Personality type evolution?

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Farm_or
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Personality type evolution?

Post by Farm_or »

I haven't done a personality test in several years. I thought I would see if anything changed. Pretty much the same conclusion, but had to wonder if I was less adamant on positions. I can't say because I don't remember if it was the same test or even if they are comparable that way.

Do personality traits evolve?

suomalainen
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Re: Personality type evolution?

Post by suomalainen »

I've thought about this a lot too in regard to my own "development" as well as my parents. In my (anecdotal) experience, personality traits are more likely to "be refined" than to "evolve". I think of it more like the rough edges can be smoothed or the extremes can be mediated, so the intensity may change, but the directionality doesn't.

But I'm just some guy. Anyone explored this and can link to something more informed?

daylen
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Re: Personality type evolution?

Post by daylen »

Self-actualization process and utilizing/controlling inferior cognitive functions.

Everyone evolves differently though. Wealth, fame, and health all complicate the process.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Personality type evolution?

Post by classical_Liberal »

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Last edited by classical_Liberal on Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

jacob
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Re: Personality type evolution?

Post by jacob »

Traits can evolve but preferences tend to stay the same.

Most here would be familiar with MBTI which is a test of preferences rather than evolution, e.g. T vs F. In terms of evolution, even if you prefer T, you can evolve [your F] to a point where your F is stronger than some less mature human who prefers F. Usually people prefer to use their most evolved side and as a result the other side can be undeveloped. Maturation has a lot to do with focusing on the lesser developed side. Strong MBTI types begin to mellow out that way once they've maxed their preferred side potential which for the faster types begin to happen around age 30 ... and for the slower ones not before they die at age 77.

For a useful model for looking at the evolution in a more generic sense, Kegan's constructive-developmental model (<- this is sort of the unified field theory because normally learning theories are either constructive (like the military bootcamp) XOR developmental (like a Scandinavian kindergarten)) is practical. This seems to me to have an analog in Kohlberg's moral development too.

https://medium.com/@NataliMorad/how-to- ... 3f4311b553

Kegan refers to the systems as "orders of consciousness" and posits that people actually can evolve through them and that this evolution is sequential (no skipping!). Mainly the orders pertain to one's tendency to abstract the concept of the self and other people's self/selves.

Second order consciousness (6% of adult population): A person who has a well-defined sense of self(*) and agency but no active consideration for other people's selves, so your typical teenager. For an adult example, see Trump. Kegan summarizes this attitude as "what do you want from me?". To be more specific, a second-order person can define their own self and they can understand that other people have their own self too, but a second-order consciousness is NOT capable of taking both of these [selves, yours and theirs] into account simultaneously. Other people are simply "things"---if this is taken too far, we refer to such adults as sociopaths, otherwise narcissists. What a second-order consciousness needs from others is respect and positive experiences. Problems need to be concrete and choices are based on their most recent experiences. If they don't get their way, they will become obstinate, recalcitrant, pout, and lock themselves in their room. Yadda yadda ...

(*) The first order consciousness doesn't have that yet. No adults stay in this infantile state, so I skipped it.

Third order consciousness (58% of adult population): A third-order consciousness is then one who automatically encompasses both their own self and another person's self in their consciousness. For an example, there should be plenty since this is the majority of adults. To be more precise, such a person will be form a relation with Ann, another relation with Bob, a third with Carl, .... and one with their work .. and another with their church ... and one with their club, etc. This makes them loyal, reliable, and committed [sometimes to a fault]. It can also be inferred that since third-order consciousness connects one's self to another self, there's a need for approval and acceptance. Also titles and status. Third-order matches with Kohlberg's level 3 and 4 where there's a need to fit in social and accept the given order of things. They vote according to shirt-color. The self has essentially become a part of the group. Third orders are capable of partnership. They can manage too but would see management more as individual relations with each of their employees than ...

Fourth order consciousness (35% of adult population): The self is habitually seen as distinct from the group instead of part of the group. These fish see the water they swim in. The third orders do not. (Note, that it's not like different orders can't understand how the mind works at other orders ... the defining issue is whether their own mind naturally works this way on its own). For adult examples, it shouldn't be too hard. Fourth-order will see themselves as individuals but in relation to the group (the latter is what second order is incapable of). They will also be able to recognize different groups (other than their own). They will be able to choose and discuss their own ideology w/o just regurgitating talking points. They demonstrate self-initiative and self-correction. Likely, many will read books :-P Job-wise these are the ones who seek to advance their career jumping from one job-system to the next ... instead of looking for approval/waiting for advancement within their existing relationship structure. When relating to other people, they see the relationship instead just relating. Fourth orders are capable of leadership.

Fifth order consciousness (1% of adult population): The self habitually sees beyond themselves, beyond other people, beyond groups they are part of, and beyond how they relate to other groups. Instead the focus is on how all these interrelate and connect. Empathy extends to other people in other groups; morally, we're talking Kohlberg level 6(5) here. Fifth-order will be able to continually create/construct their own ideology and also live it out. When relating to other people, they see how the relationships relate as a structure and recognize and drive the potential for different structures. Fifth orders are capable of "inspired leadership" if they aren't prematurely crucified.

Humans seem to naturally evolve to somewhere around 3 and 4 within the first 15-25 years on average. 5 happens late (not before around middle age) but usually/mostly doesn't happen at all in the average person. Kegan has hinted that natural human lifespan limits the average order of human consciousness.

Many others have spent a long time thinking about their mind too, here's Confucius:

“At 15 I set my heart on learning, at 30 I know where I stood, at 40 I have no more doubts, at 50 I knew the will of Heaven, at 60 my ears were attuned, and at 70 I followed my heart’s desire without crossing the line.”

... which you can see as him developing the next stage after internalizing the previous one. Note: The "will of Heaven" refers to the "natural order of the universe" and can be seen as being equivalent with the Stoic "according to nature" IOW, how the universe works. So at 15, he decided to establish an intellectual foundation and basically grow as a person, so at 15 he was solid second-order. At 30, then, he's in order 3 going on 4 and at 40, he was a solid 4. At 50, he knew what we now would call the meaning of life, and at 60, was seeing fifth-order consciousness and at 70 he was doing it as a matter of habit.

Farm_or
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Re: Personality type evolution?

Post by Farm_or »

What four letter personality type would Confucius be at age 70+?

I had to read it several times. Does this mean that personality evolves if the level of consciousness improves? Typically by age, learning, and experience?

Are personality types synonymous with levels of consciousness?

Thanks for helping me to understand

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Re: Personality type evolution?

Post by jacob »

No. Preference and consciousness are independent dimensions. You could have an order 2 INTJ and an order 4 INTJ and an order 5 ESFP, in principle.

Also keep in mind that a person might apply order 3 consciousness in some aspects/relations[hips] of life and 4 in others ... and maybe revert to 2 when stressed ... or go to 5 when talking about their management PhD or something else when having sex or dating. Therefore, consciousness development is sometimes written as 1, 2, 3, 3(4), 4(3), 4, 4(5), 5(4) and 5.

However, it does sound to me (from reading Kegan's book) that order 3 ~ S-types and order 4 ~ N-types ... but maybe that's just my confirmation bias. However, going back to preferences. Suppose EQ measures F and IQ measures T ... you can have EQ/IQ = 115/135 person and an 100/90 person ... and if people prefer the stronger side, the former would be a T and the latter an F even if the former actually has a better developed (higher order) emotional side.

jacob
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Re: Personality type evolution?

Post by jacob »

I think a better example/explanation of my last paragraph is to ignore eq/iq and consider (strictly for pedagogical purposes) how a extreme INTJ (non-mellow, say, age 23) would behave in a way that suggests second order consciousness when it comes to emotional matters (they understand their own feelings but put little value on other people's feelings beyond an abstracted ability to understand that the feelings are there); and fourth order consciousness when it comes to logical matters (they understand not only their own thinking and usually that of others but are able to see how the two relate pedagogically).

That make sense?

Farm_or
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Re: Personality type evolution?

Post by Farm_or »

I will have to dwell on that.

Hard for me to seperate preference from consciousness. Personality traits are based on people interaction (preference), but expanded consciousness (universal understanding) would seem to affect that?

daylen
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Re: Personality type evolution?

Post by daylen »

Personality goes beyond human interaction. Interaction within the mind is also being considered even if it isn't noticeable from an external observer. At least this is the case from the MBTI perspective of personality.

Also, consciousness roughly equates to awareness. You can be aware of a possibility without preferring it.
Last edited by daylen on Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jacob
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Re: Personality type evolution?

Post by jacob »

@daylen - Yes, for a more abstract perspective, see http://epubs.surrey.ac.uk/1198/1/fulltext.pdf to develop 6th order, 7th order and so forth.

Would also suggest that channeling Timothy Leary is not a useful strategy if insights arrive after losing ground contact/escaping the limits of Earth's gravity/gravitas ;-)

daylen
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Re: Personality type evolution?

Post by daylen »

@jacob - Thanks, and noted. :)

Stahlmann
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Re: Personality type evolution?

Post by Stahlmann »

hmm. again, interesting read.

anyway, dumb down this with practical examples and publish book on amazon for 5$ :-DDDD

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Alphaville
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Re: Personality type evolution?

Post by Alphaville »

here’s douglas sirk, an expert on the subject:

https://youtu.be/bWAxAcWcr2M?t=138

therefore:

https://youtu.be/2aQTGqqXHw4

watch it for culture!

crisis = change + opportunity or whatever :lol:

seriously, it is all good art history and worth the links

ps- ive mutated from infp towards intp as i’ve cooled with age, but i still remember my f lessons (take that f as you will, lol)

daylen
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Re: Personality type evolution?

Post by daylen »

I suspect that INFP->INTP is one of the more common mutations if they are possible. I do not know of any concrete evidence, but I keep an open mind. If using the distinction that Fi is an interested calculus and Ti is a disinterested calculus (just a heuristic), then the passions of your past self can become the phrases of your current self. Passion extracts a heavy cost as you age via stress. Whereas parsing is usually quite mellow.

Coupled with Ne, cultural adaptation is gradual yet accumulative. Allowing for an agent to potentially drift further from their local genetic valley. Though, perhaps Ni would be more likely to display a jump from one adaptive valley to the next using the culture equivalent of a punctuated equilibrium. Based on my gene-meme correspondence model this cultural speciation event would spawn a new language with a different paradigm that is incommensurable with the prior paradigm. Perhaps there were a few rare occurrences of this in our history. I'm probably getting a bit carried away here.

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Alphaville
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Re: Personality type evolution?

Post by Alphaville »

daylen wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 11:09 pm
. Passion extracts a heavy cost as you age via stress.
oh hell yes. it’s become fashionable in semi-recent times to talk about “passion passion passion” like it’s the way to live, but my response to that is “are you stupid? why would you want to subject yourself to thaton purpose?”

my adolescence and young adulthood were rich in damage and misery because “passion”. oyyy...

i think people who tout passion as this great thing to live by are just wannabes who don’t know what they’re talking about. :lol:

really the best thing to do with passion is get rid of it. the ancients knew this. then the romantics glorified their sickness and cursed us all with a free license to go mad. this did not end well.

anyway i always was and still am in the infp/intp borderlands, but where i used to be a 55/45 maybe i’m now 45/55? in any case i am doing much better thanks to that small drift. therapy, the arrival of middle age, and a minor dabbling in zen buddhism have helped a lot. very minor davbling though, as i’m not a religious person. still, every bit counts.

and yeah, that ☝️ was an interested calculation. infp might still be my core blueprint after all. but i’d rather be sane.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Personality type evolution?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Because I am reading “Please Understand Me”, I just tested myself again, and for the first time I had swung clearly over the line from eNTP to iNTP. Obvious reasons would be the fact that I am forced into more introverted mode by quarantine and recent completion of menopause has greatly reduced my sex drive. So, now I am both unable and less motivated to go out and interact with other humans.

OTOH, I feel like this was at core a false result, because my interaction with books, nature, the world, remains primarily exploratory, and only secondarily analytic. Also, because two of my sisters have previously experimented, I know that my sex drive would ramp right up again with just a teeny drop of testosterone gel, and I am tempted to give it a whirl post-vaccine.

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