Jordan Peterson

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jennypenny
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Re: Jordan Peterson

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JBP is on today's episode of Econtalk ... http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2018/0 ... erson.html

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Re: Jordan Peterson

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That podcast was good. Roberts touched on some of the crossovers between JBP's and JLF's ideas and helped me see why JBP appeals to some forumites.

His comments about chaos and order and how to be content were brilliant.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

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Life only exists in the realm of complexity formed through the interplay of order and chaos. When you relax in your strong feminine energy in relationship to the Universe, you are open and receptive to possibilities. So, superficial example of benefit of this stance or pose, is that another person in his masculine energy will likely find you attractive when he meets you for a blind coffee date, if you are in a state of curiosity/hope rather than suspicion/boundary maintenance (coming out of your corner as your own Daddy with a Shotgun from the get-go.) Of course, some of us err on the side of coming out as our own Daddy with a Shotgun a bit too late in the match (sigh-lol.)

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Re: Jordan Peterson

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jennypenny wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:52 am
Roberts touched on some of the crossovers between JBP's and JLF's ideas and helped me see why JBP appeals to some forumites.
Which JLF ideas, specifically?

There are threads of stoicism in that talk.
"Fix yourself before fixing others" reminded me of living in accordance with nature. And "aim high but then focus on the moment" reminded me of the the parable of the archer.

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fiby41
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Re: Jordan Peterson

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ThisDinosaur wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:40 am
And "aim high but then focus on the moment" reminded me of the parable of the archer.
This is the parable of the archer I know of...

One bright, sunny morning, five young boys gathered by the woodland with their bows and arrows. * On this day Drona, their mentor (Acharya) in military science, organized a competition to test their concentration. Across a stream, Drona pointed at a small parrot on a tree. He told the boys, “Today I want to see who among you can strike the eye of that bird across the river.”

The bird appeared tiny from where they were standing, but the boys were confident that they could pass their teacher’s test. Had they not already slew great beasts on their hunts before? How could this small bird pose such a challenge? Anxiously, each one of the young princes waited for Drona to call their names.

Yudhisthir, the oldest among the Pandavas, was called upon first. Taking position by his teacher, he crouched slightly and drew his bowstring taut.

“Can you see the bird properly? Tell me everything you can see, Yudhisthir,” said Drona.

"I can see so many things." replied Yudhisthir, after hastily pulling the arrow and taking aim. "There are so many birds in the many trees around. And I can also see you. There are still many other things I am in a position to see. I could describe them all if you order me to."

Like this, Yudhisthira named off everything he could think of. When he finished, he waited for his master’s final command to shoot. Drona spoke again, “Put down your bow and step back Yudhisthira, you will not hit the eye of the bird.”

Confused and dejected, Yudhisthira silently walked back to his brothers without question. The next name to be called was Bheem's. The hefty Pandava Prince came running forward and stood before Dronacharya. He readied himself with the bow and the arrow.

"My dear Bheema," Dronacharya commanded. "Take aim at the eye of the bird in that tree. but tell me before shooting all that you are able to see besides the target."

Wanting to be thorough, Bheem began to list off everything that met his eyes. “I see the bird, the branch, and the tree. I can see the leaves moving and even more birds sitting on the same tree. I can see the stream, the grass, other trees, the sky...”

"That is enough." said Dronacharya, "Now you need not shoot. Go back and sit with your brothers."

The next Nakul was called forward and asked the same question by the Acharya. He gave a similar answer, naming everything he could see: the tree, it's branch and the parrot on it.
Once again, the the boy was told to put away his bow.

This same pattern continued with Sahadev that followed, who saw only the branch including the parrot on it.

Until finally Drona reached Arjuna. Drona suppressed a knowing smile as the young prince took his place, notched his bow, and drew his string. Arjuna was one of Drona’s favorites.

“Tell me what you can see, Arjuna,” repeated Drona.

“I can see only the bloodred eye of that bird,” replied Arjuna without breaking eye contact with his target.

“Can you not see the green feathered body of the bird, that contrasts so well with its red eyes? What about the trees and the sky? Or perhaps the branch the bird is sitting on?” his mentor asked.

"No gurudev."

"I am glad to hear your answer. There are some questions I should like to ask you. Your success in this test depends on your answers to them. The question I am going to ask should have been clear to you by now. Tell me, what else do you see apart from the eye of the bird ?"

The other Princes expected to hear this time also the same kind of answer given before. As it appeared to them, what else could one do but see the things which happen to be before one's eyes? It seemed in them that the great Acharya was unnecessarily complicating matters and ridiculing them by ordering them to return without shooting. Dronacharya was a great teacher, they had been told. but now they began to wonder whether his greatness depended on confusing things and not accepting straight answers to straight questions.

They were startled to hear him say :“No sir, all I can see is the eye and nothing else,” he said, holding his bow steady and maintaining his unwavering gaze. "I cannot even tell you whether the bird is in the bossom of the tree or on the ground. Everything else has disappeared from my view on my taking aim at the target.

But still he put one more question to Arjun with the sole purpose of making things clearer to the other Princes. His method was to teach through practical examples- exemplified the meaning of his designation Acharya. He asked : "Arjun, till now you were looking at the bird and so you could not see anything else. I think, at present, you are in a position to see different animals, birds, trees and many other things. Could you tell me all that you are able to see?"

Arjun's reply was intriguing to the waiting princes. "Sir! Now I can't even see the eye of the bird. All that I can see now is the pupil... the black tint at the center of the eye's which is to be my target. If you are to ask me whether the eye belongs to a bird or a beast, I am not in a position to reply as I see only the eye and nothing but the eye."

The actual act of shooting now was not necessary, but still he had to go through it just to drive the point home to the other princes.

“Shoot!”

With a loud twang, the arrow sprang from the bow straight into the bird’s eye. A perfect shot. The bird fell with a thud as all the boys looked on in amazement at Arjun.

After a long pause, Drona patted Arjuna on the back and said, “Now you see, young princes, the power of concentration...”

To the maina, its songs,
To the peacock, its hues,
To the tiger, its claws,
To the man- concentration.

~It is in the Mahabharat.

*But these were no ordinary boys. These were the five Pandavas! The Pandava brothers and Kaurava brothers were cousins, and a fierce rivalry between them began when they were only children. These young princes would eventually grow into men of incredible power. The five Pandavas were sons of the five elements- Air, fire, water, earth and space (vacuum.)

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Re: Jordan Peterson

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@fiby41 Thanks for sharing all this info regarding Hinduism. The computer analogy was really illuminating.

I can't really comment intelligently on how it contrasts with Christianity's approach. I know that the Bible and it's ideas have been debated for centuries and methodologies and philosophies about worship were continually evolving or fragmenting through out it's lifetime. For example a monastic vs a Mennonite vs a missionary lifestyle, could be considered differing manifestations of the same philosophical foundation. So I do believe there is some flexibility in terms of practice.

From a JBP perspective, I would say its even more based on the individual rather than Christian doctrine. Or maybe it's more accurate to say, it is based on an interpretation of Christian philosophy rather than dogma and that message is generally abstract enough that it applies to each individual uniquely in their own life.

I guess I see his ideas as fundamentally not religious and more psychological in nature.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

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ThisDinosaur wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:40 am
jennypenny wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:52 am
Roberts touched on some of the crossovers between JBP's and JLF's ideas and helped me see why JBP appeals to some forumites.
Which JLF ideas, specifically?
The goals versus process oriented thinking was a big one.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

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ThisDinosaur wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:37 am
Chaos and Order. Ying and Yang.
Prakriti and Purusha are the dual nature of the Cosmos.

What the Vedas have to say of this Purusha.

Philosophies of Vedanta and Sankhya.

The concept of Prakriti and Purusha is one of the most important aspects in Hindu philosophy. This has been the subject of discussion since time immemorial and was interpreted by different schools of philosophical thought. Now I will try to shed light on these phenomena, Prakriti and Purusha describing the origin and laws of the universe, which have the right to exist in Indian thought and in the modern world.

Prakriti and Purusha - when the concept was formed

Kapila Muni
the conception of Prakriti and Purusha in Hindu philosophy emerged during Kapila Muni. There are no exact records of Kapila Muni's life and time. But Lord Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita, says: "I come as Kapila Muni has come before." By using recently developed powerful planetarium software, it can be found that the planetary positions mentioned in Mahabharat for the date of birth of Lord Krishna had occurred in the sky at 21-07-3227 BC.

Obviously, the fact that Kapila Muni was supposed to live at that time, or long before that. Kapila Muni is even now considered an enlightened sage and philosopher, a very high status.

Kapila Muni created the Sankhya Sutras, which later became part of his Shad-Darshan or six directions of philosophy. This Sankhya philosophy is one such direction, considers the concept of Prakriti-Purusha in great detail.

The Sankhya Philosophy

The word "sankhya" literally means "enumeration". This huge system sets out twenty-five principles on the basis of which the universe behaves. The very root of the Sankhya philosophy is the aspect of dualism in this universe. This dualism should not be confused with the most widespread Christian perception of the struggle between good and evil. But this is also the philosophy of Dwight in Hinduism, where God and the devotee are perceived as two different persons, separated from each other.

The Sankhya philosophy speaks of clear distinctions between Prakriti and Purusha, two aspects that cause the universe to behave in a certain way. According to this school of thought, Prakriti is the material cause of the universe, while the Purusha is the effective cause of the universe.

The Sankhya philosophy states that Prakriti and Purusha are sat (good and real), and both Anaidi (without beginning) and ananta (endlessly - that is, infinity).
Purusha is separated from the material world, therefore, Asanga. Prakriti, as the name implies, is the creator, the performer. Thus, the basic meaning of the Sankhya philosophy is that this world does not need a reasonable creator to launch the processes of creation.

Prakriti
The term "Prakriti" means "what is basic". Prakriti precedes all the rest. This word is a combination of the words "Pra", which means, before and "Crete", implying the cause. Prakriti is one of the pradhana (Cause: Bottom) - the main root that holds the whole universe together. It is the root of everything that ever was created or never happened in the universe. Prakriti never comes out of the causes, but is the cause of all events taking place in the universe. Thus, while Prakriti itself is separated and independent of everything, everything depends on it. Nothing can be done without the participation of prakrti.

Prakriti does not apply his creative powers to himself. Everything that is created is meant for the joy of the soul and spirit (Purusha). In addition, prakriti can not create anything by itself. Its true power can be activated only in union with the Purusha.

Purusha

Unlike Prakriti, Purusha is only Drashta (looking, looking, observing) or Sakshi (Witness) about events in this universe. He just plays the role of spectator and does not create anything. This aspect can be compared to a prism that emits many colors only when light passes through it. Again, unlike Prakriti, Purusha is not material. He does not depend on anything, and not everything depends on him. Purusha, therefore, is far beyond the limits of prakrti and completely separate from prakriti.

Purusha shshashvat (always present and immortal) and nirguna (without qualities or properties). He is omnipresent and goes beyond maya (illusion), buddhi (intellect) and indriyas (senses). Purusha goes beyond time and space and is constant and unchanging. This aspect also does not depend on the consequences of the three gunas or attributes, namely, Sattva-guna (Purity, goodness), Raj-guna (activity, passion) and tamas (inertia, ignorance). Pourusha remains unchanged in any situations represented in the universe and therefore he is sat anita ananda or pure being and consciousness. Accordingly, parameters such as numbers, time, gunas and any other properties do not act on it, it is completely free from any statements and is Nirguna Brahman (Not manifested absolute). In some explanations, one can meet such a moment,

As we see from the above, therefore, Prakriti and Purusha are completely different from each other. Purusha is alive, but inactive, and Prakriti is not alive, but active. Purusha is a manifestation, consciousness, but Akarta (does nothing). Prakriti, on the other hand, is a card (performer), but at the same time, it does not work at the level of consciousness.

Prakriti is affected by the three gunas, but they do not affect the Purusha. The Purusha is always unchanging and hence static. Prakriti, on the contrary, constantly creates changes in this universe, hence, is a dynamic phenomenon. Despite such diametrically opposite relations, they can not function without each other. Prakriti and Purusha must go hand in hand for the normal functioning of this world.

Prakriti and Purusha as the female and male embodiment of the universe.

Indian philosophy sees Prakriti and Purusha as two separate aspects of Brahman or creative consciousness. While Prakriti is compared to the creative energy and vitality of the Mother Nature, Purusha is the consciousness of what is the power of Brahman. While Prakriti attaches the form of a thing, the Purusha helps to manifest them as part of the universal consciousness.

Prakriti works on two levels of being, one higher, and the other lower. The lower level includes the five elements of air, water, fire, earth and ether, and the mind, thinking and alter-ego is the supreme force of "female" energy and is the life force that drives the above elements. Prakriti is Adi-bhuta the First Being, also an eternal element. Adbhuta is the name of Vishnu, the first element containing all the elements, an incomprehensible deity.

At the end of the cycle of the era, all levels of this energy dissolve in the universal Prakriti and at the beginning of the next cycle, which will be created once again. This process can continue and continue indefinitely. Purusha works quietly to create and maintain all the events taking place in Prakriti. According to the Sankhya theory, there are no "real" and absolute destruction of the universe. There is only evolution and changes that occur as a result of this evolution. What is actually happening is that the process of creation, elimination, and rest takes place in a constant cycle.

Before dissolving into each other, the three gunas are in perfect balance. But at the moment of the confluence, when the Purusha comes into contact with Prakriti, this balance is broken and a state called vikriti appears.

With prakriti Buddhi or Mahat arises. Greatness. The first manifestation of the non-attribute entity (Brahma, Brahman) upon its awakening after the cosmic night. The first product of the evolution of this entity. The subtlest substance of the intellect. It is treated as a seed of thought (buddhi), a mental impulse directed outward, before the creation of the world. Motivation, the desire to create, the recognition of their creative abilities and the desire for their realization, to self-realization. Mahat connects the unmanifested divine essence with the manifested world. It is called the great germ, which is formed by the union of the spirit (Purusha) with matter (Prakriti). Mahat generates self-consciousness, selfhood (ahankara, ahamkara). He is associated with the idea of ​​the cosmic mind and identifies the mind (citta). Ahamkara creates the mind, Pancha Indriya (the five senses) and the five organs, namely the legs, hands, mouth, genitals and anus. Internal feelings such as the mind and work in ahamkara as a tandem with five external senses. Along with this, there are tanmatras that lead to five rough elements of the earth, fire, water, air and ether. Given these and others, there is a general tenet of the twenty-five principles in the Sankhya philosophy.

Here we must understand that Prakriti can not play any role, except for creating everything for pure pleasure of Purusha. After showing the latter all the joys in this universe, Prakriti also aims at free Purusha, releasing it completely in worldly affairs.

Thus, Prakriti, is a material in nature, coming into contact with itself - Purusha. Prakriti being derived from the Purusha. The nature of Purusha is such that there is no time, no number, no modes of material nature.
And the universe is created as if instantaneously, and everything else is already a derivative. In order to satisfy the original consciousness, through love and the paradoxical interconnection of these metaphysical substances.

What the Vedas have to say of this Purusha.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

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@fiby41
That archer story seems on the surface to say the literal opposite of the stoic archer story. I'm interested when well regarded pieces of ancient wisdom contradict each other. Seems like something important may be found there.

I have to admit, its hard to read about Hinduism. Every sentence is full of three or four vocabulary words that I've never seen before. It makes it a slog to try and understand the fundamental concepts. I feel like an art student trying to read a physics journal article.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by Mikeallison »

Great thread. I noticed a point where someone decided to classify him as more of a preacher than an intellectual, If this video is any indication, I think he might agree.

https://youtu.be/C3fy0RYpU8Q

Intellectualism is an impotent path, unless you try your ideas in the proving ground of reality. Most of the self proclaimed intellectuals I've met were unable to figure this out. The creations of their minds were not an attempt to understand reality, but rather a substitute for it. Some of them also show a fascinating inability to learn from their mistakes as well. Like Peterson talks about, we have professors trying their best to start the old creaky Marxist machine back up again in the form of gender/racial identity politics, because that worked out so well the last time.

"There Are Nowadays Professors of Philosophy, but not Philosophers ... "

I think Peterson attempts to apply his thinking to the way he conducts himself in real life, and trys to make that the example for his ideas. I think that is why he resonates so strongly with people, the truth he speaks is one he has found to be valid through personal experience. In other words you can't become a master carpenter simply by reading books on it can you? At some point you need to build something.

This is in stark contrast to most intellectuals today, who will pontificate on about stealing land from the natives, or the evils of capitalism, all the while living in a house built on a former native burial ground, and happily posting socialist manifestos on their IPhones. People are sick of the bankrupt morality and hypocrisy of these assholes, ranting and raving from their ivory towers about issues they know nothing about. This makes peterson a breath of fresh air, he does more than build castles in the sky, he lives his ideals. Hard to say something is invalid, or untrue, or impossible when it is staring you right in the face.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

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Re: Jordan Peterson

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ThisDinosaur wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:11 am
@fiby41
I have to admit, its hard to read about Hinduism. Every sentence is full of three or four vocabulary words that I've never seen before. It makes it a slog to try and understand the fundamental concepts. I feel like an art student trying to read a physics journal article.
This is something like how I feel trying to read Nietzsche's stuff. I tried to read Beyond Good and Evil a few times and I find myself wondering if there was a chapter somewhere I missed that would help me make sense of it.

I'm reading JBP's book right now. It's good. I had it out from the library but then had to buy a copy so that I could write notes in the margins. It sparks a lot of thoughts about connections to other stuff I've read.

That, to me, is the hallmark that distinguishes his work and speaks to its worth: it seems to be reflected in other research, ideas and theories from various academic disciplines.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

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Re: Jordan Peterson

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@BRUTE: Good article. I made a note to ask my DS29, who loved C.S. Lewis as a child, and is now a diehard Atheist, what he knows or thinks about the Peterson buzz. The book I kept thinking about while reading "12 Rules" was "Quo Vadis", but with Dusty Springfield version of "Son of a Preacher Man" as background track.
But if your goal is to minimize model uncertainty, you should be infinitely curious, spending your entire life having crazier and crazier experiences in a way that doesn’t match the behavior of real humans.
ENTP me be busted. -lol

The intelligence of the internet suggested that I might prefer "Behave: The Biology of Humans at Our Best and Worst" by Robert Sapolsky.
And thus those key terms that anchor this book are most difficult to define because of their profound context dependency. I will therefore group them in a way that reflects this. I won't frame the behavior to come as either pro-or antisocial-too cold-blooded for my expository tastes. Nor will they be labeled as "good" and "evil"-too hot-blooded and frothy. Instead, as our convenient shorthand for concepts that truly defy brevity, this book is about the biology of our best and worst behaviors.
Yum. This porridge be just right for 7Wannabe5 !

IOW, was "Wuthering Heights" a good book, worthy of a read? Yes, but I greatly prefer "Pride and Prejudice." or even "Bleak House" if you really want something on the theme of cleanliness is next to godliness.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by BRUTE »

brute likes this quote from the comment section, as it somewhat summarizes brute's view.
Jordan Peterson appears very profound and has convinced many people to take him seriously. Yet he has almost nothing of value to say.
brute doesn't have much against Peterson. he's just not very interesting.

then again, brute is not a 15 year old looking for answers.

the guy certainly doesn't deserve all the hate he's getting from the frothing-at-the-mouth crowd.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

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Wheaton levels...

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Re: Jordan Peterson

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I dunno ... I got a lot out of his book.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by daylen »

12 Rules for Life was mildly interesting to me. The anecdotes and clinical experience strengthened the book. I also watched his lecture series and so now his content is blending together for me, but I find it fascinating whenever he talks about the onset of mental disorders and how he treats them.

I am reading "Maps of Meaning" now and it is great, though it could be shorter. His perspective on how belief systems start, grow, and decline is highly relevant for the modern world.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by pukingRainbows »

This was good. The author seemed to be seriously trying to understand and criticize the ideas and brought up some interesting questions.

I do have a few nits to pick, however.

"Why do bad things happen to good people?" He seems to use this question as a test of JBP's thinking and then proceeds to quote possible responses and how they aren't concise or adequate. First off, this is a difficult question. To be able to answer it is no easy feat I think. But more than that, I think it's fairly clear how he would actually answer this and anyone familiar with his work would know. I think he would say something about suffering being inherent to human existence and that bad things happen to ALL people, good or bad.. And that the best response is to live a life that makes this inherent suffering acceptable. Or something like that.

Anyway, here is a link to something he wrote recently that offers a nice overview of his ideas. It's pretty steeped in the Bible so it may not resonate with many people, or worse, may be offensive if they are repelled by religion. For myself, I don't think I'm particularly religious. However, I would say that I have rediscovered the bible and its writings as having the appropriate depth when speaking about these types of issues.

https://jordanbpeterson.com/philosophy/ ... message-i/

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Re: Jordan Peterson

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