Lean Logic by David Fleming

[7Wannabe5]

@MI:

We are exactly the same type, so I am curious about why I honestly do not at all grok how that scene from Equilibrium relates to "Carnival Master?" Compare and contrast with this scene which I also linked on Polyamory support thread, joking about my ideal 3-some. The actual reason why the scene appeals to me is that when Barnum (actual Carnival Master!) leaps on to the table while tap-dancing, it exactly corresponds with how I feel as an XNTP with strong F, when I am in a very good, energetic, optimistic mood. Like when I used to put on/produce shows in the garage with my younger sisters when I was a child.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJHX5T89t5Y

@jacob;

I think Fleming's concept of "carnival" likely suffers a bit from too much cultural precision. An example of how this might be translated is that my Millennial daughter is on a downtown development board for a small city and she told me they are focusing on filling empty shop fronts with experience-based businesses. Another good example would be a book I read about female run businesses in Paris providing very personalized services. At first approximation, service-based businesses do feed back into production/consumption loop, but I would suggest that past a certain level of saturation and within a reasonably closed loop, they amount to something more like "carnival." Some simple examples would be carnival dress color consultation services , intricate hair braiding workshop, and remedial clog dancing lessons.

OTOH, my gut prediction of what the decline/collapse might look like is based on the personal experience I had when a very bad thunderstorm knocked out the power and toppled the tent at a yearly summer festival in a decrepit, foreclosure and crime-ridden community just south of Detroit during the Great Recession, and I ended up huddled in an old very dimly lit bar with a motley crew of alcoholic townies.

[jacob]

@MI - You'll probably like the Dark Mountain project too then. I think my years in school made me allergic to singing and dancing ... and poems!

[Mister Imperceptible]

@7

The Grammaton Cleric is INTJ par excellence. In an unreasonable world, the ERE-island/mountain suffers the danger of reason becoming tyrannical.

[vexed87]

Like people who dance are not my kind of people Perhaps though this might be something one would get better at if it happened round the year. In current culture, it happens so rarely that I'm entirely out of practice for such things.)

Great to hear your thoughts Jacob.

Yes very symbolic of our market economy driven cultural poverty. A few pints of locally crafted ale might help with confidence

Or tactically pick up an instrument instead.

[jacob]

I spent four years of grad school living in Basel which has the second largest carnival (3.5 days of 24 hour street partying) in the world. This makes it more of a organized cultural tradition than the "carnivals" that were inflicted on me in middle school where one had to dress up and do embarrassing things, because fun?! For example, in the months leading up to the carnival music bands (called cliques, think marching band-clubs) would start practicing. Being too busy/focused on studies I never joined one but I was intrigued.

Danish xmas traditions are sufficiently intricate to be considered somewhat of a carnival: making decorations, certain foods, singing and dancing around the tree, ... Something that goes way beyond American traditions in terms of average effort and which I kinda miss (although too much of a good thing... like the @#$@ singing is also not optimal.)

So the idea would be that instead of working for 40 years to buy stuff for the home and the landfill, all this effort would be plowed into such celebrations of which there could be several, i.e. finish one, start the next, so the community is always preparing for something.

I do think that some of the organizations promoting this---STF, XR, and Dark Mountain---might comprise people who score the highest of "interpretative dancing"-affinity and thus scare away the rest of us. IOW, a proper carnival should have roles for all to fill; whereas now one gets the impression that it's more about making noise and dressing up in spandex customes.

[7Wannabe5]

IOW, a proper carnival should have roles for all to fill

If I was the carnival master, I would put you in charge of design and construction of Dunk Tank and water wheel powered Merry Go Round and Pyrotechnics Display, assign you a spot on one of the Bed Race or Broom Ball teams, and also give you entry forms for Trivia Challenge, Feats of Strength Tournament, and Best Brew Contest.

[jacob]

@7wb5 - My main issue with carnivals as we experience them in an individualistic market economy (to use STF's framework) is that they are arranged with the end of bringing people together and using the means of "lets do crazy shit together" to [unconsciously] form a community. Kinda like student orientation or pledge week. Whereas I think a cultural carnival requires a pre-existing community which then phase-shifts on a regular basis as some kind of outlet for either tension or production. That is completely different.

[7Wannabe5]

Well, I looked into the etymology and "carnival" comes from "Flesh, farewell!", because the people in the village would be eating the last of the stored meat before it was likely to rot just before the fasting necessitated by the hunger gap of late winter and early spring.

I was thinking about the kind of large tribal gatherings held by the Native Americans. These allowed benefits of trade and mate-selection outside of clan. Obviously, many species beyond our own engage in displays of bright colors, dancing, gift exchange, and feats of strength during process of sexual selection.

[vexed87]

Lean Logic's twitter account just announced the film "The Sequel" will be released for purchase and live streamed (presumably for free) on 17th March, details to follow.

[fiby41]

people in the village would be eating the last of the stored meat before it was likely to rot just before the fasting necessitated by the hunger gap of late winter and early spring.

Ditto Russian festival of Maslenicha.

[figmenter]

The whole dictionary is now also posted online: https://leanlogic.online/

[DarkOptimism]

I just stumbled back on this occasional thread, and wanted to let you all know about the Surviving the Future: Conversations for Our Time online offerings I've developed with Vermont's Sterling College over the past couple of years, based in the content and popularity of David Fleming's books:
https://www.ce.sterlingcollege.edu/surviving-the-future

Available all year round, but also including an annual eight-week live 'Deeper Dive' into our times that I'll next be hosting from Jan 31, 2022. And all offered on a 'pay what feels right' basis, since you'll know that David's books are big advocates for reducing dependence on money!

Shaun

[vexed87]

Just to say I attended the first run of this course during the first wave of UK lockdowns, and if nothing else, I took away a reading list as long as my forearm, but I enjoyed the guest speakers and Q&A tremendously, and left the STF course with some great social contacts and renewed vigour to pursue change in my community. Sadly I cannot commit to this new run as my work will prevent me engaging meaningfully, but I want to recommend Shaun and his small team at SC to those prepared to take a leap of faith. I doubt you will be disappointed and if you are unfamiliar with any of the guest speakers, you're in for a treat. And since folk here are famously hard to separate from their coin, Shaun had no need to pay me for this recommendation

[theanimal]

I have started reading both of them and am almost finished with Surviving the Future.

Has anyone here done anything to institute a form of "carnival" in your community? I'd be curious to hear what you've done.

I'd like to make more of a point of celebrating and fostering stronger community ties through gatherings. Here, outdoor fire gatherings are very common so the barrier is low. We celebrated Dia de Los Muertos at our house this year with a bunch of our friends and neighbors and that was a big success. Thanksgiving, the solstices and New Years are also regular gatherings. I'm thinking of coming up with others for other portions of the year to add to this. I haven't gotten very far, all I have is the equinox periods and a harvest celebration. Spring equinox or thereabouts can be a celebration marking the end of winter (or close to it, for up here) and the fall equinox can serve as a harvest celebration.