Jordan Peterson

[ThisDinosaur]

He's obsessed with authoritarian dictatorships because they show how societies can fly off the rails into massive suffering and disaster. All starting with groups of well- meaning, idealistic, and completely normal people. You'll find lots of instances of him talking about how anyone could be a Nazi, it's not just something that happens to the Evil Other. The evil isn't Out There, it's in yourself.

So, his answer is to recognize your own capacity for evil, develope yourself as an Individual, and dont be a slave to a group identity or ideology. Ideologies have a tendency to become too rigid to adapt to new information, ie their unintended consequences.

[daylen]

@Jacob
Here is a video on conscientiousness (J) where he talks about the relationship between disgust sensitivity and Hilter. Basically, the far right is susceptible to acting aggressive against what they percieve as their out-group. This is because they are high in orderliness and feel strong disgust for what is percieved as different and potentially dangerous.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBWyBdUYPgk&t=3745s

I think Jenny touched on an important point.

Stories are fundamental to our experience. Our decisions are often influenced by episodic memory, dreams, memes, anecdotes, and other forms of story (linear sequence of events is as good a definition as any). Though, clearly people can explain things with arguments based on an axiomatic framework that is consistent and partially complete, so stories are not strictly required. I think that it is hard to fully grasp the impact that stories have had on the evolution of our society, and I also believe that thinking in story/symbolism is prior to thinking in arguments derived from axioms (third order -> fourth order, traditionalism -> modernism). So the question is how societies should balance traditionalism, modernism, and post-modernism (reconstructive version).. Or am I just confused?

I think that Jordan is doing a great job at promoting third order consciousness in males that are average in openness and agreeableness. Though, this is a fourth order world after all.

A thread that aggregates resources on the fifth order of consciousness would be particularly interesting at this point in time.. I might make it.. like Jacob, I recently became curious about "In Over Our Heads". Relations before form, beliefs are objects, etc.

[BRUTE]

society now views it suspect if an adult man wants to be around young children and most men are aware of this and avoid it further removing male role models from boys lives.

this is actually at an insane level now. even compared to when brute first remembers noticing this in his childhood, it's gotten way, way worse.

brute doesn't care much for human children, and rarely sees them. maybe a few times per week he sees a human child.

is that weird?

is it weird that 50% of all humans are banned from interacting with humans <21 years old, sometimes culturally, other times even by law?

is it weird when this leads to unintended consequences?

brute doesn't really give a shit, but hey, brute is a nihilist and would vote for the meteor if the meteor joined the libertarian party.

If you haven't seen his first discussion with Sam Harris I think the communication problems between the two of them are emblematic of the kind of disconnect we have with his form of messaging.

that's one of the best examples of 2 humans not talking to each other for 2 hours brute has ever seen. the only other candidate is Sam Harris' "discussion" about consciousness/free will with Dan Dennett. hm. maybe there's a pattern here.

[IlliniDave]

Another thing I've heard Peterson use in explaining the rise of further-to-the-right movements is that it's a natural (doesn't mean good or just) reaction to the growing ascendance of so-called identity politics. If one side (in this case the further left) identifies an enemy/oppressor described by an n-tuple (race, religion, gender, orientation, whatever, etc) and seeks to pit a coalition of not that n-tuple against it in oppressor versus oppressed conflict, some fraction of the n-tuple will say, "Okay, fine, I'll play your identity game too, and I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure my group wins and yours loses." He always adds something like, "...and that's not good either." All of that is discussed in the context that he believes identity politics is the antithesis of western democratic ideals where in principle importance is placed on the individual rather than any group identity.

[IlliniDave]

E.g.
"Bob is a good dog (so he would never run into the street)" says the person whose mind thinks in terms of narratives.

I think "Bob has run into the street before (fact)" (!B => !A) happens automagically (the benefit of a strong Ni) so I say "Bob should be kept on a tight leash when near streets."

I don't see any necessary dichotomy between logic and narratives. If the "person who thinks in terms of narratives" said something like: "I've seen dead dogs on the side of the road, it is bad. I have a dog and I don't want it to get run over." She has a goal. She then says, "People say it's safer to keep my dog on a leash when he's outside in an unfenced space." That's both an appeal to narrative and to reason. She leashes the dog and they have a nice, safe walk around the block (conclusion of a micro-story). Then she goes home and when her son asks: "Why is Bob on a leash?" she can relate the story and perpetuate the narrative (granted this is not among the grand narratives of the essence of human existence).

[prognastat]

this is actually at an insane level now. even compared to when brute first remembers noticing this in his childhood, it's gotten way, way worse.

brute doesn't care much for human children, and rarely sees them. maybe a few times per week he sees a human child.

is that weird?

is it weird that 50% of all humans are banned from interacting with humans <21 years old, sometimes culturally, other times even by law?

is it weird when this leads to unintended consequences?

It's to the point where is a father is at the playground with his son he actually has to constantly be vigilant to make sure he doesn't interact in a way that may be suspicious and get the cops called on him for potentially being a predator. When male teachers are suspicious in society and a father playing with their child in public can be suspicious it's no wonder that kids have less and less time with fathers/father figures.

If you haven't seen his first discussion with Sam Harris I think the communication
that's one of the best examples of 2 humans not talking to each other for 2 hours brute has ever seen. the only other candidate is Sam Harris' "discussion" about consciousness/free will with Dan Dennett. hm. maybe there's a pattern here.

Yeah this conversation was painful to listen to as they're just stuck on the same point for two hours not making any progress.

[7Wannabe5]

I think the witch-hunt for predators has definitely crossed the line of unintended consequences. One of my favorite garden essayists also wrote a book on raising her young sons in London in the years just after WWII. In one chapter she describes how she calmly informed them that they may encounter some older men who are interested in young boys as they walked through the streets unattended on their way to school. Same danger-totally different parenting approach than average affluent, educated parent of today.

OTOH, it definitely is not the case that fathers are less involved than in my mid 20th century childhood. I distinctly remember thinking I was lucky because I had a father who did fun things with us on the weekend rather than, for instance, going golfing.

[ThisDinosaur]

If you haven't seen his first discussion with Sam Harris I think the communication
that's one of the best examples of 2 humans not talking to each other for 2 hours brute has ever seen. the only other candidate is Sam Harris' "discussion" about consciousness/free will with Dan Dennett. hm. maybe there's a pattern here.

Yeah this conversation was painful to listen to as they're just stuck on the same point for two hours not making any progress.

I bailed on it early. The second attempt was better, but it was neither of their best stuff.
Tangentially, why does BRUTE like Dennett more than Harris? Dennett bores me to sleep.

[ThisDinosaur]

OTOH, it definitely is not the case that fathers are less involved than in my mid 20th century childhood. I distinctly remember thinking I was lucky because I had a father who did fun things with us on the weekend rather than, for instance, going golfing.

Peterson says that there is a transition in the roles of each parent as kids get older. Young children need the overprotective affectionate instincts of their mothers early on. But this becomes pathological if it extends too far into adolescence (lest they become SJW snowflakes). The father's tendency for discipline becomes more important as the kid approaches independence.

[7Wannabe5]

@ThisDinosaur:

I don't disagree. In fact, I would say that there are the same proportion of pathological bullies in schools these days, but far more infantile constant attention seeking tattle-tale bullies. However, I think this may have more to do with the mythology of quality time than ratio of Mom to Dad time.

[prognastat]

OTOH, it definitely is not the case that fathers are less involved than in my mid 20th century childhood. I distinctly remember thinking I was lucky because I had a father who did fun things with us on the weekend rather than, for instance, going golfing.

Peterson says that there is a transition in the roles of each parent as kids get older. Young children need the overprotective affectionate instincts of their mothers early on. But this becomes pathological if it extends too far into adolescence (lest they become SJW snowflakes). The father's tendency for discipline becomes more important as the kid approaches independence.

This might explain why children of single fathers statistically perform better than those of single mothers. For many the divorce will likely have happened after having had a few years with their mothers during the time where having a mother is most important and those that remained with the father after divorce got the father's treatment at the time that was most important where as those whose father's influence was reduced right when that influence is of most importance.

[Mister Imperceptible]

For instance, when on some other thread Jacob said that making his first scientific discovery was even better than sex, he was heading in the direction of literature.

When JLF relates the anecdote of being told about doing something that more than 5 people care about (neutron stars), this too is headed toward literature. “It stuck with me.” What, no underlying axiom?

[Mister Imperceptible]

Another thing I've heard Peterson use in explaining the rise of further-to-the-right movements is that it's a natural (doesn't mean good or just) reaction to the growing ascendance of so-called identity politics. If one side (in this case the further left) identifies an enemy/oppressor described by an n-tuple (race, religion, gender, orientation, whatever, etc) and seeks to pit a coalition of not that n-tuple against it in oppressor versus oppressed conflict, some fraction of the n-tuple will say, "Okay, fine, I'll play your identity game too, and I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure my group wins and yours loses." He always adds something like, "...and that's not good either." All of that is discussed in the context that he believes identity politics is the antithesis of western democratic ideals where in principle importance is placed on the individual rather than any group identity.

I think this sums up his surge in popularity. I think if you’re white and perhaps also male and told in a supposedly intellectual forum that you “need to be quiet and hear voices from historically oppressed communities” the idea is all fine and good, but this manifests itself as many persons from historically oppressed communities adopting a holier-than-thou attitude of moral superiority. Couple that with what is being discussed above with males being assumed as predators, and you have an environment in which white males are basically being told they need to feel guilty for essentially nothing. Obviously any ideology that revolves around me self-identifying as a “rapist colonizer and oppressor who must atone for the crimes of his forefathers” I am going to reject, and if I were a less informed/educated/open-minded person, I could very easily see how I could starting beating the drum of the alt-right.

When a Latina woman shrieks “White men have never had to apologize for anything, so you need to be quiet” and hundreds of persons applaud, what can you say? Anything I say is invalidated, because I’m a white guy. With all due respect to the sheepish-looking white guy in the room who keeps asking for the microphone so he can talk about the merits of “plurality” and “intersectionality,” and looks to the crowd for approval (because of course he is not allowed to have his own opinion at this point, he is an oppressor and must atone), I don’t want to be him.

Although I agree with BRUTE above, what few clips I’ve seen of Peterson on YouTube are sometimes torturous to listen to. The man is no orator. But it goes to show- there is a market out there for something different.

[IlliniDave]

Although I agree with BRUTE above, what few clips I’ve seen of Peterson on YouTube are sometimes torturous to listen to. The man is no orator. But it goes to show- there is a market out there for something different.

There's times when he's pretty good, but yeah, other times not so much.

[7Wannabe5]

When JLF relates the anecdote of being told about doing something that more than 5 people care about (neutron stars), this too is headed toward literature. “It stuck with me.” What, no underlying axiom?

I was quoting "Lab Girl" by Hope Jahren on the other thread. This is the fascinating memoir of a female scientist. She is like what you would get if you mixed Jacob with my crazy musician INFP sister who listened to Mozart by gripping bare speaker wires. This book made me want to make a scientific discovery, instead of my usual kind of discoveries along the lines of horseradish cheese tastes good on gingersnaps, or what sort of watering can works well as an improvised chamber pot.

[BRUTE]

Tangentially, why does BRUTE like Dennett more than Harris? Dennett bores me to sleep.

but he's right.

plus, brute dislikes Harris. too full of himself, too little substance. listening to Harris talk about meditation is like listening to a 10 year old who just discovered masturbation.

[BRUTE]

Obviously any ideology that revolves around me self-identifying as a “rapist colonizer and oppressor who must atone for the crimes of his forefathers” I am going to reject, and if I were a less informed/educated/open-minded person, I could very easily see how I could starting beating the drum of the alt-right.

brute completely agrees with this (classical liberal) part of JP's argument. the Trump election made this completely clear to brute.

before, brute had assumed that the whole identity politics/"equality" movement was a positive-sum game - making the world better for all humans. the last few years, it has become more and more clear that it is really intended to be a zero-sum game. the other (white/male) side has now realized this. some of them are migrating into the classical liberal (JP + intellectual dark web) tribe, trying to change the game back into a positive-sum game. some are migrating into the alt-right tribe, trying to win the zero-sum game.

[blackbird]

Folks,

I'm an infrequent and reluctant poster, but to the several posts claiming that a large downturn in fathers' roles in primary education due to an unwillingness of men to be allowed around young children I ask, do you have young children? Is there any evidence to support this?

My child is under 10 years old, and I am active in her life in all regards. I take her to the park almost daily, and when I do, I am surrounded by fathers playing with their own kids. I'm about to take her to afternoon swim lessons at the public pool, and there are MORE fathers there than mothers.

I'm not writing this in the need to defend fathers, I'm writing this to point out that I come here in the first place with an expectation that blanket statements rise above the typical yahoo comments / reddit flippancy to be substantive either through direct experience over a considerable time period, or through sourced, publically accessible research that holds up to review.

I'll now go back to my typical regret for posting....

[Mister Imperceptible]

@blackbird

Why apologize for your own experience?

I did feel treated suspiciously as a substitute teacher in elementary school, compared with high school. The younger children are, the more suspiciously you are treated. To have people eyeing you in that way feels pretty peculiar. I’m not complaining about it, but it does impact how you interact with people. I imagine I could develop more positive relationships if I could be seen having positive interactions with children, rather than having no interactions.

But I am a bachelor. Maybe your being seen with your daughter results in you being treated differently, in you being accepted by the “tribe of fathers.”

[BRUTE]

brute has heard men say they will NEVER be alone in a room with their nieces because of this. they refuse to babysit their siblings' kids in fear of allegations.