly frugal lifestyle) somewhere between 15 and 30 euros / month (we spend 22€)
Unlimited plan with a owned cell phone is 9€/month in Italy.

Examples
https://www.immobiliare.it/ricerca.php? ... %2C9.09462

These are in a nice part of Italy, with lots of nature and close to lake como.

You can find even cheaper in the south, but wouldn’t be much cheaper and would come with big drawbacks (second world style healthcare, shit infrastructure, mafia, etc).
If you don’t mind the above drawbacks, look for small towns in the Calabria region.

would it be also possible to find a job in those kinda places?

[Seppia]

It’s a 30-45 mins commute to Lugano, Switzerland, where the minimum wage is like $3000 net per month, which would allow you to live like a King in valle d’intelvi.
Or alternatively a 20 min commute to the closest lake como town (argegno) where you can probably find work in the flourishing tourism sector.

[Roark]

The cheapest I have experimented with in Canada is living in a polytarp and wood shelter on government land (95% of our land is owned by the Crown and leased to logging companies). I've only done it in the summer when I also have access to other homes though, so far.

I would have to have multiple family members pass away and piss off several friends with extra rooms who genuinely care for me, to not have access to a room in this area. I think if you own an old travel trailer or fifth wheel, and you're a normal kind hearted person, youve probably done enough nice things for your friends that they would let you park your used RV somewhere on their property.

For winter I go to Mexico and just rent a place because it's really cheap. I also do more dating there.

[unemployable]

This was my thread and we've had inflation, so I'll update.

With housesitting I've gotten it down to zero + fuel between sites + the occasional hotel. (Those count because they're expenses you wouldn't have in a normal person house.) Some $3-400/month in my case but I use it as an excuse to travel around a bit. If were more diligent about reducing travel expenses I could cut down into the $2-300 range.

I'm very close to doing it fulltime. Although now I realize I'm outside the original parameters I've specified.

[mountainFrugal]

I am surprised that the house-sitting strategy is not more common on the ERE forums as it could also appeal to the travel bug crowd. @unemployable has demonstrated it can work part and now close to full-time.

[Roark]

I am surprised that the house-sitting strategy is not more common on the ERE forums as it could also appeal to the travel bug crowd. @unemployable has demonstrated it can work part and now close to full-time.

I travel. The reason why I don't look into housesitting is because I probably can't travel the same way, and it probably works out to costing more. For example, I can rent a studio apartment in downtown Merida near the walkable city center, or I can housesit some American family's suburban home outside the city, but it would require renting a car and complicating my life. I can also just move from Mexico city one month, to Guanajuato another, to Oaxaca City the next and then Merida the last month of a four month trip, doing 1 month rentals of semi furnished apartments. I can't imagine this would be easy to arrange with house sitting but correct me if I'm wrong, I want to learn. Lastly, I date women when I travel, which requires inviting people over.