Jordan Peterson

Your favorite books and links
Campitor
Posts: 1064
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:49 am

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by Campitor »

What is it about the Jordan Peterson's lobster explanation that is problematic?

My perception of the JBP lobster topic is this:

A segment of society wants to eliminate hierarchies because it causes problems. They believe this is achievable because hierarchies are a social construct per their opinion. However JBP states that hierarchies exist within all complex organisms that exhibit social behavior and this behavior, of forming hierarchies, is such a basic subroutine that it even exists in lobsters which predate humans (a roundabout way of refuting the claim that humans have invented hierarches). Therefore eliminating hierarchies isn't possible. A better choice is to channel the negative energies that result from hierarchies ( bullying, externalities, etc.,) into positive avenues.

So what am I missing?

Alphaville
Posts: 2013
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by Alphaville »

Campitor wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:14 am

So what am I missing?
the basic fact that, unlike the laboratory lobsters of graduate students, human hierarchies can have many shapes and gradients and ways to organize themselves, and you don’t have to lose a claw and die because someone trashed your invertebrate theory of humanity.

biology is real, but jordan makes it dumb.

also this “segment of society” is a huge strawman/falsification of a premise. even leftists want & have hierarchies, they might just want them set up differently or on a different basis— but that’s besides the point.

if there’s someone kookoo enough who wants to * really *eliminate *all* hierarchies*, and jordan wants to fight them, then he’s trying to kill flies with cannonballs.

Campitor
Posts: 1064
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:49 am

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by Campitor »

@Alphaville

Okay - that makes sense.
if there’s someone kookoo enough who wants to * really *eliminate *all* hierarchies*, and jordan wants to fight them, then he’s trying to kill flies with cannonballs.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

nomadscientist
Posts: 285
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:54 am

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by nomadscientist »

Why read Peterson when one can simply read Filmer.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 6612
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

“Alphaville” wrote: sometimes when i watch him i think he’s a bit of a dry drunk. you know—the alcoholic who doesn’t drink but still operates under the old shame-based parameters? rigid, authoritarian, seething with anger, needs to always be right... wants too much order? maybe that’s what makes him prone to addiction.
Yeah, just like almost every other guy over approximately age 52 :lol:

Peterson is worse than most...

ETA:

Sorry. Cleaned it up. He’s just too much the drink I’ve puked up 3X already. Also, one’s female peers may hold different perspective than younger male fans.
Last edited by 7Wannabe5 on Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

Alphaville
Posts: 2013
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by Alphaville »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:35 am
:lol: :lol: :lol:

that was quite a skewering!

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 12858
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 73
Contact:

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by jacob »

If we could tone it down a bit ...
forum rules wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:58 pm
6) NO LYNCH MOBS! Because I've been on the receiving end of this more than once I'll allow no social media mob behavior on this forum; that is, negatively discussing anyone who is not present to defend themselves. In my experience such things don't help anyone. Basically, if you don't want to say something to somebody's face (presuming they're a heavyweight UFC fighter/not smaller than you), don't say it at all. Furthermore, if you don't want to say it for the public record without the benefit of anonymity.---Don't say it either. This is not for the purpose of being politically correct. It is because such opinionating tends to be misinformed and stupid.

Alphaville
Posts: 2013
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by Alphaville »

without attempting to flaunt local ordinances against lynch mobs, i believe that a psychotherapist’s personality is to a reasonable extent fair subject for discussion, whether it’s for personal treatment or when said therapist offers to psychoanalyze and treat society. i hope to explain this here without breaking community standards.

i say this from having been in therapy for many years, and having benefitted from it overall, but also having suffered bad experiences and abuse from therapists. it was not all good. some of them were wrong, some were poison.

whether through toxicity or incompetence, iatrogenia is real, even if it’s hard to observe in psychology, and it’s extremely important to choose the right therapist when seeking treatment. not all practitioners are created equal.

so i’ve learned to research and interview and interrogate therapists before committing to a course of treatment with them—everyone should. a bad fit can be outright deadly.

in the old times of psychoanalysis analysts presented themselves in a detached and impersonal manner of supreme authority, but modern psychotherapy requires self-awareness and a measure of self-disclosure from the therapist (that there is an evolution in hierarchies btw).

my most successful course of therapy ever was a long-drawn argument with my doctor where he shared many personal stories. (he had his own problems, btw, and was far from perfect, but he taught me self-acceptance in eccentricity, and for this i am eternally grateful).

so i know from experience (and having discussed with practitioners, read/reviewed/edited books, etc) that many psychotherapists in fact have histories of personal or family mental illness or dysfunction, just as many doctors choose that vocation from having suffered or witnessed serious illness in person or in the family. and that is part of them.

e.g, you read scott peck and he’ll start by telling you how he voluntarily committed himself to a psychiatric hospital at a young age. if you have a therapist, ask them what got them interested in their profession.

i do not say that as a disqualifier, in the manner of scientologists: on the contrary, these people know the territory they’re talking about, they’ve survived it, and i’ll get back to that in a moment. but it’s also helpful to know what are their personal bias & perspectives & potential blind spots & potential dangers. even more so in the case of a public figure offering a “cure” for society.

so, to get back to ideas and away from personal criticism, i’ll end this by saying that, in the context of some schools of therapy having worked with archetypal figures, like “the witch” “the wizard” “the knight” etc etc. —i think that “wise grandma” is way better than “angry dad”.

e.g. here’s marsha linehan, creator of dbt, an evidence-based treatment which has offered a cure to previously “beyond help” borderline personality disorders:
https://youtu.be/PCJ0R6vAUnw

btw she was diagnosed an treated for schizophrenia in her youth, although she believes it was actual borderline. for this too she holds my admiration. wanna talk about “heroes” without outdated sexist biases? there she is, beating back monsters for the good of humanity.

for me then, “skills” are far superior to “rules for life.”

having said that: some people need some rules sometimes. so i’ll try to do my best to abide by the board’s rules and i sincerely hope this hasn’t breached the terms.

respectfully,

-not a public figure

(for the record, and perspective, i have not been diagnosed as borderline, but i did learn about her by doing research about that condition)

Crusader
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:16 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by Crusader »

I think he definitely creates a net positive in the world, especially for people who need a direction in life, especially young men. But I can't take him too seriously, given his vague definition of "truth" (see https://samharris.org/speaking-of-truth ... -peterson/) and inability to answer a simple question such as "do you believe in God?" (just do a search on YT), not to mention his insistence on somehow tying everything to Biblical legends.

Out of everything he has done, I enjoyed the following interview with Camille Paglia the most:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-hIVnmUdXM

Alphaville
Posts: 2013
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by Alphaville »

haha i love paglia since the 90s, mostly as a bomb thrower, and even went to see her live once (it was a disappointment, she just kept saying how great she was, but “show don’t tell” applies here.). anyway she generally misunderstands science and what it stands for. she takes it almost as dogma to back up her claims. science however is not as fixed as her scientism posits. e.g. she’s not an endocrinologist and doesn’t understand gender—she just screams about knowing it all. but she’s amusing at some level. was more so in the 90s than nowadays, her schtick was new back then.

my favorite jordan video is his dialogue with hypersalivary philosopher joker slavoj žižek. mostly because žižek is way smarter, more erudite, and always fun & funny & enlightening (but oh, the spit in that mic!), whereas peterson... is so simplistic and tiresome, offering false certainties to his audience, kinda like a reheated ayn rand. but i guess some people do need that.

i’ll just have more žižek. have you ever watched his “the pervert’s guide to cinema”? great fun! check out the trailer here: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7xcr8q
i’ve only heard him speak etc but i really should read his books... now that sounds like a fun project.
Last edited by Alphaville on Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mister Imperceptible
Posts: 1466
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:18 pm

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

I watched that several years ago. Gigantic hypocrite (seems to be a recurring theme). Say idealism is an illusion and then end the documentary raising your fist to the sky. Meanwhile dude earns an income writing advertising copy....and so on and so on. What a terrific self-parody. I would rather blast flies with cannonballs.

Alphaville
Posts: 2013
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by Alphaville »

Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:31 pm
I watched that several years ago. Gigantic hypocrite (seems to be a recurring theme). Say idealism is an illusion and then end the documentary raising your fist to the sky. Meanwhile dude earns an income writing advertising copy....and so on and so on. What a terrific self-parody. I would rather blast flies with cannonballs.
you didn’t laugh?

Mister Imperceptible
Posts: 1466
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:18 pm

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

If Zizek is the “most dangerous philosopher in the West” then it is true what Peterson and Paglia say that the barbarians are at the gates while we are all held hostage by white girls with daddy issues. I remember talking with a security guard who also read Jared Diamond and we agreed its conclusion was one more clamoring for the Suicide of the West. Neither the security guard nor I are credentialed or would be considered a “reputable source,” but we both merely had what Nietzsche says is necessary.....a strong sense of smell.

Alphaville
Posts: 2013
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by Alphaville »

i don’t find him “dangerous” but hilarious. i do like comedians as philosophers though.

here is zizek’s “back to school” abercrombie catalog which i shall list with the same NSFW as i found it (there are exposed bodies in it so don’t open at the office)

NSFW: clothes catalog for rich kids with added žižek commentary: https://www.scribd.com/doc/36429575/A-F ... -to-School (NSFW)

haaahaaahaaa! it completely destroys the whole thing. i love it.

anyway- jared diamond? the guns germs & steel guy? what did he do?

Mister Imperceptible
Posts: 1466
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:18 pm

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

The idea that the West is entirely a byproduct of geographical circumstance is the antithesis of the Great Man Theory (which remains in a bear market), compounded with the notion that we are inferior to the cannibals in Papua New Guinea because we are not so capable when placed back in an environment as hunter gatherers without time to readapt. So according to Diamond, we do not deserve what we have, we owe it to historical accident, and because of our obvious inferiority we should give it up anyway. Ressentiment of the academic par excellence. I am sorry you did not get rich being a zoologist, bro, maybe civilization should not collapse just because you feel butthurt.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 6612
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I definitely don’t buy Diamond 100%, but as an experienced gardener, I feel like there is something to his theory. He also has a lovely writing voice.

I would also hope that there is some complex alternative beyond simple Great Man Theory. By analogy, it remains unclear whether climate, minerals, soil microbes, or large mammal grazing best predicts fertile accumulation.

However, I would note for the record that my perspective is White Girl with Mother Issues (my father was a dear), so MMV.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 6612
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Watching the Peterson/Zizek debate, I am struck anew with Peterson’s deep focus on man’s internal struggle with his malevolent nature. True word, this really isn’t so much a thing for a cheerful, mildly social female like me. Maybe that’s why I truly view rhizome-like structure as being as natural as hierarchical structure. I would have zero desire to go around murdering people on Free Murder Day. Mostly it’s just the bad breakdown of male hormone chemicals that make it necessary for us to have laws, prisons, etc. give or take for maybe 20% of females who are more violent and maybe 20% of males who are more gentle. My father was borderline gentle ( Fred MacMurray like) and my mother is borderline violent (Elizabeth Taylor like), so I think I have an overall balanced perspective, because given no brothers, I was surprised to discover how violent and hierarchical most men are once I started interacting with them.

Alphaville
Posts: 2013
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by Alphaville »

the great menzes was a romantic fad started by carlyle, no? sure, some people did something. was is greatness? was it luck? was it something else? who knows? the stories are fun (i enjoy rereading “dune”) but i don’t know.

i find the need to worship heroes... a bit desperate. not that i haven’t had mine. not that i still don’t have some actually. just the need to always be looking up to someone enshrined person is... maybe a bit pathetic? hahaha. seriously we need to look at the world with our own eyes, and that’s very hard already without the distraction of popular celebrities.

i like nietzsche *a lot* but he was a lot more interesting and nuanced than the popular conceptions of him. in spite of his categorical pronouncements, he was critical, not dogmatic. he made fun of himself too.
Image

his aphorisms are frequently taken out of context. so his work was malappropriated by his sister elizabeth to serve the nazis.

besides, i can think of many iatrogenic effects of slavish hero worship:

-proliferation of charlatanism. everyone wanting to/claiming to be a genius!
-stealing credit for other people’s work. so desperate for attention!
-proliferation of shame and addiction in the non-great. “boohoo i’m a failure”
-and yes, resentment
-sadomasochistic social structures
-discounting the great contributions of common people and anonymous inventions
-“heroes” eclipsing other interesting ideas that get less publicity
-conflating results with intention, ignoring unintended consequences
-social enabling of psychopaths believed to be heroes
-atrophied “comic book” morality (superheroes)
-dogmatism and gullibility
-pervasive fallacies of appeal to authority
-proliferation of narrative fallacies distracting us from real problems
-frequently fooled by randomness
-an attitude of ingratitude
-too much judgment
-egomania

and many others i can’t think of right now because i need breakfast but i could keep adding ad-nauseam [eta: i’ve been adding them with my coffee].

and i’d rather be lucky than good! and i like to be around lucky people—so pleasant to hang out with. “good people” (we all know some) can be *insufferable* :lol:

Alphaville
Posts: 2013
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by Alphaville »

speaking of luck, peterson’s approach reminds me of the driving instructor in mike leigh’s “happy go lucky” (such a great little movie)

here’s a bit from it

https://youtu.be/0a0YRNL6Qy4

en-ra-ha! :lol:

(highly recommended movie, but skip the official trailer—the trailer is crap)

Mister Imperceptible
Posts: 1466
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:18 pm

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

My concern is not hero worship, it is agency. The Übermensch and the Eternal Return are ideals and thought experiments. If everything is deterministic, there is no amor fati, no courage to do what is necessary. I do not think the fossil fuel bubble should be squandered so people can collect UBI and masturbate into a sock just because that is easier than getting ostracized by society for expressing a contrary opinion.

Post Reply