Jordan Peterson

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:50 pm

Nothing new under the sun.
https://www.amazon.com/Man-Steel-Velvet ... 0911094237


It's more like engineering than science. It works without having to be reflective of some eternal truth. If you convey "order" you will attract "chaos", if you convey "assertive" you will attract "receptive" and vice-versa ad nauseum. Humans are very impressionable. It's like if you tell yourself "I am delicious like a peach.", you will instantly vibe more sexy (unless you are trying to attract somebody who is also saying something like "I am delicious like a peach." to himself.) Then since you are a social animal, the feedback loop from others, and even your self-perception of some of your behaviors as reflected in environments other than the social, will reinforce the behavior and aspects of identity.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by Solvent » Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:39 am

It's odd, two weeks ago I'd never heard of this guy and then in the last ten days every website I frequent has exploded with articles about him. I gather he's not new on the intellectual scene but he was certainly under my radar until recently.

I won't comment on him directly but more on some of the things I read about him/interviews. It reminds me of what happens to Peter Singer, a philosopher who I like, consider quite original, and who is very precise with his words. The interviews you find with Singer, going back at least a decade, often see instances of statements from journalists like: "So you're saying we should kill disabled people". Must be aggravating for interviewees to have to keep repeating "I didn't say that, you're not engaging with my actual views..."

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RFS
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by RFS » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:31 am

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:11 pm

@RFS
Do you think there's any benefit of buying the self authoring program over just spending some time reflecting/writing about your life and goals? I've read about the underlying research, and I'm interested, but not enough to spend $15 and a hundred hours on a self help program. Also, im skeptical of how much it would help someone who's already purusing FIRE with a savings rate >70%. Maybe I'll reconsider after I'm FI and wandering aimlessly for meaning.
It depends on how well you do it, I suppose. I found a lot of value in the program's structure. For example, writing about a limited number of memories helped me prioritize experiences that held the most valuable information. I personally don't think me sitting down and going from "alright, I'm going to sit down and reflect about my life and goals" would have been as fruitful. But that's just me. And I'm certainly not saying you'd do that.

It doesn't take 100s of hours. Each program (3) usually takes 4-5 hours. For whatever it's worth, it didn't strike me as a highly commercialized and cheesy self-help product. More of a "even if you don't think it will be, this is going to be dark and seriously painful at times. But it's important."

If you're going all-in on FIRE with a 70% savings rate and a bad-ass web of goals mentality, maybe you don't need the help. Although that sounds like it could be a one-dimensional mindset in relation to the self authoring program's benefits. I was pursuing FI before I worked on it, but just pursuing FI had not resulted in me examining and analyzing traumatic and formative past events, diving into my deepest virtues and faults as a person, then visualizing a holistic future that builds off that knowledge.

pukingRainbows
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by pukingRainbows » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:50 pm

wood wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:11 am
For those of you who have an opinion on the guy, please share.
...
Can't really tell what's ultimately on his agenda though.
In terms of his agenda, I think he genuinely believes in what he is espousing for others and is trying to live his life in accordance with those principles.

In my opinion, he's someone who is able to articulate what many people are feeling in modern society as well as offer a way forward. It's unique in that it combines psychology, religion, history, mythology and neuroscience in a seemingly credible way. I've been trying to find decent criticisms of his ideas but haven't really found anything other than attempts at character assassination, or nitpicking on specific points that aren't particularly relevant to his overall ideas and philosophy.

So far, I'm a big fan. His ideas have improved my life.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by ThisDinosaur » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:56 am

I'd also really like to hear a serious academic criticism of his ideas. Mainly this:

If the abstract ideas Peterson is extracting from the bible are really as fundamental as he claims (i.e., they predate our divergence from lobsters 600 million years ago) they should be present in other long-lasting religious traditions. Are they?

He references Mesopotamian and Egyptian mythology as a comparison, but that's not very helpful since Judaism is basically a direct descendant of both of those religions through Canaanite mythology. Sometimes he mentions Buddhism and taoism, too, but only briefly.

What I'd *really* like to see is the same major ideas in Hinduism and native American traditions. That would be really impressive evidence. But I don't know enough about them to compare them to what JP has done with the Bible.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by pukingRainbows » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:45 pm

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:56 am
If the abstract ideas Peterson is extracting from the bible are really as fundamental as he claims (i.e., they predate our divergence from lobsters 600 million years ago) they should be present in other long-lasting religious traditions. Are they?

He references Mesopotamian and Egyptian mythology as a comparison, but that's not very helpful since Judaism is basically a direct descendant of both of those religions through Canaanite mythology. Sometimes he mentions Buddhism and taoism, too, but only briefly.

What I'd *really* like to see is the same major ideas in Hinduism and native American traditions. That would be really impressive evidence. But I don't know enough about them to compare them to what JP has done with the Bible.
The book, "A history of Religious Ideas" by Mircea Eliade might be interesting for you as it runs through the world's religions and their ideas. I've only read a bit, but you can see the through lines that carry over through different times and cultures in their religions. As well, you can see similar philosophical conclusions to JBP's stuff in Taoism and Confucianism that evolved from a completely different historical milieu.

However, I think your question is based on a slight misunderstanding of what's being presented. As I understand his ideas, religion is viewed as a reflection of the psychological evolution of humanity. So religions and their stories evolve along with the society's psychology at that time.

As you say, Judaism is a descendant of previous religions and it seems like that continuation continues forward as the newer stories subsume the older ones, the same way human psychology develops by layering onto the previous. Hence he's referring to the evolution of psychology as well as religious thought.

So Christianity continues the philosophical evolution from Judaism. And that's not to say that Judaism was lacking per say, but more like, Christianity continued to develop certain ideas more than others based on the society at that time.

Similar to you, I'm not quite satisfied with these answers though. I definitely feel like I would benefit from a more thorough understanding of other religions. Islam is a contemporary religion and I'm interested to know how it compares when viewed through the same evolutionary lens. As well, native American beliefs would also be interesting to understand as they developed in relative isolation.

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fiby41
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by fiby41 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:45 am

@ThisDinosaur: I don't know about abstract ideas but the only common story throughout, that satisfies all the criteria you specified, that I know of, is the great deluge.

It's when Noah gets his divine revelation to build the ark.
It's when Vishnu takes first of his ten avatars as Mat-sya to pull and steer Man-u : the progenitor of man-kind's boat.

Likely a cultural remnant that endures from the melting of the last ice age.

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:30 am

I first read about this culture in "Beyond Belief: Islamic Excursions Among the Converted People" by V.S. Naipaul.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/indonesia ... al-society

It's interesting because the culture was well established in the practice of matrilineal inheritance of property before conversion to Islam, a religion formed in the patriarchal lineage of Abraham. When polygyny, as permitted by Islam, is practiced, the man must move between the properties that are owned by his wives. The lesser inheritance for females in Islam was actually a huge improvement on the inheritance prospects or right to own property or not to be considered as property of Jewish or Christian females at the time of the writing of the Koran. It only seems horribly backward now in comparison to post-suffragette Western practice of the less than the last 150 years.

Native American culture, like most human cultures that only practice nominal slash-burn agriculture, did not hold concept of private property, just personal property.

Modern technology/affluence allows females the ability to live independently and engage in lucrative creative work to support themselves. Religious practice follows economic reality, although there is always some loop of feedback. Disney movies are based on the mythologies/tales of patriarchal hierarchy agricultural cultures which have hugely dominated human reality for the last several thousand years until only very recently. That does not mean that they represent the only "natural" possibility for humans. For instance, it is possible for humans to thrive in a culture in which there is no longer a notion of what it means to be a "Princess." (Overheard in 1st grade classroom conversation between 3 little girls. "I hate Princesses." "I hate Princesses too!" "Well, at least you can pick the personality of Princess you want." "I guess.")

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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by pukingRainbows » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:58 pm

@7Wannabe5 - I think the more interesting question for me is why is that princess concept so appealing to most young girls in the first place? And why did those stories and cultures dominate rather than the other possibilities?

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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by ThisDinosaur » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:20 am

pukingRainbows wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:45 pm
The book, "A history of Religious Ideas" by Mircea Eliade might be interesting for you as it runs through the world's religions and their ideas.
Good find! I'm reading it on archive.org.
In fact, after I started reading it, I watched Peterson's 4th bible lecture, and he specifically references this book. I guess my concern is that, as compelling as his ideas are, I want to be careful JP is not reading more into the bible than is actually there. That's why I am interested in cross-referencing other long-surviving religious texts for the same concepts.
fiby41 wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:12 am
Because of the Matthew Principle or the Shree Suktam. Jordan Peterson mentions the former frequently in his videos. They are to the effect respectively:

Adressing Lakshmi, the Goddess of Wealth:

Those who have some wealth [are able to] beget more with your grace. So enrich me with some [of your grace.]

सोमं धनस्य सोमिनोमह्यं ददातुसोमिनः ॥

~Shree Suktam in the Rig Veda.
@fiby41 or anyone else familiar with Hinduism. Do you see anything else in Peterson's videos that reminds you of Hinduism? Specifically, speaking order into existence by truthfully describing the world (Brahman)? I just found out that the Upanishads may have influenced Plato, or at least preempted his ideas by 2-3 hundred years.

You can invent a religion de novo if you want (i.e., scientology), but if you expect it to last a thousand years or more, it better be connected to existing tried-and-true ones. [example; Indian Deva, Christian Deus Pater (God the Father), Greek Zeus pater, Roman Jupiter are all conserved from a common indo European religion from pre-literate asia.]




--

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fiby41
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by fiby41 » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:11 am

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:20 am
Do you see anything else in Peterson's videos that reminds you of Hinduism?
1. When listening to Eye of Horus (Egypt), eye of providence the mind harks back to the Third eye of Shiva

2. Chaos and order, logos reminds me of Ṛta (Rita) in the Vedas and Dharma.

3. The hierarchy of authority he describes is eerily similar to the Maha Meru (Shree Yantra in 3D)

4 Atlas taking up the world on his shoulders.
Varaha avatar of Lord Vishnu taking up the earth on his tusks.

5. Prometheus stealing fire from the gods and giving it to the humans.
Athavan first brought down Agni from heaven to start yagna. Atharva Veda is named in his honour.

6. Slaying the dragon and rescuing the princess.
It reminded me of Ramayana.


7. Beauty and the beast.
Nara-Simha avatar of Lord Vishnu.

8. Cain and Abel reminds me of the Pandava-s and Kaurava-s.
ThisDinosaur wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:20 am
example
From the link posted in Agni's journal:

The word agni is Sanskrit for "fire" (noun), cognate with Latin ignis (the root of English ignite),
Russian огонь (ogon),
Polish "ogień,"
Lithuanian - ugnis - all with the meaning 'fire'.
Proto-Indo-European root (reconstructed word) h₁égni
Agni has three forms: fire, lightning and the sun.

The Sanskrit devá- cognate with
Lithuanian Dievas
(Latvian Dievs,
Prussian Deiwas),
Germanic Tiwaz (seen in English "Tuesday") and
Latin deus "god" and divus "divine", from which the English words "divine", "deity",
French "dieu",
Portuguese "deus",
Spanish "dios" and
Italian "dio", also "Zeys/Ζεύς" - "Dias/Δίας",
Greek father of the gods, are derived.
Proto-Indo-European (PIE) reconstructed word *deiwos

Sanskrit Pitar -
Middle English fader,
Old English fæder,
Proto-Germanic *fadēr
(cf. East Frisian foar,
Dutch vader,
German Vater),
Proto-Indo-European reconstructed root *ph₂tḗr
ThisDinosaur wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:20 am
pukingRainbows wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:45 pm
The book, "A history of Religious Ideas" by Mircea Eliade might be interesting for you as it runs through the world's religions and their ideas.
Good find! I'm reading it on archive.org.
Thanks for the link.
Last edited by fiby41 on Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:05 am

pukingRainbows wrote: I think the more interesting question for me is why is that princess concept so appealing to most young girls in the first place? And why did those stories and cultures dominate rather than the other possibilities?
https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 017-0773-8
Through their 11 official princesses, Disney circulates powerful and consistent messages regarding gender norms and roles. Inspired by the princesses’ ubiquity in the lives of young girls, we examined how preschool girls interpreted gender-role stereotypes in Disney Princess media both through their pretend play behaviors and their discussions of the princesses. Participants included 31 3- to 5-year-old girls who represented an array of racial/ethnic and socioeconomic backgrounds and who came from four classes at two preschools in rural New England. Data collected from a variety of methods, including pretend play observations, semi-structured interviews, and parent questionnaires revealed participants’ stereotypical beliefs about the princesses and their adherence to gendered behaviors when enacting the princesses. Thematic analyses identified four themes that defined the participants’ princess play: beauty, focus on clothing and accessories, princess body movements, and exclusion of boys. The implications of gendered princess play are discussed in relation to the social cognitive theory of gender development and differentiation. Based on the outcomes of our study, parents and educators might reconsider the type and amount of media they provide their children, acknowledging the effects of these images on their children’s behaviors and understandings of gender.
The Disney Princess meme is so prevalent in the world-wide mindset of young children going through strong gender identification phase of development, that I have frequently had the experience that a 5 year old girl recently immigrated from Yemen or Bangladesh or Northern Africa, who is not yet fluent in English, will point to my braid and say "Elsa." It is so overwhelmingly popular, I was surprised to overhear the conversation I outlined in my post above, in which 6 and 7 year old girls were rejecting the meme. Important note might be that these Princess-meme-rejecting-or-transcending girls were from affluent, very well-educated background. They attended a school which provided them with Chinese language lessons, hiking trails, robotics training and after-school yoga sessions. Therefore, it is likely that they were to a good extent taught to reject the meme by their parents for the same reason their parents would find "Honey Boo Boo" repugnant. However, it was not the case that these girls were being trained towards total gender neutrality. In fact, the child who stated that she hated Princesses wore her hair in something closely resembling an Elsa braid, and she likely wore pink tennis shoes with her functional-cute overalls. So, might be more indicative of an uber-aspirational class rejection of lower-class version of meme, rather than outright rejection. IOW, faux-Princess wears sparkly pink dress vs. true Princess is fluent in at least two languages.

The Princess is a character who incorporates both Beauty and Status, so any attributes which are indicative of Status and accepted within a given culture as being fairly gender-neutral will be assigned to Princess role within that particular culture. Are there attributes which our species tend towards universally regarding as indicative of Beauty or Status? Of course. Are we intelligent enough to write narratives that recognize this reality and freely choose to make use of them to our benefit, or do we stick to the notion of biology is destiny even when it is clearly apparent that biology has granted us with brain function complex enough to argue that on this level biology need not be destiny.

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fiby41
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by fiby41 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:43 am

9. Abraham & Sara sound very similar to Brahma & Saraswati who're also consorts of each other.

I've started JBP's video on Abraham but not finished it, so so far no similarities except the name.

Abraham and Brahmaa are anagrams. The last vowel is a long a anyway.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by ThisDinosaur » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:38 am

@fiby41
Awesome. Thanks for that.
I'll add to your list; I read that the four Vedas were supposedly spoken into existence by each of Brahma's four mouths. Sounds suspiciously like the Logos to me.

Now the question is, if there is a conserved ancestral religion, does that support or negate JBP's hypothesis?
On the one hand, these subtle ideas have been preserved. This implies they are Meaningful to Humanity.
On the other hand, the common descent rules out any out-of-sample verification.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:05 am
will point to my braid and say "Elsa." It is so overwhelmingly popular, I was surprised to overhear the conversation I outlined in my post above, in which 6 and 7 year old girls were rejecting the meme.
Very important point. In one of the JBP bible lectures, he specifically talks about how he hates "Frozen." In contrast to "Sleeping Beauty," which fits a bunch of his archetypes. This seems like a critical flaw in his reasoning. Because both of those movies were commercially successful and emulated by young girls. His female archetype is not very fleshed out. A mother holding an infant, while stepping on a snake (protecting from predation) is a pretty strong image. But little girls playing with dolls don't pretend to fight dragons at the same time. Its usually either one or the other. The only example of a Heroic Mother I can think of in movies is Sarah Connor from Terminator. But in the first movie, her Savior child isn't even conceived yet, and in the second he's a heroic sub adult.

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fiby41
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by fiby41 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:31 pm

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:38 am
The only example of a Heroic Mother I can think of in movies is Sarah Connor from Terminator.
Another example would be Lilly Potter in the HP series. She gave her life to deflect the spell Voldemort cast on Harry.
ThisDinosaur wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:38 am

A mother holding an infant, while stepping on a snake (protecting from predation) is a pretty strong image.
Iconography with similar elements: infant, (protecting) snake, parent.

Image

New-born Krishna being taken to safety by his father
accross the Yamuna river after being born in prison.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:58 am

ThisDinosaur wrote:Very important point. In one of the JBP bible lectures, he specifically talks about how he hates "Frozen." In contrast to "Sleeping Beauty," which fits a bunch of his archetypes. This seems like a critical flaw in his reasoning. Because both of those movies were commercially successful and emulated by young girls. His female archetype is not very fleshed out. A mother holding an infant, while stepping on a snake (protecting from predation) is a pretty strong image. But little girls playing with dolls don't pretend to fight dragons at the same time. Its usually either one or the other. The only example of a Heroic Mother I can think of in movies is Sarah Connor from Terminator. But in the first movie, her Savior child isn't even conceived yet, and in the second he's a heroic sub adult.
How about Lagertha of Viking TV myth? I liked the part where after her husband took a second wife she set up her own Earldom :lol:

Actually, I agree with much of what Peterson conveys. I think most people find their purpose as some variation of helping "your baby" to live by making a decision about what else will be caused to die. However, I would say that the essential struggle is between "complexity and disorder" rather than "order and chaos." Therefore, you should think twice before you rashly decide to kill a being as complex as a snake in order to save "your baby." A lot of harm is done in the world when people act out of misplaced anxiety (unrealized baby.) Maybe post-modernism erred on the side of moral relativism, but that doesn't mean that it isn't stupid to acknowledge that a snake is also a living creature that can be integrated and understood. Life would be easier if clear-cut, but the embodiment of the "clear-cut" is the act of literally reaching out with tool and killing the chaotic life in front of you in order to expand human perspective. Post-modernism is dead. Post-reductionism rules, and I declare the Female Archetype to be a mother with a bright-eyed toddler on her hip, squatting down to show him a snake in the grass, and teach him what she knows of a snake and its qualities.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by ThisDinosaur » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:34 am

@fiby41
I haven't read Harry Potter. Sorry. But Lilly (his mother?) is not the main character. I feel like JBP's Jungian Archetype Theory would predict that women would be attracted to a story about rescuing their infants from monsters. Where the mother is clearly the main character and not a supporting one. I don't see a lot of that. Babies don't ever seem to be the McGuffin (except in Willow, and even then the main character is a man...)

@7Wannabe5
No disrespect to snakes, but they were a big source of stress for our ancestors. Predators of tree-dwelling primates include Birds of Prey from the air, snakes from the ground, tree-climbing big cats, and water dwelling crocodiles. Put those all together and you get a Dragon. A flying, slithering, submerged/invisible, fire-breathing, cat-bird-snake-odile is the thing you wanna avoid.

You can condition a human or a chimp to be phobic of a snake (or picture of a snake) easier than other objects. Even if they've never seen a snake. The implication is that "snake detection circuitry" is innate in primates. And anyone who hunts and kills one of these things is a brave hero.

Apep, the Egyptian serpent of chaos and the underworld, who embodies the entire horizon, is slain by the sun god, Ra.

Psalms 74:14 "Thou didst crush the heads of leviathan, Thou gavest him to be food to the folk inhabiting the wilderness."

Isaiah 27:1"In that day the LORD with His sore and great and strong sword will punish leviathan the slant serpent, and leviathan the tortuous serpent; and He will slay the dragon that is in the sea."

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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by George the original one » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:10 am

We don't have poisonous snakes here in the temperate rain forest on the west coast of north america. Not a part of the native mythology. Now the thunder & fire gods on the mountains... yeah, we got those!

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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by fiby41 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:17 pm

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:58 am
However, I would say that the essential struggle is between "complexity and disorder" rather than "order and chaos." Therefore, you should think twice before you rashly decide to kill a being as complex as a snake in order to save "your baby." A lot of harm is done in the world when people act out of misplaced anxiety (unrealized baby.)
A farmer couple had a new born son. DW wanted to have a pet animal to protect the child which would also be a companion to the child while they'd be away all day on the fields. They debated and decided upon a mongoose. So they brought a mongoose and started rearing it. The couple thought that the mongoose would take care of the child while they were away. So they used to leave the mongoose and the child at home and go out to sow and till the land.

A couple of months later, on one such day DW returned earlier and on returning home found that the mouth of the mongoose was stained with blood . She immediately inferred that the mongoose had killed her child. In anger she threw whatever she was carrying on the mongoose and the mongoose was hurt badly.
She then rushed inside to see what happened to the child. She was surprised to find a dead snake lying in the room. She could infer that that the mongoose had saved the child's life by killing the snake. Realising the mistake she went out of the room only to find the mongoose dead on the floor. She cried out load at her hasty action.

~ Pancha-tantra (lit. Five principles, collection of 108 short, sometimes bedtime, moral stories for kids)
Female Archetype to be a mother with a bright-eyed toddler on her hip, squatting down to show him a snake in the grass, and teach him what she knows of a snake and its qualities.
Due to his pranks with his friends, [foster] mother Yashoda grounds Krishna from playing in the front yard. So he goes to the back yard, facing the forest, to play alone. A king cobra, was observing Krishna's game opening his hood.
Krishna approaches the cobra and starts playing with it. Yashoda immediately pulles off Krishna as soon as the whole ordeal comes to her notice.
She scolds him.

Image

Krishna being afraid of his mother's anger, apologizes to her. He was standing there, afraid of his mother, but not afraid of the cobra. I can't seem to find the final pic which gives some screentime to the cobra also.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

Post by JennyH » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:07 am

For the most part JP is great.

He does have a bias towards some opinions like Christianity, however, who of us doesn't?
I do not refer to him in every questions about life I have like many millenials do. But listening to him once in a while defintely broadens my horizon.

I especially like the way he breaks down allegations and totalitarian opinions. Watching the Channel 4 Interview with Cathy Newman is a must.

Also he is one of the only intellectuals in the public eye who takes a strong stand against weird and exagerated leftist movements and opinions (i.e. Trudeau's "people kind"). Also most women disagree with a totalitarian feminism but we are too afraid to stand our ground publicly...

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