Jordan Peterson

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I first read about this culture in "Beyond Belief: Islamic Excursions Among the Converted People" by V.S. Naipaul.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/indonesia ... al-society

It's interesting because the culture was well established in the practice of matrilineal inheritance of property before conversion to Islam, a religion formed in the patriarchal lineage of Abraham. When polygyny, as permitted by Islam, is practiced, the man must move between the properties that are owned by his wives. The lesser inheritance for females in Islam was actually a huge improvement on the inheritance prospects or right to own property or not to be considered as property of Jewish or Christian females at the time of the writing of the Koran. It only seems horribly backward now in comparison to post-suffragette Western practice of the less than the last 150 years.

Native American culture, like most human cultures that only practice nominal slash-burn agriculture, did not hold concept of private property, just personal property.

Modern technology/affluence allows females the ability to live independently and engage in lucrative creative work to support themselves. Religious practice follows economic reality, although there is always some loop of feedback. Disney movies are based on the mythologies/tales of patriarchal hierarchy agricultural cultures which have hugely dominated human reality for the last several thousand years until only very recently. That does not mean that they represent the only "natural" possibility for humans. For instance, it is possible for humans to thrive in a culture in which there is no longer a notion of what it means to be a "Princess." (Overheard in 1st grade classroom conversation between 3 little girls. "I hate Princesses." "I hate Princesses too!" "Well, at least you can pick the personality of Princess you want." "I guess.")

pukingRainbows
Posts: 131
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:56 pm

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by pukingRainbows »

@7Wannabe5 - I think the more interesting question for me is why is that princess concept so appealing to most young girls in the first place? And why did those stories and cultures dominate rather than the other possibilities?

ThisDinosaur
Posts: 997
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:31 am

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by ThisDinosaur »

pukingRainbows wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:45 pm
The book, "A history of Religious Ideas" by Mircea Eliade might be interesting for you as it runs through the world's religions and their ideas.
Good find! I'm reading it on archive.org.
In fact, after I started reading it, I watched Peterson's 4th bible lecture, and he specifically references this book. I guess my concern is that, as compelling as his ideas are, I want to be careful JP is not reading more into the bible than is actually there. That's why I am interested in cross-referencing other long-surviving religious texts for the same concepts.
fiby41 wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:12 am
Because of the Matthew Principle or the Shree Suktam. Jordan Peterson mentions the former frequently in his videos. They are to the effect respectively:

Adressing Lakshmi, the Goddess of Wealth:

Those who have some wealth [are able to] beget more with your grace. So enrich me with some [of your grace.]

सोमं धनस्य सोमिनोमह्यं ददातुसोमिनः ॥

~Shree Suktam in the Rig Veda.
@fiby41 or anyone else familiar with Hinduism. Do you see anything else in Peterson's videos that reminds you of Hinduism? Specifically, speaking order into existence by truthfully describing the world (Brahman)? I just found out that the Upanishads may have influenced Plato, or at least preempted his ideas by 2-3 hundred years.

You can invent a religion de novo if you want (i.e., scientology), but if you expect it to last a thousand years or more, it better be connected to existing tried-and-true ones. [example; Indian Deva, Christian Deus Pater (God the Father), Greek Zeus pater, Roman Jupiter are all conserved from a common indo European religion from pre-literate asia.]




--

User avatar
fiby41
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:09 am
Location: India
Contact:

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by fiby41 »

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:20 am
Do you see anything else in Peterson's videos that reminds you of Hinduism?
1. When listening to Eye of Horus (Egypt), eye of providence the mind harks back to the Third eye of Shiva

2. Chaos and order, logos reminds me of Ṛta (Rita) in the Vedas and Dharma.

3. The hierarchy of authority he describes is eerily similar to the Maha Meru (Shree Yantra in 3D)

4 Atlas taking up the world on his shoulders.
Varaha avatar of Lord Vishnu taking up the earth on his tusks.

5. Prometheus stealing fire from the gods and giving it to the humans.
Athavan first brought down Agni from heaven to start yagna. Atharva Veda is named in his honour.

6. Slaying the dragon and rescuing the princess.
It reminded me of Ramayana.


7. Beauty and the beast.
Nara-Simha avatar of Lord Vishnu.

8. Cain and Abel reminds me of the Pandava-s and Kaurava-s.
ThisDinosaur wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:20 am
example
From the link posted in Agni's journal:

The word agni is Sanskrit for "fire" (noun), cognate with Latin ignis (the root of English ignite),
Russian огонь (ogon),
Polish "ogień,"
Lithuanian - ugnis - all with the meaning 'fire'.
Proto-Indo-European root (reconstructed word) h₁égni
Agni has three forms: fire, lightning and the sun.

The Sanskrit devá- cognate with
Lithuanian Dievas
(Latvian Dievs,
Prussian Deiwas),
Germanic Tiwaz (seen in English "Tuesday") and
Latin deus "god" and divus "divine", from which the English words "divine", "deity",
French "dieu",
Portuguese "deus",
Spanish "dios" and
Italian "dio", also "Zeys/Ζεύς" - "Dias/Δίας",
Greek father of the gods, are derived.
Proto-Indo-European (PIE) reconstructed word *deiwos

Sanskrit Pitar -
Middle English fader,
Old English fæder,
Proto-Germanic *fadēr
(cf. East Frisian foar,
Dutch vader,
German Vater),
Proto-Indo-European reconstructed root *ph₂tḗr
ThisDinosaur wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:20 am
pukingRainbows wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:45 pm
The book, "A history of Religious Ideas" by Mircea Eliade might be interesting for you as it runs through the world's religions and their ideas.
Good find! I'm reading it on archive.org.
Thanks for the link.
Last edited by fiby41 on Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

pukingRainbows wrote: I think the more interesting question for me is why is that princess concept so appealing to most young girls in the first place? And why did those stories and cultures dominate rather than the other possibilities?
https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 017-0773-8
Through their 11 official princesses, Disney circulates powerful and consistent messages regarding gender norms and roles. Inspired by the princesses’ ubiquity in the lives of young girls, we examined how preschool girls interpreted gender-role stereotypes in Disney Princess media both through their pretend play behaviors and their discussions of the princesses. Participants included 31 3- to 5-year-old girls who represented an array of racial/ethnic and socioeconomic backgrounds and who came from four classes at two preschools in rural New England. Data collected from a variety of methods, including pretend play observations, semi-structured interviews, and parent questionnaires revealed participants’ stereotypical beliefs about the princesses and their adherence to gendered behaviors when enacting the princesses. Thematic analyses identified four themes that defined the participants’ princess play: beauty, focus on clothing and accessories, princess body movements, and exclusion of boys. The implications of gendered princess play are discussed in relation to the social cognitive theory of gender development and differentiation. Based on the outcomes of our study, parents and educators might reconsider the type and amount of media they provide their children, acknowledging the effects of these images on their children’s behaviors and understandings of gender.
The Disney Princess meme is so prevalent in the world-wide mindset of young children going through strong gender identification phase of development, that I have frequently had the experience that a 5 year old girl recently immigrated from Yemen or Bangladesh or Northern Africa, who is not yet fluent in English, will point to my braid and say "Elsa." It is so overwhelmingly popular, I was surprised to overhear the conversation I outlined in my post above, in which 6 and 7 year old girls were rejecting the meme. Important note might be that these Princess-meme-rejecting-or-transcending girls were from affluent, very well-educated background. They attended a school which provided them with Chinese language lessons, hiking trails, robotics training and after-school yoga sessions. Therefore, it is likely that they were to a good extent taught to reject the meme by their parents for the same reason their parents would find "Honey Boo Boo" repugnant. However, it was not the case that these girls were being trained towards total gender neutrality. In fact, the child who stated that she hated Princesses wore her hair in something closely resembling an Elsa braid, and she likely wore pink tennis shoes with her functional-cute overalls. So, might be more indicative of an uber-aspirational class rejection of lower-class version of meme, rather than outright rejection. IOW, faux-Princess wears sparkly pink dress vs. true Princess is fluent in at least two languages.

The Princess is a character who incorporates both Beauty and Status, so any attributes which are indicative of Status and accepted within a given culture as being fairly gender-neutral will be assigned to Princess role within that particular culture. Are there attributes which our species tend towards universally regarding as indicative of Beauty or Status? Of course. Are we intelligent enough to write narratives that recognize this reality and freely choose to make use of them to our benefit, or do we stick to the notion of biology is destiny even when it is clearly apparent that biology has granted us with brain function complex enough to argue that on this level biology need not be destiny.

User avatar
fiby41
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:09 am
Location: India
Contact:

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by fiby41 »

9. Abraham & Sara sound very similar to Brahma & Saraswati who're also consorts of each other.

I've started JBP's video on Abraham but not finished it, so so far no similarities except the name.

Abraham and Brahmaa are anagrams. The last vowel is a long a anyway.

ThisDinosaur
Posts: 997
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:31 am

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by ThisDinosaur »

@fiby41
Awesome. Thanks for that.
I'll add to your list; I read that the four Vedas were supposedly spoken into existence by each of Brahma's four mouths. Sounds suspiciously like the Logos to me.

Now the question is, if there is a conserved ancestral religion, does that support or negate JBP's hypothesis?
On the one hand, these subtle ideas have been preserved. This implies they are Meaningful to Humanity.
On the other hand, the common descent rules out any out-of-sample verification.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:05 am
will point to my braid and say "Elsa." It is so overwhelmingly popular, I was surprised to overhear the conversation I outlined in my post above, in which 6 and 7 year old girls were rejecting the meme.
Very important point. In one of the JBP bible lectures, he specifically talks about how he hates "Frozen." In contrast to "Sleeping Beauty," which fits a bunch of his archetypes. This seems like a critical flaw in his reasoning. Because both of those movies were commercially successful and emulated by young girls. His female archetype is not very fleshed out. A mother holding an infant, while stepping on a snake (protecting from predation) is a pretty strong image. But little girls playing with dolls don't pretend to fight dragons at the same time. Its usually either one or the other. The only example of a Heroic Mother I can think of in movies is Sarah Connor from Terminator. But in the first movie, her Savior child isn't even conceived yet, and in the second he's a heroic sub adult.

User avatar
fiby41
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:09 am
Location: India
Contact:

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by fiby41 »

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:38 am
The only example of a Heroic Mother I can think of in movies is Sarah Connor from Terminator.
Another example would be Lilly Potter in the HP series. She gave her life to deflect the spell Voldemort cast on Harry.
ThisDinosaur wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:38 am

A mother holding an infant, while stepping on a snake (protecting from predation) is a pretty strong image.
Iconography with similar elements: infant, (protecting) snake, parent.

Image

New-born Krishna being taken to safety by his father
accross the Yamuna river after being born in prison.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

ThisDinosaur wrote:Very important point. In one of the JBP bible lectures, he specifically talks about how he hates "Frozen." In contrast to "Sleeping Beauty," which fits a bunch of his archetypes. This seems like a critical flaw in his reasoning. Because both of those movies were commercially successful and emulated by young girls. His female archetype is not very fleshed out. A mother holding an infant, while stepping on a snake (protecting from predation) is a pretty strong image. But little girls playing with dolls don't pretend to fight dragons at the same time. Its usually either one or the other. The only example of a Heroic Mother I can think of in movies is Sarah Connor from Terminator. But in the first movie, her Savior child isn't even conceived yet, and in the second he's a heroic sub adult.
How about Lagertha of Viking TV myth? I liked the part where after her husband took a second wife she set up her own Earldom :lol:

Actually, I agree with much of what Peterson conveys. I think most people find their purpose as some variation of helping "your baby" to live by making a decision about what else will be caused to die. However, I would say that the essential struggle is between "complexity and disorder" rather than "order and chaos." Therefore, you should think twice before you rashly decide to kill a being as complex as a snake in order to save "your baby." A lot of harm is done in the world when people act out of misplaced anxiety (unrealized baby.) Maybe post-modernism erred on the side of moral relativism, but that doesn't mean that it isn't stupid to acknowledge that a snake is also a living creature that can be integrated and understood. Life would be easier if clear-cut, but the embodiment of the "clear-cut" is the act of literally reaching out with tool and killing the chaotic life in front of you in order to expand human perspective. Post-modernism is dead. Post-reductionism rules, and I declare the Female Archetype to be a mother with a bright-eyed toddler on her hip, squatting down to show him a snake in the grass, and teach him what she knows of a snake and its qualities.

ThisDinosaur
Posts: 997
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:31 am

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by ThisDinosaur »

@fiby41
I haven't read Harry Potter. Sorry. But Lilly (his mother?) is not the main character. I feel like JBP's Jungian Archetype Theory would predict that women would be attracted to a story about rescuing their infants from monsters. Where the mother is clearly the main character and not a supporting one. I don't see a lot of that. Babies don't ever seem to be the McGuffin (except in Willow, and even then the main character is a man...)

@7Wannabe5
No disrespect to snakes, but they were a big source of stress for our ancestors. Predators of tree-dwelling primates include Birds of Prey from the air, snakes from the ground, tree-climbing big cats, and water dwelling crocodiles. Put those all together and you get a Dragon. A flying, slithering, submerged/invisible, fire-breathing, cat-bird-snake-odile is the thing you wanna avoid.

You can condition a human or a chimp to be phobic of a snake (or picture of a snake) easier than other objects. Even if they've never seen a snake. The implication is that "snake detection circuitry" is innate in primates. And anyone who hunts and kills one of these things is a brave hero.

Apep, the Egyptian serpent of chaos and the underworld, who embodies the entire horizon, is slain by the sun god, Ra.

Psalms 74:14 "Thou didst crush the heads of leviathan, Thou gavest him to be food to the folk inhabiting the wilderness."

Isaiah 27:1"In that day the LORD with His sore and great and strong sword will punish leviathan the slant serpent, and leviathan the tortuous serpent; and He will slay the dragon that is in the sea."

George the original one
Posts: 5404
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
Location: Wettest corner of Orygun

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by George the original one »

We don't have poisonous snakes here in the temperate rain forest on the west coast of north america. Not a part of the native mythology. Now the thunder & fire gods on the mountains... yeah, we got those!

User avatar
fiby41
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:09 am
Location: India
Contact:

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by fiby41 »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:58 am
However, I would say that the essential struggle is between "complexity and disorder" rather than "order and chaos." Therefore, you should think twice before you rashly decide to kill a being as complex as a snake in order to save "your baby." A lot of harm is done in the world when people act out of misplaced anxiety (unrealized baby.)
A farmer couple had a new born son. DW wanted to have a pet animal to protect the child which would also be a companion to the child while they'd be away all day on the fields. They debated and decided upon a mongoose. So they brought a mongoose and started rearing it. The couple thought that the mongoose would take care of the child while they were away. So they used to leave the mongoose and the child at home and go out to sow and till the land.

A couple of months later, on one such day DW returned earlier and on returning home found that the mouth of the mongoose was stained with blood . She immediately inferred that the mongoose had killed her child. In anger she threw whatever she was carrying on the mongoose and the mongoose was hurt badly.
She then rushed inside to see what happened to the child. She was surprised to find a dead snake lying in the room. She could infer that that the mongoose had saved the child's life by killing the snake. Realising the mistake she went out of the room only to find the mongoose dead on the floor. She cried out load at her hasty action.

~ Pancha-tantra (lit. Five principles, collection of 108 short, sometimes bedtime, moral stories for kids)
Female Archetype to be a mother with a bright-eyed toddler on her hip, squatting down to show him a snake in the grass, and teach him what she knows of a snake and its qualities.
Due to his pranks with his friends, [foster] mother Yashoda grounds Krishna from playing in the front yard. So he goes to the back yard, facing the forest, to play alone. A king cobra, was observing Krishna's game opening his hood.
Krishna approaches the cobra and starts playing with it. Yashoda immediately pulles off Krishna as soon as the whole ordeal comes to her notice.
She scolds him.

Image

Krishna being afraid of his mother's anger, apologizes to her. He was standing there, afraid of his mother, but not afraid of the cobra. I can't seem to find the final pic which gives some screentime to the cobra also.

JennyH
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:12 pm

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by JennyH »

For the most part JP is great.

He does have a bias towards some opinions like Christianity, however, who of us doesn't?
I do not refer to him in every questions about life I have like many millenials do. But listening to him once in a while defintely broadens my horizon.

I especially like the way he breaks down allegations and totalitarian opinions. Watching the Channel 4 Interview with Cathy Newman is a must.

Also he is one of the only intellectuals in the public eye who takes a strong stand against weird and exagerated leftist movements and opinions (i.e. Trudeau's "people kind"). Also most women disagree with a totalitarian feminism but we are too afraid to stand our ground publicly...

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

What would J.P. make of this ?:

Image

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/291 ... ngel-heart
CHRISTMAS IS A TIME OF MIRACLES...

It's been six months since Sir Rousel was killed in battle, leaving behind his betrothed, the heartsick Lady Branwyn, and his grieving shieldmate, Sir Owain, who was also his secret bedmate. For Branwyn and Owain, Christmas in Camelot means painful memories, shattered dreams, and a fateful decision at Chancery Leap.

Damian is a stag shifter, a forest prince who's just discovered he's the last of his kind. With a life of unimagined loneliness ahead of him, one of the fae of Avalon grants him a precious gift: If he can find a true mate before Twelfth Night, he can remain a man forever. Otherwise, he'll live as a stag--blessed without memories or sorrow, but also cursed without purpose or hope.

For the three of them to find salvation, it will take the ultimate in courage, forgiveness and trust. And to find it together? That will take a Christmas miracle.

User avatar
jennypenny
Posts: 6851
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by jennypenny »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:41 am
What would J.P. make of this ?:
Me? I love a good Christmas miracle. Oh, you probably meant Peterson. ;)

Totally OT ... I think 'stag shifter' is my favorite term for a character out of all of the pseudo-beastiality romance characters.


If anyone missed it, Peterson was on Art of Manliness's podcast. He's certainly making the most of his 15 minutes. https://www.artofmanliness.com/2018/02/ ... interview/

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@jennypenny:

lol- I'm an old-fashioned girl, so the Werewolf would still be my favorite. I would note that it only took me about 2 minutes of searching to come up with the above example of the huge human capacity for mixing the conventional with the unconventional. Of course, there are some things that human beings don't come to naturally; digestion of steel ingots, snorting water for oxygen, bathing in tar pits.
ThisDinosaur wrote:No disrespect to snakes, but they were a big source of stress for our ancestors. Predators of tree-dwelling primates include Birds of Prey from the air, snakes from the ground, tree-climbing big cats, and water dwelling crocodiles. Put those all together and you get a Dragon. A flying, slithering, submerged/invisible, fire-breathing, cat-bird-snake-odile is the thing you wanna avoid.
True, but our species also still retains features of pre-mammalian life-forms from which we evolved. More than one reason Mama might say to avoid anything that resembles a snake if you want to avoid "painful toil."

OTOH, I think the fact that birds arrived at similar strategy for "care for young" and, therefore, "pair-bonding romance", through completely different pathway is rather telling.

pukingRainbows
Posts: 131
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:56 pm

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by pukingRainbows »

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:38 am
In one of the JBP bible lectures, he specifically talks about how he hates "Frozen." In contrast to "Sleeping Beauty," which fits a bunch of his archetypes. This seems like a critical flaw in his reasoning. Because both of those movies were commercially successful and emulated by young girls. His female archetype is not very fleshed out. A mother holding an infant, while stepping on a snake (protecting from predation) is a pretty strong image. But little girls playing with dolls don't pretend to fight dragons at the same time. Its usually either one or the other. The only example of a Heroic Mother I can think of in movies is Sarah Connor from Terminator. But in the first movie, her Savior child isn't even conceived yet, and in the second he's a heroic sub adult.
I recall that he disliked Frozen because the ideas and lessons were too obviously contrived to really function on an archetypal level. The difference being that an archetypal story tends to resonate with people over a long period of time, so the test would be to see how popular Frozen is in 50 years. Or Angel Heart, for that matter.

In regards to the feminine archetype, I remember him talking about Mary as embodying the archetype. It was essentially the sacrifice of motherhood where you take the thing you most care about and bring it into the world to suffer and ultimately die. And the archetypal bad mother being the witch in Hansel and Gretel, who spoils the children with candy and then eventually tries to devour them. I agree it's not particularly well fleshed out.

That being said, I don't think the masculine archetype is specifically for men. The same way that women can also have masculine characteristics, they could also embody the archetypal hero. I don't quite have a handle on this though but I think it relates to the feminine as chaos and the male as the consciousness which attempts to create order from it. (I'm reading the Origins and History of Consciousness by Erich Neumann and he talks about this idea at length.)

User avatar
fiby41
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:09 am
Location: India
Contact:

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by fiby41 »

jennypenny wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:40 pm
Totally OT ... I think 'stag shifter' is my favorite term for a character out of all of the pseudo-beastiality romance characters.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:04 pm
lol- I'm an old-fashioned girl, so the Werewolf would still be my favorite.
In a video he lists top fantasies of women about men:

Vampire, werewolf, surgeon, billionaire, pirate.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

pukingRainbows wrote:I recall that he disliked Frozen because the ideas and lessons were too obviously contrived to really function on an archetypal level. The difference being that an archetypal story tends to resonate with people over a long period of time, so the test would be to see how popular Frozen is in 50 years. Or Angel Heart, for that matter.
I think what is being missed in this analysis is the huge overlap between religious history and the history of the technologies of literacy, and the key role frugality or greed played in the success of Walt Disney.

For instance, in the Qur'an, Jews and Christians and Zoroastrians are referred to as "the people of the book" and the very first word and directive is "Read!" This represents a critical landmark of oral tradition passing over to print. However, the first translations of the Qur'an into English were published less than 150 years ago. There is huge amount of contingency involved in what is read because it is what is available to be read.

Walt Disney was a cheapskate capitalist, so he chose to make use of tales that were free of copyright for his movies, and then he brought forward a case in court that greatly extended the copyright granted to his own intellectual property. There are many versions of any known copyright-free tale published for children. For instance, I worked with one very good 1st grade teacher who read 3 different version of "The Gingerbread Boy" to her class, so they could learn the concept of "compare and contrast." Another reason why Disney movies resonate with young children is due to the manner in which music is integrated with simple lyrics, as in the more poetic style of any literature on the cusp of oral and written tradition. Most 4 year old children are not yet fluent readers, but they can recite reams of chanted rhyme or lyrics. I would give 100 to 1 odds that there will be little girls singing along to "Let It Go" with their grandmothers 50 years from now. The theme of this song seems to be about becoming empowered in "juvenile masculine" quadrant, overcoming anxious attachment to rules set by others, and seeking freedom in the possibilities inherent in the open plain of the future. The interesting thing about this movie is that it is obvious that Disney Inc. did not predict that the Elsa character would be hugely more popular with young girls than the Anna character.

In Roman society, the status of free male was associated with the dominant or penetrative role in sexuality, but the choice of partners was binary. Humans are very "embodied" in their use of language, so the concept of freedom is strongly associated with literal freedom to move your body. For obvious instance relevant to this forum, if you are not free to move your body away from your place of employment between the hours of 9-5, you might refer to your situation as being a "cubicle-slave." When you save up enough money to no longer have to be enslaved to your cubicle, that money is referred to as "fuck you" money, because this association between freedom and holding the penetrative role in sexuality is so strongly held by humans. Some of the earliest converts to Christianity were affluent Roman housewives. Religious movements are not unlike political movements in that they frequently first find support among the disenfranchised, but then adopt a power structure similar to the one against which they originally rallied or preached. The sexual structure of "Angel Heart" is likely based on the still very popular Arthurian legend which features the romance between a Knight who is submissive to a Queen, both characters being submissive to the King. The only difference being that the platonic relationships are sexualized for the modern audience. I would bet dollars to doughnuts that there was a bawdy 18th century play written on similar theme. Unfortunately, the technology of the printing press experienced greatest improvement during a very Puritanical era of human existence, so most attics contain dreary, foxed copies of 19th century collections of sermons rather than any of the much more delightfully entertaining works of the previous century.
That being said, I don't think the masculine archetype is specifically for men. The same way that women can also have masculine characteristics, they could also embody the archetypal hero. I don't quite have a handle on this though but I think it relates to the feminine as chaos and the male as the consciousness which attempts to create order from it. (I'm reading the Origins and History of Consciousness by Erich Neumann and he talks about this idea at length.)
Right. I believe that sexual dichotomy theory is very useful in general, but kind of disturbing if pressed forward as rigid morality. I think gender trumps culture, but personality trumps gender, and experience can eventually trump all. Also, intelligent human beings are perfectly capable of self-aware transcendence toward complexity that incorporates gender dichotomy theory. For instance, I would suggest that there is nothing more like creating order out of chaos than the application of mathematics, but I have frequently been in the company of dominant men who have made use of my masculine skill-set which allows me to almost instantly calculate the tip on the dinner he is buying, or the amount of plywood needed for the shed he is building. -lol.

In conclusion, I would strongly suggest that Jordan Peterson is not an Intellectual, but rather a talented Preacher, preaching on a frequently revived theme, with just a bit of a twist added to appeal to Millennial audience not previously exposed. Yawn.

daylen
Posts: 2528
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by daylen »

@7w5

I would say Jordan Peterson is both a preacher and an intellectual. This is just semantics, but he is clearly intelligent and scientifically minded.

Locked