I am contemplating senarios of living in a sailboat/RV, and moving to a state where living off the grid would be more feasible. You could say I am allergic to property taxes, standard utility service fees, or any reoccuring bill that is independent of my consumption because it makes me feel like a slave.
Does anyone else imagine life in small places that are perfectly designed off the grid? Does anyone have examples for trailers? The only completely independent options seem to be in ground houses that use thermal mass. Most solar power requires a large foot print (many square feet).
Off grid RV/Trailer ideas?
What about a yurt?
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/11 ... _a_yur.php
It's a bit more permanent than a RV/trailer, but it's a bit more spacious and it can still be moved pretty easily.
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/11 ... _a_yur.php
It's a bit more permanent than a RV/trailer, but it's a bit more spacious and it can still be moved pretty easily.
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jacob
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How off the grid do you desire to be?
Both RVs and sailboats can avoid rent. The sailboat by anchoring out. The RV by staying in state parks. The sailboat moves for free. The RV eats gasoline. Both can be selfsufficient with electricity. The sailboat can dump tanks offshore. The RV needs to find a dumping place (and likely pay for that). The sailboat may generate its own water. The RV probably won't.
The benefits of the RV/sailboat is that they come with most of the off-grid stuff built in. A foundation stick house with its own well, septic tank, ... will ultimately be more off grid in most cases.
Both RVs and sailboats can avoid rent. The sailboat by anchoring out. The RV by staying in state parks. The sailboat moves for free. The RV eats gasoline. Both can be selfsufficient with electricity. The sailboat can dump tanks offshore. The RV needs to find a dumping place (and likely pay for that). The sailboat may generate its own water. The RV probably won't.
The benefits of the RV/sailboat is that they come with most of the off-grid stuff built in. A foundation stick house with its own well, septic tank, ... will ultimately be more off grid in most cases.
A neat community of independents is in Slab City. The Slabs were featured in the movie and book 'Into the Wild.' It is more common in the winter, as it is located in the California desert. Almost all of the RVs (and even a boat on a trailer) had custom set ups for living off the grid. It is quite a neat culture, to see such a collective of people in a community like that.
The sailboat + RV combo is ideal, but, having a "home base" paid for outright is also something that tickles too. Retire Early Lifestyle convinced me of the home base scenario.
I love California, hands down, compared to all the other places I've been or worked in, with Seattle coming in a close second for somewhere to move to. Only problem with California is the taxes - for everything.
Moving to say, Oregon, where taxes are low, would be a good staging for a home base, and then sailing to California would work equally well. Or RV'ing. And then use resources like couchsurfing, or friends, to stay here and do whatever you want to do.
There are nice state parks where it only costs about $10 to $15 per nite.
I'd like to see the numbers expanded out for the different scenarios. I don't know how much a boat slip costs, but I guess you could anchor off shore or something...
I love California, hands down, compared to all the other places I've been or worked in, with Seattle coming in a close second for somewhere to move to. Only problem with California is the taxes - for everything.
Moving to say, Oregon, where taxes are low, would be a good staging for a home base, and then sailing to California would work equally well. Or RV'ing. And then use resources like couchsurfing, or friends, to stay here and do whatever you want to do.
There are nice state parks where it only costs about $10 to $15 per nite.
I'd like to see the numbers expanded out for the different scenarios. I don't know how much a boat slip costs, but I guess you could anchor off shore or something...
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jacob
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I think you can figure boat slips cost about the same as RV spots for similar areas. The 30 times the single night rate will be much more expensive than the monthly rate.
The problem with CA livaboard slips is that they are rare and the waiting list is long. For Berkeley marine, the cost of a slip is about $200/month (this number may be years old) and the waiting time is on the order of 2 years(!).
Note that boat slips is typically paid per foot and if you operate a cat, you either pay for two slips or a big slip.
The reason they are rare is the marinas don't want to allow too many livaboard on site as they apparently tend to turn into boat bums loading the docks up with personal junk, etc. On the other hand, marinas recognize that having people present at all time is helpful in case of a fire, loose boat, etc.
On a similar note the places where you can anchor out are somewhat limited. You shouldn't except to be able find a nice cove [in the bay area] and just anchor out there for a month without getting hassled.
The problem with CA livaboard slips is that they are rare and the waiting list is long. For Berkeley marine, the cost of a slip is about $200/month (this number may be years old) and the waiting time is on the order of 2 years(!).
Note that boat slips is typically paid per foot and if you operate a cat, you either pay for two slips or a big slip.
The reason they are rare is the marinas don't want to allow too many livaboard on site as they apparently tend to turn into boat bums loading the docks up with personal junk, etc. On the other hand, marinas recognize that having people present at all time is helpful in case of a fire, loose boat, etc.
On a similar note the places where you can anchor out are somewhat limited. You shouldn't except to be able find a nice cove [in the bay area] and just anchor out there for a month without getting hassled.
I am interested in completely off grid, but I have not seen a feasible idea that doesn't rely on fossil fuel or electricity from the grid and also remain mobile. I would agree the obvious and possibly best solution is as Jacob recommends "move to the desired climate", then heating, conditioning, and insulation are hardly required. However, I am more curious about how to weather nearly any temperature range on the continent (try not to hate me Jacob) while maintaining a living space at a comfortable 63-77 F. I realize I should just enlarge my range of comfort and dress appropriately, but I like to think this might be accomplished using the right mixture of minimal space, excessive insulation, and the right ratio of renewable and/or cheap energy sources. Water is very promising for energy transfer but it also quickly becomes very heavy. So are batteries which are almost required for the inconsistancy in renewable energy. I have even entertained idea's of heating/cooling only the bed (like a coffin) inside an RV but then your almost back to "dress appropriately". All indicators say living legally requires at least $10 a day to someone:) It seems I will have to commit to a plot of land to acheive a completely off grid design. So I will have to look to states with low property taxes or see how much room is left at slab city! I love the idea of anchoring on a boat, but I always get the impression you will get hassled by the coast gaurd/police if you aren't paying to moor somewhere (even though I wouldn't think a run in would be very often).
The Yurt is a good idea, kind of like a grain silo home I have seen, but I was looking for something a little smaller and something that could stay mobile without tear down. Also, I am pretty sure many places have building requirements that do not allow grey water and solar water heater experiments which usually break code unless professionally installed. I am pretty sure the requirements do not extend to trailers/RV/boats unless maybe you want them insured.
The Yurt is a good idea, kind of like a grain silo home I have seen, but I was looking for something a little smaller and something that could stay mobile without tear down. Also, I am pretty sure many places have building requirements that do not allow grey water and solar water heater experiments which usually break code unless professionally installed. I am pretty sure the requirements do not extend to trailers/RV/boats unless maybe you want them insured.
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jacob
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The Rockey Mountain Institute is built for passive solar and maintains that range without cost. If you design a place from scratch, you can go far.
I think the main issue with passive/off-grid is that the typical solutions is [still] much more expensive that the on-grid equivalents. It is a yuppie thing, like $4000 electric carbon bicycle/segways.
It requires a lifestyle change rather than a technological solution to a lifestyle problem.
I think this is actually what you're trying to do. You'll be somewhat of a pioneer though. Skills and time (particularly in battling zoning) can get you pretty far. Strawbale housing costs little to build (good thing too, because unless the climate is dry, it may require rebuilding every other decade) but has an R rating around 50.
An electric blanket will get you pretty far in the winter.
In general I'm not in favor of using money or effort when adaption is much easier. Personally I prefer loop holes (e.g. no zoning for homes on wheels) rather than battling regulations.
I think the main issue with passive/off-grid is that the typical solutions is [still] much more expensive that the on-grid equivalents. It is a yuppie thing, like $4000 electric carbon bicycle/segways.
It requires a lifestyle change rather than a technological solution to a lifestyle problem.
I think this is actually what you're trying to do. You'll be somewhat of a pioneer though. Skills and time (particularly in battling zoning) can get you pretty far. Strawbale housing costs little to build (good thing too, because unless the climate is dry, it may require rebuilding every other decade) but has an R rating around 50.
An electric blanket will get you pretty far in the winter.
In general I'm not in favor of using money or effort when adaption is much easier. Personally I prefer loop holes (e.g. no zoning for homes on wheels) rather than battling regulations.
I hear you on the yuppie solutions. Most don't ever pay back what is invested if you were to invest the money instead. That is why I bought a used aveo instead of a new 2010 prius or nissan leaf. The savings between a really cheap used car vs. a new electric hybrid never pays back in fuel savings over the life of the vehicle. I would love to go all bike, but this is not practical where I work and live during the midwest winters.
I was thinking that if a place was small enough, the payback might be there for the yuppie premium if you could avoid the general service fees that are often tacked on regardless of usage. I don't know how it is where you live, but where I live the less energy you use the more you pay per KW. So basically it is backward from what the planet needs. Those who waste the most energy get it the cheapest. I can (and do) use electric blankets, but I can not get my tolerance levels below 55 F and comfortable is more like 63 F. I agree that everyone should exhaust lifestyle changes before looking to buy solutions. I didn't mention this, but I was thinking more of what possible energy solutions are there for people who live in unfriendly environments who have exhausted lifestyle changes in the area they live without having to relocate.
I agree that looking for loop holes is better than trying to fight regulations, but it seems laws are always filling them in so that there is a new tax, license, or fine required to enjoy our every "freedom":)
I was thinking that if a place was small enough, the payback might be there for the yuppie premium if you could avoid the general service fees that are often tacked on regardless of usage. I don't know how it is where you live, but where I live the less energy you use the more you pay per KW. So basically it is backward from what the planet needs. Those who waste the most energy get it the cheapest. I can (and do) use electric blankets, but I can not get my tolerance levels below 55 F and comfortable is more like 63 F. I agree that everyone should exhaust lifestyle changes before looking to buy solutions. I didn't mention this, but I was thinking more of what possible energy solutions are there for people who live in unfriendly environments who have exhausted lifestyle changes in the area they live without having to relocate.
I agree that looking for loop holes is better than trying to fight regulations, but it seems laws are always filling them in so that there is a new tax, license, or fine required to enjoy our every "freedom":)
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jacob
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I gotta think about it. It's a worthy project to develop "utility resilience".
(I think I got the financial resilience bagged. This recession has been a zero-impact event as far as this household is concerned.)
On a proactive note, the first thing I've done is to buy a kill-a-watt gadget. Then we'll see...
(I think I got the financial resilience bagged. This recession has been a zero-impact event as far as this household is concerned.)
On a proactive note, the first thing I've done is to buy a kill-a-watt gadget. Then we'll see...
As my job requires constant traveling, i have been thinking in the direction of the RV/boat option (or living mobile in general). Then you almost immediately come to restrictions of being off the grid as not everywhere you can just get the required facilities.
I am quite sure that it can be done, but as already mentioned, there will be a price tag attached to it. But then there is the dilemma of spending that kind of money or not. If at some time in the future there would be a generator that can produces all the energy you need for you and all your descendants to come, then would it make sense to pay that xxx (insert high price tag) now and not needing to worry about your utility bills in the future?
That it can be done proves the Belgian polar research station (http://www.antarcticstation.org/). It came with a 10 million euros ($13.6 million) price tag. But this project is a prototype of what can be done, so using the same principles would be used on for example a small barge or other platform. You should be able to get close to living a comfortable off-the-grid life.
BTW thanks for mentioning Slab City, i was completely unaware of something like that existing! But yeah, I doubt such thing exists in Europe, but.. it can easily exist without me knowing, as those things are not really visible in 'normal' day-to-day life..
I am quite sure that it can be done, but as already mentioned, there will be a price tag attached to it. But then there is the dilemma of spending that kind of money or not. If at some time in the future there would be a generator that can produces all the energy you need for you and all your descendants to come, then would it make sense to pay that xxx (insert high price tag) now and not needing to worry about your utility bills in the future?
That it can be done proves the Belgian polar research station (http://www.antarcticstation.org/). It came with a 10 million euros ($13.6 million) price tag. But this project is a prototype of what can be done, so using the same principles would be used on for example a small barge or other platform. You should be able to get close to living a comfortable off-the-grid life.
BTW thanks for mentioning Slab City, i was completely unaware of something like that existing! But yeah, I doubt such thing exists in Europe, but.. it can easily exist without me knowing, as those things are not really visible in 'normal' day-to-day life..
I guess I need to point out that I am looking for a solution that has a cost advantage over the grid, or at least when projected over 10-30 years of inflated utility bills. More often than not, it is cheaper to invest money to cover utilities than to spend money on a solution to elimante them.
My goal is basically to come up with an off grid solution for people in most climates that can beat the payback dilemma. I don't think this can currently be done, which is why I ask the question, but I think it will be more and more feasible once carbon taxes, inflation (related to the monetary system of the federal bank to support war, government, national banks, and that related to limited resources coupled with growing populations), and our states trying to recoup their overspending through additional taxation. All this additional taxation might be handed to businesses (including utilities), but business always passes the cost down to us. So until cost effective energy solutions are acheived (most likely accomplished in dry climates with lots of sun), eventually, we are not gauranteed to have cheaper utilities than what is currently considered the cost of yuppie technology. This technology will always stay in yuppie price ranges because everything is made using energy, which until fusion is acheived, will most likely be rising. The only hope for it being cheaper in the future is if the government subsidizes it. Which I think would be better than subsidizing our existing food industy. I don't see why a burger should cost more than cherry tomato's...but I digress.
I'm not hell bent on having to "beat the system", but being a fellow saver, I am always trying to exhaust prudent financial decisions and I am hopeful to come up with an idea that might be worth the investment if it can gaurantee independence of future energy speculation or the sad reality of energy depletion.
My goal is basically to come up with an off grid solution for people in most climates that can beat the payback dilemma. I don't think this can currently be done, which is why I ask the question, but I think it will be more and more feasible once carbon taxes, inflation (related to the monetary system of the federal bank to support war, government, national banks, and that related to limited resources coupled with growing populations), and our states trying to recoup their overspending through additional taxation. All this additional taxation might be handed to businesses (including utilities), but business always passes the cost down to us. So until cost effective energy solutions are acheived (most likely accomplished in dry climates with lots of sun), eventually, we are not gauranteed to have cheaper utilities than what is currently considered the cost of yuppie technology. This technology will always stay in yuppie price ranges because everything is made using energy, which until fusion is acheived, will most likely be rising. The only hope for it being cheaper in the future is if the government subsidizes it. Which I think would be better than subsidizing our existing food industy. I don't see why a burger should cost more than cherry tomato's...but I digress.
I'm not hell bent on having to "beat the system", but being a fellow saver, I am always trying to exhaust prudent financial decisions and I am hopeful to come up with an idea that might be worth the investment if it can gaurantee independence of future energy speculation or the sad reality of energy depletion.
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George the original one
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If you can reduce your need for electricity to the bare bones, then the solar panels and wind generators built from scrap are probably cost effective provided your time is not valued too highly. I know exactly what you mean about the large systems being too expensive when penciled out for their lifetime.
The best way to dodge property taxes is to live outside of cities. This is an unfortunate barrier for people who want to be near people! In Oregon, forest and sagebrush land have the lowest property taxes... problem is that an affordable amount of acreage is likely not zoned for a dwelling, so you would have to skirt the zoning by "camping" and water availability is an unknown. Forest land within a mile or two of a rural community should compensate for a lot of the drawbacks of such a property.
Steep forest land that is otherwise unuseable is probably the most affordable. Build an accessory structure (a nice shed or two) and park a travel trailer or motorhome. The shed(s) could be the base for the solar panels and small wind generators and a collector for rainwater that could be made potable.
Building codes allow you to build sheds up to 200 sq ft without a permit provided you follow meet setback requirements. You can also build agricultural buildings (non-dwelling) of large size without a permit, but its usually required that you acquire a siting/zoning permit which might also increase property tax and sign a statement that the building will be unoccupied.
The best way to dodge property taxes is to live outside of cities. This is an unfortunate barrier for people who want to be near people! In Oregon, forest and sagebrush land have the lowest property taxes... problem is that an affordable amount of acreage is likely not zoned for a dwelling, so you would have to skirt the zoning by "camping" and water availability is an unknown. Forest land within a mile or two of a rural community should compensate for a lot of the drawbacks of such a property.
Steep forest land that is otherwise unuseable is probably the most affordable. Build an accessory structure (a nice shed or two) and park a travel trailer or motorhome. The shed(s) could be the base for the solar panels and small wind generators and a collector for rainwater that could be made potable.
Building codes allow you to build sheds up to 200 sq ft without a permit provided you follow meet setback requirements. You can also build agricultural buildings (non-dwelling) of large size without a permit, but its usually required that you acquire a siting/zoning permit which might also increase property tax and sign a statement that the building will be unoccupied.
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George the original one
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George the original one
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Now having gone through that lengthy list of what could be done, it's also worth noting that if you have $60-75k, it is possible to find an abode in some small town in Oregon where you could attach the homemade solar panels & wind generators. This might be nicer living quarters than an RV & shed(s), but the drawbacks being slightly higher property taxes and you won't have the acreage.
What about buying and re-furbing a cruise ship? It's already pre-made to be a floating city. Installing a cogen system and solar panels create limit-less energy.
Also, both Japan and our very own UC Davis here have been working on energy processing from human waste, and the company I work for also has technology that converts landfill gases to energy.
Also, both Japan and our very own UC Davis here have been working on energy processing from human waste, and the company I work for also has technology that converts landfill gases to energy.
100 people with 100k buy-in = $10 mil. Enough to complete the project I would think...
I don't know all the ins-outs, but breaking down each piece of the puzzle would result in the solution. Diesel engine right? Well, free grease collection to build up fuel...etc etc. The city of sunnyvale collects and recycles cooking oil to re-sell it.
I don't know all the ins-outs, but breaking down each piece of the puzzle would result in the solution. Diesel engine right? Well, free grease collection to build up fuel...etc etc. The city of sunnyvale collects and recycles cooking oil to re-sell it.