Jordan Peterson

[IlliniDave]

I typically don't like attracting attention to any of the cable news outlets but this caught my eye (Youtube has noticed I've searched on Peterson I guess), is relevant to Jordan Peterson, peripherally skirts on part of the direction this thread has involved, and indicates maybe that some of the more extreme representations out there aren't just straw men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP177aPTmn0

[thegreatvoid]

herbivore men and MGTOW. Men are learning to live truely fullfilling life´s without women.
Women want to purge all government / educationional institutions and boardrooms from men. Fine !

This toxic straight white man in his early twenties will be enjoying the ERE life !

[ThisDinosaur]

@iDave
That clip just makes me acutely aware of the manufactured controversy. Yes, toxic masculinity is an absurdly offensive idea. But fewer people would take it seriously if there weren't 24hr news sites and social media profiting from our outrage.

[Mister Imperceptible]

@thegreatvoid

I think I saw you write elsewhere that you’ve been through a bad relationship, perhaps a divorce. That sucks. I have had some really bad experiences with women, but I’ve never been through a divorce, so I’m not sure what practical advice I can give.

I would be careful about extrapolating your bad experience with one or a few women into the demonization of an entire gender. Neither gender has a monopoly on being terrible. Whatever you have endured, I am sure a woman has endured as bad or worse, and a man was responsible for her suffering. Sometimes you just get dealt a shit hand.

Also, the surety with which men from the MGTOW movement declare that they are happy without women tells me everything. The person on Facebook insisting that they are blissfully happy is almost assuredly one of the most miserable of people.

[prognastat]

@blackbird

Since you feel the need to call out us for not providing data/sources while at the same time relying on anecdotal evidence of your own...

Source for increase in fatherlessness:
https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time ... ldren.html
Table CH-1
2017 % of children without their father in the household = 30.8%
1960 % of children without their father in the household = 11.2%
Average yearly increase = 0.34%

Seems like a rather drastic reduction of father involvement.

Male Teacher Involvement Source:
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13 ... 209.10.asp
1987-1988 % of teacher that were male = 29.5%
2011-2012 % of teacher that were male = 23.7%
Average yearly reduction = 0.24%

The second is a much smaller time frame but a similar consistent reduction on a year to year basis just like the increase in fatherless homes.

The vast majority of the teachers that are men also don't teach primary school, but secondary and beyond.

Your anecdotal experience doesn't constitute data.

[ThisDinosaur]

Also, the surety with which men from the MGTOW movement declare that they are happy without women tells me everything. The person on Facebook insisting that they are blissfully happy is almost assuredly one of the most miserable of people.

That made me think of this:
https://ourworldindata.org/wp-content/u ... piness.png
Major life events have a time-limited effect on well being. You eventually return to baseline subjective happiness. But divorce appears to have a lasting positive effect.

[Finn]

Well, here in the Nordics, fathers are very much involved in their kids’ lives, and have been, for a generation or two. Beginning from the 1980s, SAHMs have been *extremely* rare, bc women generally work (it’s almost taboo these days to not have a career, genitals be damned). We have paternal leave (I believe this is the case in all five countries but please correct if I’m wrong), and young fathers do use it.

Yet we seem to have individuals who feel disenfranchised in a similar way; conservative keyboard warrior types (CKWs?), if you will. Some are decidedly MGTOW, redpill, blackpill, etc. It’s a very internet-based phenomenon.

So, what’s to be done?

[prognastat]

Has divorce been on the rise in the Nordics(as far as I am aware they have been in most first world countries). If it has been, who has generally become the primary caregiver? If divorce has risen and primary care is generally given to the mother then though possibly father involvement for those fathers still in the home might have increased, those with divorced parents have likely suffered leading to an increase in inequality between children of intact marriages and those with divorced parents.

[7Wannabe5]

Well, let me throw a little petrol fuel on the fire, by suggesting that the relevant factor isn't whether there is a human who literally possesses balls in the room, or a child's life, x hours per week, but whether there is a human who actually behaves as though he possesses balls. In the course of my development of post-feminist perspective, I read a good deal of pre-feminist and even male player literature, and it is pretty clear that there are some structural and bio-chemical realities that are only best denied at some risk or long-term expense. For instance, the set of behaviors that constitute "taking the lead" in social relationship have clearly been demonstrated to increase testosterone levels, and testosterone levels (with some notable exceptions) are linked to bright outlook and energetic feeling of ambition. So, for instance, I learned that it is much easier for me to get laid if/when I allow the man with whom I wish to knock boots to take the lead, even if it is not my rational belief that he is more fit for the position.

Unfortunately, in our culture, a lot of men, especially young men, have either been chastened or provided with no model for taking the lead, so sometimes I have to present and maintain a very submissive posture (which takes an equivalent amount of strength and more flexibility) in order to encourage a man. The old ones generally perk right up, because they remember the dance, but I don't know about most of the young ones..? I feel very sorry for many of the young husbands I have encountered recently at the garden center. They will talk with me for a long time, almost like they think I can sell them a lawn tool which will make their young wives happier.

[Finn]

@prognastat, yes, the Nordics do have a high divorce rate, you are correct in that, however, the legislation and culture around custody are, as I understand it, different compared to the US:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... spol.12138

I can anecdotally say that 50/50 arrangements are normal here in Finland as well. This is not to say that there aren’t any hostile divorce proceedings or dysfunctional ”intact” families here, but the fact remains that it’s normal for fathers to be present *and* that redpill/mra culture/hate for ”SJWs” has a footing here as well.

I feel bad for all this OT My opinion of JP is not flattering. First time I saw him speak, I was impressed, but that was quickly subsided by a fairly negative view. I’m not well read on postmodernism, but it’s easy to see he’s not either*. I think it’s irresponsible of him to twist those thinkers into what appers to be his own brand of Carthago delenda est, ”And that’s why SJWs are crazy!” while doing his pacing-back-and-forth-in-a-cardigan bit in order to exude academic authority for his internet audience.

* I don’t have much knowledge of Marx either, but at least I know not to conflate Marxism and postmodernism, which are different intellectual movements with a very different fundamental worldview.

@7w5, I agree that it is absolutely crucial to get to know yourself enough to be able to ”do the dance”. This is difficult if you have to take the lead, because you have to be able to separate relationship dynamics from mere ass-holery. After I learned ”the dance” and how to take the lead, I was able to take the training wheels off, so to speak, and get into a serious relationship. She has her power and I have mine.

[prognastat]

The thing to keep in mind is even with 50/50 custody that means the children only have access to their father half of the time they would have otherwise(same for mother of course but focusing on the fathers as thats been the topic of discussion) so even in the best case scenario during a divorce where both parents equally share custody and are amicable there is a significant reduction in involvement. Of course this is better than a situation where there is little to no involvement left, but I would say it is still a very suboptimal outcome for the children.

As for Jordan Peterson and his talking about Marxism and postmodernism together he actually does explain some why he does this on occasion and that he understand that the underlying principles for the two aren't compatible, but that SJWs still use a combination of the two in his opinion. I would recommend seeing if you can find a clip of him directly addressing this criticism and see if you still disagree after he has adressed it directly.

[Mister Imperceptible]

@7w5

The problem today is when a man has balls he also opens himself up to accusations of being a predator. Taking the lead is preferable, but society is actively pushing for men to be passive so that “no woman will ever have to say #metoo again!” As if such a thing were possible.

This attempt by society to deny biology is pervasive. It’s as though being aggressive and not being a rapist/pervert are considered to be mutually exclusive.

[Mister Imperceptible]

Another anecdote.

I was invited back to a hotel room by a woman not to long ago. She booked the room. I paid for parking. In the room she rejected my advances. Alright. Why did she book the room and invite me? Did she want to be overpowered? Some women want to see men push the boundaries of resistance. They want to be taken. But how am I to know? If she’s not that type of woman, and I overpower her, I just committed rape.

In the past, women had less recourse to the law, and men were more able to push boundaries. Of course that leads to way more unwanted violations. So there is no doubt that the cultural shift reduces the violations, but it also interferes with those moments when a woman craves to be taken.

The law of compensation. Nothing gained without something else lost.

[jacob]

I think we already had this discussion last year.

It was a shitshow to moderate. Can we not do this again?

[Mister Imperceptible]

I’m sorry Jacob. I was not aware of the thread. I’m not trying to stir up anything. It’s a messy world.

[7Wannabe5]

@Finn:

I agree that at highest level of fluid functioning it becomes very hard to determine lead/follow. IOW, the vector space over which power is exerted becomes multi-dimensional*.

* I know, I know, very hard to believe that nobody ever even invited me to play Dungeons and Dragons in high school, so instead I had to make-out with some guy who looked like Hutch in the back of a potato chip truck on Friday night.

[thegreatvoid]

@Mister Imperceptible just to clear the air. Never been married nor divorced. I´m definitely not more happy than in my blue pill days.
Trying to supress human nature is very exhausting.
It´s a little like being an atheist . Realizing that 99 % of humans have to tell themselves insane stories, that violet every law of the universe, in order to get through the day. To feel that their insignificant lifes have meaning and that they are not just upright walkig monkeys on a spinning mudball.

[BRUTE]

so dark

[7Wannabe5]

Eh, meaning can be difficult. Maybe try idle curiosity and candy? Works for me most of the time.

[IlliniDave]

Haven't listened to all of this but here's Peterson talking specifically about the two systems and presumably where/how they have converged.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLoG9zBvvLQ