Jordan Peterson

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jennypenny
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by jennypenny » Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:38 pm

When I consume only beef and greens, I feel positively euphoric. Seriously. If I combined that with a polyphasic sleep cycle, I could get by on an hour or two of sleep a day. It's boring but it would be worth it if I could get over my qualms about eating so much meat.

I suffer from the same types of autoimmune issues as Peterson. When I gave up grains and gluten, my lifelong horrific psoriasis disappeared. It was so bad I used to get frequent flare-ups in my eyes. Now it's completely gone after 30 years of suffering.

I believe the results he and his daughter have had and I understand why they can't stop talking about it. If you've ever lived with constant pain or something as socially-crippling as full-blown psoriasis, you'd get why they think this way of eating feels like a visit from Jesus.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:51 am

jennypenny wrote:If you've ever lived with constant pain or something as socially-crippling as full-blown psoriasis, you'd get why they think this way of eating feels like a visit from Jesus.
Yes, my comments were unkind. I should probably refrain from participating in this thread, because I have spent too much time in relationships with NF men, inclusive of some very low-functioning phases. Easy to feel abandoned when your SO takes to bed for a month at a time, and easy to eventually feel abused when your SO irritably snaps with annoyance and signals contempt every time you are behaving in a cheerful manner that is not in alignment with the sad, dark reality of the world in which we live, nay SUFFER! And, easy to tell yourself "Never again" when he threatens to drive his motorcycle into a wall, because you have finally told him you are leaving. My ex was the Drama Prince, my "ex" was the Drama King, and everything about Peterson smells something like the Drama Duke to me. IOW, analogous to some initially intoxicating alcoholic beverage I have already puked up far too often.

jennypenny
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by jennypenny » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:35 am

I totally understand not liking Peterson (I'm married to an INTJ for a reason ;) ). And I didn't think your words were unkind. I was just explaining why they might be so over-the-top about their experience on the diet. I don't necessarily agree with the constant proselytizing about it -- you don't see me mention it on the forum unless the subject comes up -- but I understand why they feel compelled to ... medicine let them down and something as simple as eating differently cured them after dozens of wasted tests, thousands of wasted dollars, and countless prescriptions for drugs that usually did more harm than good. Still, it muddies his message and I don't think the diet is appropriate for everyone.

Campitor
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by Campitor » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:08 am

I could care less about Peterson's diet or his hyperboles. I care if his message is wrong based on his arguments for whatever message he is promulgating at the time. I would hope that if he was talking about the dangers of alcohol on fetal brain development, that his arguments wouldn't be dismissed because he eats meat only or because HE believes he didn't sleep for 25 days. It's easy to dismiss a message's veracity because we dislike the messenger.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:48 am

@jennypenny: Gotcha :)
Campitor wrote:It's easy to dismiss a message's veracity because we dislike the messenger.
True, that's why I mentioned my bias. OTOH, it's not the case that the majority of Peterson's arguments are in realms where easy, objective fact-checking is available. If the Emperor is commenting on how chilly it is, and I note that he appears to be naked, then I am simply observing his likely bias. It is my take that many of Peterson's arguments are not absent bias derived from his inherent temperament and life experience. For instance, based on my life experience being in relationships with irritable men, they are inclined to develop arguments in favor of smacking a kid to keep him in line. Peterson goes so far as to suggest that smacking kids to keep them in line when they are young will aid them in the development of internal self-discipline. So far as I know there has not been a single reputable study in the annals of science to confirm this "Grouchy Dad" hypothesis, so one is therefore forced to go to "Spare the rod, Spoil the child" as source of core wisdom unassailable by the alternate philosophy of the sort of masculinity-crippling post-modernists who work in Montessori nursery schools and believe that it is perhaps better to handle young children with patience, redirection, and a bit of compassion.

BRUTE
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by BRUTE » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:35 pm

jennypenny wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:35 am
I understand why they feel compelled to ... medicine let them down and something as simple as eating differently cured them after dozens of wasted tests, thousands of wasted dollars, and countless prescriptions for drugs that usually did more harm than good.
not to speak of 40 or 50 years (in Peterson's case) of very confidently being told this is just what it is, there is no cure, by the medical establishment.
wikipedia wrote:There is no cure for psoriasis; however, various treatments can help control the symptoms. These treatments include steroid creams, vitamin D3 cream, ultraviolet light and immune system suppressing medications, such as methotrexate.
doesn't even mention the fact that it can be completely brought under control with a simple diet change.

brute thinks this is a non-trivial factor in humans developing suspicions against authorities and institutions. the human body is somewhat complex, each one somewhat unique, and there are in fact some absurdly successful niche diet treatments for conditions that the medical establishment has given up on treating.

it is the ultimate "fake new" and "institutions aren't looking out for the little man". few things are as dear to the heart as a human's own body. this type of incompetence and active denial of working treatments by the medical establishment breeds inability to trust The Humans In Charge ever again.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:31 pm

BRUTE wrote:with a simple diet change.
Since when is a diet change simple? Some variety of Atkins/Paleo/Keto has been around for at least 60 year and most people are well aware of this option. I am sure I first gave it a go when I was around 15 or 16. Excruciating pain or serious medical risk put aside, I would have to be something well north of 20 lbs. overweight before I would choose to eat nothing but ribeye, dark chocolate, heavy cream and greens for the rest of my life. I'll take kind of chubby and full smorgasbord over the alternative. You can hand me the pamphlet, but I will just toss it in the recycling bin.

Also, I would note for the record, that beef was one of the googleplex of ingredients my ex-husband claimed caused him physiological distress. I literally had to keep a spreadsheet. He also claimed exemption from changing diapers, washing dishes and mowing the lawn due to his various afflictions. Yet, somehow, downing a 6 (or 12) pack of beer was never a problem :x

BRUTE
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by BRUTE » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:06 pm

what is 7Wannabe5 talking about? the topic is a lifelong skin condition described by one sufferer as:
jennypenny wrote:If you've ever lived with constant pain or something as socially-crippling as full-blown psoriasis, you'd get why they think this way of eating feels like a visit from Jesus.
other problems solved by eating tons of ribeye include AMPUTATION OF THE LIMBS AND BLINDNESS DUE TO DIABETES.

brute couldn't care less about 7Wannabe5's subcutaneous unsprung masses. the topic is that the medical establishment is withholding life saving or quality of life altering diet changes in order to protect their status and their egos.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:30 pm

Right. Sorry. I thought the topic was why does Jordan Peterson trigger me, so I was having a flashback to my hyper-critical super-picky eater ex who suffered from eczema, loved Nietzsche, and thought I was too chubby.

All anybody needs to know about the medical establishment is that Pharmaceutical Engineers exist and they like to get paid.

BRUTE
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by BRUTE » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:41 pm

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:30 pm
too chubby
no such thing

brute is a little triggered himself. he has the feeling that 7Wannabe5 thinks he wants to force all humans to live on ribeye only and suffer from terrible libertarian freedoms in a dystopian hellhole. nothing could be further from the truth. brute thinks all humans should be allowed to poison their bodies with empty carbs and achieve "well-marbled" status as well as ride subsidized socialist public transit and help little old human ladies cross the streets.

to his memory, brute has never advocated keto here outside of relatively extreme contexts/conditions like the aforementioned skin condition or diabetes. just because brute likes it doesn't mean humans like it.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:52 pm

@BRUTE:Hugs. A couple people on this forum said that people ought to be charged health insurance rates directly correlated to BMI, but that wasn't you. Sorry again. I am stressed out, and thinking about all my past flawed relationships, because I have to decide whether to break up with my BF or move to God's Armpit, TX with him. I will take it to my journal and away from this thread.

Campitor
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by Campitor » Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:39 pm

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:48 am
@jennypenny: Gotcha :)
So far as I know there has not been a single reputable study in the annals of science to confirm this "Grouchy Dad" hypothesis, so one is therefore forced to go to "Spare the rod, Spoil the child" as source of core wisdom unassailable by the alternate philosophy of the sort of masculinity-crippling post-modernists who work in Montessori nursery schools and believe that it is perhaps better to handle young children with patience, redirection, and a bit of compassion.
I don't think such a study would be ethical. You would need several control groups where some get lavish praise, others get "the rod" to varying degrees and frequency, some get neither praise/patience/or the rod, and some are told they will get the rod but not get it, while others are promised praise but don't get it either.

And human diversity being what it is, I'm sure some kids would thrive on "the rod", others would do better with praise/patience/compassion, some would prefer neither, and some would need a mix of 2 or 3 of the aforementioned. There is no size fits all when it comes to human diet or psychology.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by ThisDinosaur » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:57 pm

BRUTE wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:35 pm
. this type of incompetence and active denial of working treatments by the medical establishment breeds inability to trust The Humans In Charge ever again.
The only thing western physicians are taught about nutrition is what specific deficiencies look like, and that sugar causes type 2 diabetes. You're right to call it incompetence, not a conspiracy.
Campitor wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:39 pm
human diversity being what it is, I'm sure some kids would thrive on "the rod", others would do better with praise/patience/compassion, some would prefer neither, and some would need a mix of 2 or 3 of the aforementioned. There is no size fits all when it comes to human diet or psychology.
None of Jordan Peterson's parenting advice has been useful on my kids. n=2

Paula
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by Paula » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:28 pm

Campitor wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:30 am
He suffers from food allergies which express as autoimmune disorders: severe psoriasis and arthritis.
It is sad that he is a supporter of corporal punishment for children.

IlliniDave
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by IlliniDave » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:58 am

Could someone provide a link reference to JBP espousing (or bragging about) adults smacking children around? Curiosity piqued by the assertions of promoting and engaging in what is described here in a way clearly suggestive of child abuse, I went on a search of the resources I had at hand. In his written works I found only a "for instance" referring to a hypothetical mother who flicks a finger across the back of a kid's hand immediately after the kid strikes a sibling or similar; and an allowance that a swat on the backside might be required in an extreme case. He considers "timeout" a form of corporal punishment, and based on his talks and writing that seems to be the go-to technique he repeatedly discusses. His stated "doctrine" is to always use the minimal force necessary to halt unacceptable behavior. The idea of not allowing children to behave in ways that cause their parents not to like them seems to be about parents disciplining themselves (by being vigilant and consistent wrt their children's behavior) to avoid an accumulation of resentment that will too often be revisited on the child in inappropriate ways, than it is about beating kids for the sheer sport of it.

pukingRainbows
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by pukingRainbows » Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:46 pm

I seriously doubt you will find anything remotely close.
Most of the criticisms I have read about him have very little connection to what he's actually said or written. Instead, they tend to be based on ideas people attribute to him based on articles they've read about him.

Paula
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by Paula » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:52 pm

Here is a quote from his book.

"If your child is the kind of determined varmint who simply runs away, laughing, when placed on the steps or in his room, physical restraint might have to be added to the time out routine. A child can be held carefully but firmly by the upper arms, until he or she stops squirming and pays attention. If that fails, being turned over a parent’s knee might be required. For the child who is pushing the limits in a spectacularly inspired way, a swat across the backside can indicate requisite seriousness on the part of a responsible adult."

7Wannabe5
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:11 pm

IlliniDave wrote:Could someone provide a link reference to JBP espousing (or bragging about) adults smacking children around?
pukingRainbows wrote:I seriously doubt you will find anything remotely close.
Most of the criticisms I have read about him have very little connection to what he's actually said or written. Instead, they tend to be based on ideas people attribute to him based on articles they've read about him.
Okay, forced to type I guess.
When I worked in daycare centres, early in my career, the comparatively neglected children would come to me desperately, in their fumbling, half-formed manner, with no sense of proper distance and no attentive playfulness. They would flop, nearby-or directly on my lap, no matter what I was doing-driven inexorably by the powerful desire for adult attention, the necessary catalyst or further development. It was very difficult not to react with annoyance, even disgust, to such children and their too-prolonged infantilism- difficult not to literally push them aside- even thought I felt very badly for them, and understood their predicament well. I believe that response, harsh and terrible though it may be, was an almost universally-experienced internal warning signal indicating the comparative danger of establishing a relationship with a poorly socialized child.- "12 Rules"
See what he did here? He jumped right from his own very personal emotional reaction to some sort of fried baloney quality level assignment to human evolution. What is the age of children in daycare centers? Usually 4 and under. So, Peterson thinks that the attempt by a 4 year old to climb on his lap is a sign of pathological neglect leading to highly regressive social behavior :roll:
I remember taking my daughter to the playground once when she was about two. She was playing on the monkey bars, hanging in mid-air. A particularly provocative little monster of about the same age was standing above her on the same bar she was gripping. I watched him move towards her. Our eyes locked. He slowly and deliberately stepped on her hands, with increasing force, over and over, as he stared me down. He knew exactly what he was doing. Up yours, Daddy-O-that was his philosophy. He had already concluded that adults were contemptible, and that he could safely defy them. (Too bad, then, that he was destined to become one.) That was the hopeless future his parents had saddled him with. To his great and salutary shock, I picked him bodily off the playground structure, and threw him thirty feet down the field.

No, I didn't. I just took my daughter somewhere else. But it would have been better for him if I had. - "12 Rules"


No. I did not edit to remove next line where Peterson writes anything remotely resembling "Just kidding. I don't really think that would be good option"
For the child who is pushing the limits in a spectacularly inspired way, a swat across the backside can indicate requisite seriousness on the part of a responsible adult. There are some situations in which even that will not suffice, partly because some children are very determined, exploratory, and tough, or because the offending behavior is truly severe. -"12 Rules"
Gentlemen, I rest my case. I hope in the future you will bear in mind towards whom you are making trifling accusations of not reading original sources :ugeek:

Peanut
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by Peanut » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:31 pm

IlliniDave wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:58 am
He considers "timeout" a form of corporal punishment, and based on his talks and writing that seems to be the go-to technique he repeatedly discusses. His stated "doctrine" is to always use the minimal force necessary to halt unacceptable behavior. The idea of not allowing children to behave in ways that cause their parents not to like them seems to be about parents disciplining themselves (by being vigilant and consistent wrt their children's behavior) to avoid an accumulation of resentment that will too often be revisited on the child in inappropriate ways, than it is about beating kids for the sheer sport of it.
Yes, so I think this is an accurate rundown and illustrates the following: timeout IS a form of corporal punishment and for this reason along with others it is no longer recommended by more and more experts on child-rearing. I appreciate his warning about tolerating assholery from your kids to their own detriment, but I think he's pretty out of touch with a few aspects of child-rearing theory. His account on Youtube somewhere of force-feeding a nine-month old baby babyfood presumably for his own good is crazy to me.

On the general topic, I would add I was most surprised by his assertions that proper socialization by age four must be completed or the child will never catch up to his/her peers. He claimed there was data backing that up, I believe. It made me think of this forum actually, with its emphasis on introversion. It's not quite the same thing, obviously, but it made me wonder what readers of his who consider themselves less than socially adept think of that theory.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by ThisDinosaur » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:28 pm

@Peanut
What "aspects of child rearing theory" ?

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