The Moneyless Manifesto

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fiby41
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The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by fiby41 » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:10 am


bradley
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by bradley » Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:40 pm

Thanks for sharing this. I was hooked by the introduction, so this is next on my reading list. At first glance, it seems to align with ERE in that it asks you to reevaluate something we take for granted (money), and see it for what it really is or is not. Looking forward to reading this.

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fiby41
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by fiby41 » Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:33 am

Then you *might* also like reading the blog of Daniel Suelo who "quit money" 15 years ago (reading the first post would sufficiently explain his principles, enough to broaden out minds.)

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vexed87
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by vexed87 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:16 am

I'm surprised this hasn't been picked up by more ERE'ers. It reeks of Chop wood carry water, aka level 8 of the ERE wheaton scale.

Not quite sure how I stumbled across this by, somehow by following a windy road of web URLs by UK writers on permaculture. Enjoying the read so far, only about 10% through though. Based on what I've read so far, I can strongly recommend it.

Edit, just noticed the webpage was mentioned in a 2013 post, well worth a bump at least for the newbies :)

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Fish
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by Fish » Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:31 am

Thanks for bumping this vexed! It's a really thoughtful vision of what the next level could be. Skimming it, I get the sense that the author is also a systems thinker. I really like that it's more "live according to nature" than "money is evil." Adding to my reading list.

Did
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by Did » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:04 pm

That dude gave up money for a few years but has been back on for longer I think. He used to work in the local shop apparently but was just paid in stuff. His thing now is to not use technology and writes Guardian articles about it.

Did
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by Did » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:18 pm

Here is some more info

https://www.unlimited.world/munchies/wh ... eyless-man

I'm off that way tomorrow. I'll see if I can drop into the community and say g'day.

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vexed87
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by vexed87 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:05 pm

Yep I saw those articles, but never connected the dots, thanks Did!

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Riggerjack
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by Riggerjack » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:48 am

So, this guy has a bit of land, and three books to shill, selling the idea of living simply, without money.

This guy's clones are all over the PNW. I have read plenty of idealist manifestos, with the same core values, and mild twists. At any given time, there will be 2 of these operations on the Olympic peninsula.

The formula is pretty simple. A more or less charismatic and more or less idealistic individual or small group get some land, and a copy of Walden, and go out to live the good life. Free of capitalism and evils of modern society.

Only, that takes work. A lot of work. In fact, far more work than they are willing to do. Then the advertising phase kicks in. We will host seminars, teaching people about this wonderful life we lead. And they can DONATE!

As the article said 3 years in, and "next year we will be 80% self sustaining" next year never comes.

Now, I'm not against this. Kinda like a young adult Disneyland. Selling a fantasy. More power to 'em. And this guy has 3 books and a journalist gig, so he is ahead of most. But eventually, the wear and tear is too much, the rabbits eat the garden, or there is an early frost, or you just have to pay taxes. They always fall apart.

The missing piece is ERE. They start by reducing expenses, and jump in. They build no antifragility. ERE teaches using the existing system to your advantage, but the people attracted to this mess are more interested in being seen flipping off the system, than actually making their own dreams work.

I'm all for living the dream, but this dream seems to lead to a lot of damage and pain.

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vexed87
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by vexed87 » Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:38 pm

@Riggerjack, did you read this book? IIRC the foreword mentions the author doesn't take profits from his writing, proceeds cover the cost of paper copies (we live in a money economy of course!), publishing expenses and website (where the book is free), the rest goes towards supporting an independent permaculture book publisher, his writing doesn't fund his activity, and from what I have gleaned from his collaborators, he doesn't take money at seminars. :lol:

His point is not really about money being evil, although he explains the problems it brings, it's really about the loss of the informal economy and importance of reciprocity which has been overtaken by impersonal exchange in the market economy.

Antifragility is taken care of by building a strong social network, effectively replacing the need for money. His message is if small mammals or a late frost wipe out your veg patch, your neighbours will help out if they have a stake in your survival, and you in theres.

The book is really about interdependence of humans in society, money gives the illusion of security, so long as faith in the financial system is maintained, it does, but what happens if dollar dies for instance? Money allows for complex societies, but reliance on a system of impersonal exchange may backfire. All currencies eventually die, and those totally dependent on the system might go down with it.

It's certainly not about imitating Thoreau and going it alone in a small group on a piece of land. If you didn't read it, I'd say give it a chance. You might enjoy it. Of course, it can be pretty damn convenient to have an impersonal exchange of goods for money, it has it's time and place, and I won't be giving away my investment portfolio any time soon to chase the simple life, even the author admits it's not practical in society as it is today, rather it is an ideal to strive for.

7Wannabe5
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:26 pm

Excellent link. Definitely a systems-thinker, and he repeatedly makes clear that his choices/experiences are not for everybody in every current situation. His own economic ideal is not just money-less, but 100% local and gift-based. I found this bit particularly amusing.
Bartering, as a social tool, is most valuable when done informally and without exact accounting (money is the ultimate form of exact accounting), like you offering me some of your glut of courgettes in exchange for sex. That has unfortunately never happened to me, I must add.

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Dragline
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by Dragline » Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:09 pm

People selling one-time transactional sex seldom accept foodstuffs.

OTOH, the gift economy for sex works much differently.

Barter. "You keep saying that word. I don't think that word means what you think it means."

Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more . . . :lol:

I am reminded of this timeless rhyme: "She offered her honor, he honored her offer, and all night long it was on her and off her."

7Wannabe5
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:11 am

@Dragline: lol

Seriously, I was struck by how the author of this manifesto came to some of the same odd observations and conclusions that I have in some of my very-short attempts or experiments to do without money at all and/or be a locavore. For instance, in the section on "Home", he writes that dealing with the Planning Board will likely be a serious hurdle, and that is exactly where I am currently stuck in my lifestyle design. I spent a half-hour chatting with the zoning commissioner and the administrative assistant at city hall just a few days ago. So, some of the suggestions in the manifesto were helpful.

The manifesto is worth reading just for his take on creation of POP (Progression of Principles) Model, which is akin to Wheaton Levels.
First, let’s look at my POP model for ‘economic systems’.

Level 1 (100% local gift economy):
Complete co-sufficiency on a gift economy basis.
Level 2: Co-sufficiency on a local currency/barter basis within a fully localised economy.
Level 3: Gift economies existing with minimal dependency on the dominate economic model.
Level 4: LETS, Timebanks and local currencies existing with minimal dependency on the dominant economic model.
Level 5: A ‘greener’ globalised monetary economy.
Level 6 (100% global monetary economy): A globalised monetary economy.

For another example, lets look at the category we’ll call ‘Transport’.

Level 1 (100% local gift economy): Walking barefoot, connecting with the earth beneath my feet.
Level 2: Walking in shoes I made myself (or were unconditionally gifted to me) from local materials.
Level 3: Walking in shoes I bartered for, which were made from local materials.
Level 4: Walking in trainers made in a Chinese factory.
Level 5: Cycling on an industrial scale bicycle.
Level 6: (100% global monetary economy): Driving a hybrid car.
So, the Moneyless Man currently maintains a lifestyle which cycles between Level 5 and Level 1 with Level 1 as his ideal. I sometimes describe myself as neo-primitive, so I liked that he communicated that his ideal is based on his personal pleasure found during his experiments in "going wild" and the modern science of ecology, not abstract "noble savage" philosophy.

Anyways, one thing that quickly becomes apparent to any pioneer, pilgrim or perma-culturist is that the other human beings wandering freely within the boundaries of your range, or made welcome within the boundaries of your domain, are likely to be your number one resource towards surviving and thriving. I am sure I have related this anecdote elsewhere, but two years ago when I first started working on my garden project, a middle-aged recently-immigrated man approached and attempted conversation regarding my intentions. I said something like "Just a hobby.", and he smiled and said "I make hobby with you?" Since then I have received a bicycle, a hauling trailer, use of a truck, use of a car, 2 pairs of boots, one pair of shoes, and one pair of sandals as unconditional gifts from men in my acquaintance. IOW, you are correct in your implication that I do not engage in outright barter for sex, even though I do say terrible things to my BF along the lines of "I consider my sexuality to be an asset somewhat analogous to owning a charming vacation rental property which it is a shame and a waste to let remain unoccupied for very long, even though maintenance expenses are quickly overtaking profits at this juncture." I think the Moneyless Man would grok that by exposing and destroying the artificial divide between the slim margin of what is left of the gift economy in our culture and everything else that is stamped with a price on the market, I am attempting to point the way up the scale.

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