The Moneyless Manifesto

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fiby41
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The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by fiby41 »


bradley
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by bradley »

Thanks for sharing this. I was hooked by the introduction, so this is next on my reading list. At first glance, it seems to align with ERE in that it asks you to reevaluate something we take for granted (money), and see it for what it really is or is not. Looking forward to reading this.

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fiby41
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by fiby41 »

Then you *might* also like reading the blog of Daniel Suelo who "quit money" 15 years ago (reading the first post would sufficiently explain his principles, enough to broaden out minds.)

vexed87
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by vexed87 »

I'm surprised this hasn't been picked up by more ERE'ers. It reeks of Chop wood carry water, aka level 8 of the ERE wheaton scale.

Not quite sure how I stumbled across this by, somehow by following a windy road of web URLs by UK writers on permaculture. Enjoying the read so far, only about 10% through though. Based on what I've read so far, I can strongly recommend it.

Edit, just noticed the webpage was mentioned in a 2013 post, well worth a bump at least for the newbies :)

Fish
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by Fish »

Thanks for bumping this vexed! It's a really thoughtful vision of what the next level could be. Skimming it, I get the sense that the author is also a systems thinker. I really like that it's more "live according to nature" than "money is evil." Adding to my reading list.

Did
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by Did »

That dude gave up money for a few years but has been back on for longer I think. He used to work in the local shop apparently but was just paid in stuff. His thing now is to not use technology and writes Guardian articles about it.

Did
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by Did »

Here is some more info

https://www.unlimited.world/munchies/wh ... eyless-man

I'm off that way tomorrow. I'll see if I can drop into the community and say g'day.

vexed87
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by vexed87 »

Yep I saw those articles, but never connected the dots, thanks Did!

Riggerjack
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by Riggerjack »

So, this guy has a bit of land, and three books to shill, selling the idea of living simply, without money.

This guy's clones are all over the PNW. I have read plenty of idealist manifestos, with the same core values, and mild twists. At any given time, there will be 2 of these operations on the Olympic peninsula.

The formula is pretty simple. A more or less charismatic and more or less idealistic individual or small group get some land, and a copy of Walden, and go out to live the good life. Free of capitalism and evils of modern society.

Only, that takes work. A lot of work. In fact, far more work than they are willing to do. Then the advertising phase kicks in. We will host seminars, teaching people about this wonderful life we lead. And they can DONATE!

As the article said 3 years in, and "next year we will be 80% self sustaining" next year never comes.

Now, I'm not against this. Kinda like a young adult Disneyland. Selling a fantasy. More power to 'em. And this guy has 3 books and a journalist gig, so he is ahead of most. But eventually, the wear and tear is too much, the rabbits eat the garden, or there is an early frost, or you just have to pay taxes. They always fall apart.

The missing piece is ERE. They start by reducing expenses, and jump in. They build no antifragility. ERE teaches using the existing system to your advantage, but the people attracted to this mess are more interested in being seen flipping off the system, than actually making their own dreams work.

I'm all for living the dream, but this dream seems to lead to a lot of damage and pain.

vexed87
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by vexed87 »

@Riggerjack, did you read this book? IIRC the foreword mentions the author doesn't take profits from his writing, proceeds cover the cost of paper copies (we live in a money economy of course!), publishing expenses and website (where the book is free), the rest goes towards supporting an independent permaculture book publisher, his writing doesn't fund his activity, and from what I have gleaned from his collaborators, he doesn't take money at seminars. :lol:

His point is not really about money being evil, although he explains the problems it brings, it's really about the loss of the informal economy and importance of reciprocity which has been overtaken by impersonal exchange in the market economy.

Antifragility is taken care of by building a strong social network, effectively replacing the need for money. His message is if small mammals or a late frost wipe out your veg patch, your neighbours will help out if they have a stake in your survival, and you in theres.

The book is really about interdependence of humans in society, money gives the illusion of security, so long as faith in the financial system is maintained, it does, but what happens if dollar dies for instance? Money allows for complex societies, but reliance on a system of impersonal exchange may backfire. All currencies eventually die, and those totally dependent on the system might go down with it.

It's certainly not about imitating Thoreau and going it alone in a small group on a piece of land. If you didn't read it, I'd say give it a chance. You might enjoy it. Of course, it can be pretty damn convenient to have an impersonal exchange of goods for money, it has it's time and place, and I won't be giving away my investment portfolio any time soon to chase the simple life, even the author admits it's not practical in society as it is today, rather it is an ideal to strive for.

7Wannabe5
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Excellent link. Definitely a systems-thinker, and he repeatedly makes clear that his choices/experiences are not for everybody in every current situation. His own economic ideal is not just money-less, but 100% local and gift-based. I found this bit particularly amusing.
Bartering, as a social tool, is most valuable when done informally and without exact accounting (money is the ultimate form of exact accounting), like you offering me some of your glut of courgettes in exchange for sex. That has unfortunately never happened to me, I must add.

Dragline
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by Dragline »

People selling one-time transactional sex seldom accept foodstuffs.

OTOH, the gift economy for sex works much differently.

Barter. "You keep saying that word. I don't think that word means what you think it means."

Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more . . . :lol:

I am reminded of this timeless rhyme: "She offered her honor, he honored her offer, and all night long it was on her and off her."

7Wannabe5
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Dragline: lol

Seriously, I was struck by how the author of this manifesto came to some of the same odd observations and conclusions that I have in some of my very-short attempts or experiments to do without money at all and/or be a locavore. For instance, in the section on "Home", he writes that dealing with the Planning Board will likely be a serious hurdle, and that is exactly where I am currently stuck in my lifestyle design. I spent a half-hour chatting with the zoning commissioner and the administrative assistant at city hall just a few days ago. So, some of the suggestions in the manifesto were helpful.

The manifesto is worth reading just for his take on creation of POP (Progression of Principles) Model, which is akin to Wheaton Levels.
First, let’s look at my POP model for ‘economic systems’.

Level 1 (100% local gift economy):
Complete co-sufficiency on a gift economy basis.
Level 2: Co-sufficiency on a local currency/barter basis within a fully localised economy.
Level 3: Gift economies existing with minimal dependency on the dominate economic model.
Level 4: LETS, Timebanks and local currencies existing with minimal dependency on the dominant economic model.
Level 5: A ‘greener’ globalised monetary economy.
Level 6 (100% global monetary economy): A globalised monetary economy.

For another example, lets look at the category we’ll call ‘Transport’.

Level 1 (100% local gift economy): Walking barefoot, connecting with the earth beneath my feet.
Level 2: Walking in shoes I made myself (or were unconditionally gifted to me) from local materials.
Level 3: Walking in shoes I bartered for, which were made from local materials.
Level 4: Walking in trainers made in a Chinese factory.
Level 5: Cycling on an industrial scale bicycle.
Level 6: (100% global monetary economy): Driving a hybrid car.
So, the Moneyless Man currently maintains a lifestyle which cycles between Level 5 and Level 1 with Level 1 as his ideal. I sometimes describe myself as neo-primitive, so I liked that he communicated that his ideal is based on his personal pleasure found during his experiments in "going wild" and the modern science of ecology, not abstract "noble savage" philosophy.

Anyways, one thing that quickly becomes apparent to any pioneer, pilgrim or perma-culturist is that the other human beings wandering freely within the boundaries of your range, or made welcome within the boundaries of your domain, are likely to be your number one resource towards surviving and thriving. I am sure I have related this anecdote elsewhere, but two years ago when I first started working on my garden project, a middle-aged recently-immigrated man approached and attempted conversation regarding my intentions. I said something like "Just a hobby.", and he smiled and said "I make hobby with you?" Since then I have received a bicycle, a hauling trailer, use of a truck, use of a car, 2 pairs of boots, one pair of shoes, and one pair of sandals as unconditional gifts from men in my acquaintance. IOW, you are correct in your implication that I do not engage in outright barter for sex, even though I do say terrible things to my BF along the lines of "I consider my sexuality to be an asset somewhat analogous to owning a charming vacation rental property which it is a shame and a waste to let remain unoccupied for very long, even though maintenance expenses are quickly overtaking profits at this juncture." I think the Moneyless Man would grok that by exposing and destroying the artificial divide between the slim margin of what is left of the gift economy in our culture and everything else that is stamped with a price on the market, I am attempting to point the way up the scale.

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jennypenny
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by jennypenny »

Here is a recent interview with Mark Boyle about his new book, The Way Home: Tales from a Life Without Technology. They discuss giving up technology as well as some more ERE-related topics, like how living the kind of life that Boyle does prepares you for potential SHTF scenarios (whether global or personal).

Yuval Harari and Jared Diamond also touch on the subject of technology towards the beginning of this discussion ... https://youtu.be/VLXHnGVp7ZU

It was interesting timing for me because after I watched the Boyle video, family and health issues forced me into an internet diet for a spell. Boyle seems to thrive unplugged, but I have mixed feelings about it.

First the good … the internet is a time suck even when one is being careful and deliberate about usage. It’s almost like window shopping — if you don’t go shopping, you don’t know something exists and therefore can’t covet it or obsess over it. If I don't surf the net, I don't know what I'm missing. Another problem is that once I see something, I might let it consume part of my day thinking about it (that lingering internet-induced intrusion into my thoughts after I’ve logged off is time I hadn’t accounted for before). Taking a break gives you an incredible amount of time back. It also gives your eyes a break if screen time affects them. And, of course, you miss out on all of the stupid rhetoric that masquerades as politics these days, avoiding unnecessary stress and wasted time thinking about issues that ultimately don’t matter (to you).

Now the bad … the internet is how I communicate with people and those relationships suffer when I’m offline. I wish I had a strong group of local people to fill that void but I don’t. (I don't even want one tbh. I'm happy with my introversion and homebody lifestyle.) And this time of year when the weather is bad, technology is usually the only way I interact with people. My mental health definitely deteriorates when I’m not engaged. I also derive a lot of intellectual stimulation from the web, whether through forums like this, blog posts, or videos. I can read on my own (and have read a lot recently) but that isn’t a substitute for discussion of the ideas gleaned from my reading. It’s also the best source of recommendations for reading material. And despite the plethora of bullshit that clutters the interwebs now, it's also still the best place to find intriguing, provocative content that either hasn't made it into mainstream literature or is best presented in a non-traditional format, like some of those comics that have been posted here or RSA videos, just to name a couple.

Anyway, I have a new-found respect for the positive contributions of being connected through technology. I will still be careful to avoid rabbit holes and time wasting, but that’s no different than avoiding those things in my ‘real’ life too. Curating one’s life is important regardless of the content/source.

ertyu
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by ertyu »

technology is essential if you're a weirdo living in a small town or in a traditional country without many weirdos, let alone weirdos of your particular variety. I'm not sure I'd be able to survive my current life and job without it - and I wouldn't be able to survive post-retirement life in a small town in my home country without it either.

I get the arguments against - Jung, for instance, lived in a stone house not just without technology but without electricity. There's the Cal Newport no-tech subtype, there's the surveillance capitalism no-tech subtype, and I understand it - I just deliberately scrambled the various interlinked apps and deleted saved info on my address/connected bank cards because that shit is EVIL when it comes to getting you to order pizza delivered despite your best intentions. I deleted my uber, etc., and it has been a pain in the butt but with all the changes I've made, I've cut my bullshit spending by about half.

I still don't think I could do without the online weirdos.

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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by jacob »

I watched the entire video (which @jp knows is a rare thing for me). I hadn't realized he had finished another book. The no electricity/technology house seems like a natural evolution of the no money project. I'm guessing the transition from one to the other wasn't too hard. I'd like to at least try the no-electrics approach. It should be easier to pull off in the US since technically I could just buy a [cheap] hunting cabin and move into that. I don't think DW would be entirely opposed to at least trying it.

Except for exchanging electric lights with candles (I suppose that's the way to go) then my experiences pre-1987 don't seem too far removed from this ideal. Of course I was a child who took things like heating and clothes washing for granted, so my opinion might change if I had to spend a substantial amount daily chopping wood and washing clothes. Insofar Boyle's setup is sustainable (lasts a few decades ... ) I would definitely call it a Wheaton8 level since it does seem have taken everything into concern (e.g. wants for nothing).

I grew up as a weirdo in a small village in a country without too many weirdos. I do consider having been able to get online and find other like-minded people around the planet a major boon for my life-quality. However, this connection could be obtained in a rather lowtech way. Before social media, one could join usenet or fidonet that relied on asynchronous transfers. You'd log on and get the day's (or week's) messages and then you'd compose answers and send that in; this would then be downloaded by the rest the day after. It was much like an uncurated letters-to-the-editor thing.

The quality of the conversation was thus correspondingly higher. (I'm trying to keep the ERE forums as much in the spirit of those times as possible.) What was more difficult back then was finding one's tribe and even knowing that such a tribe possible existed. But once found, it was good. However, it would exclude people not born into a vicinity of an existing network (unknown-unknowns). In that sense, the internet is a global village.

A network of weirdos could be implemented in a low tech way. Some technology would allow for data mules like https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2015/10 ... ernet.html ... It would even be possible to do this with pen and paper (and a printing press for copying). Possibly the art of correspondence (now mostly replaced with emojis and snapchat pictures on facebook) would be revived.

George the original one
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by George the original one »

jacob wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:14 pm
A network of weirdos could be implemented in a low tech way. Some technology would allow for data mules like https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2015/10 ... ernet.html ... It would even be possible to do this with pen and paper (and a printing press for copying). Possibly the art of correspondence (now mostly replaced with emojis and snapchat pictures on facebook) would be revived.
Back in the old days (1970s), fanzines & newsletters were the way "clubs" such as ERE existed. You'd subscribe for a fee that covered postage and copying expenses. Send in your articles, etc., to a central address and a month later the cumulative results were mailed out to all the subscribers. A popular D&D zine was several hundred pages and an obscure computer build that had published in Wireless World was 6 pages.

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jennypenny
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by jennypenny »

I should have been more clear. I could go without electricity for the most part and not miss it. It's the connective technology that I would miss.

I guess a compromise would be to allow power for, say, one day per week. That would allow for business transactions and bill paying, corresponding with friends, and clothes washing or other tasks that are annoying to DIY. I could live with that kind of arrangement.

7Wannabe5
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I think Greer made the point that the best use of electricity is for information, inclusive of the information imparted by electric lighting revealing words on a page or vandals approaching your cabin. The amount of electricity necessary for strict use for information only is very minimal and easily provided by small solar set-up. In fact, I think it could even be approached through Primitive Technology* methods. Using electricity to move stuff or heat stuff is much more "expensive."

Anyways, I vote for some combination of homing pigeons, pinhole cameras, and giant blackboard for low technology future forum :lol:


*I very much want to see the episode where he constructs a Victrola from absolute scratch.

theanimal
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by theanimal »

I like the one day a week model. That's not far from what I did most of the time when I lived at the cabin. I'd go in to use internet about once a week or so and use the internet for about an hour. My usage would be so much more focused. I'd compile of things to look up or do throughout the week then spent most of the time getting those done and saved any interesting articles for reading at a later time.

I don't think I'd go back to washing laundry by hand. That sucks. Maybe it'd be different if I had better access to water.

The main thing holding me back is my chest freezer. I'm able to source a large portion of my food now as fish and occasionally meat. Freezing is the easiest option. But I could go for the traditional ways and dry/can a larger portion of it. We'll see.

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