Financial Secrets of the Amish

[jennypenny]

I like the term 'bone-deep thrift' she used to describe their frugality.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-fi ... 2014-05-06

Here's an old article I bookmarked on how the Amish adopt new technologies...
http://kk.org/thetechnium/2009/02/amish-hackers-a/

[workathome]

14 kids moves your poverty level up to $64,450.00.

[Dragline]

That marketwatch article reminded me of the observation/study in that John Haidt book ("The Righteous Mind") we talked about in another thread, which was that religious-based communes tend to survive much longer than secular ones. The "master variable" was the number of sacrifices the commune demanded from its members. For the religious communes, there was a linear relationship between the level of sacrifice and the years the commune survived. But for the secular ones, there was no correlation and most of them failed within eight years.

Haidt quoted an anthropologist and argued that the value -- here, frugality -- had to be vested with some sort of sanctity/sacredness or at least something beyond mere rationality to make it stick.

[workathome]

It seems very logical that "self-sacrifice" correlates directly to community strength, just like a family. However, the "self-sacrifice" may not be a sacrifice depending on your goal, e.g. those who oppose ERE based on the idea that it's too much of a "sacrifice," whereas members view it as beneficial and more intelligent strategy and the sacrifices are actually free-ing benefits.

The idea of not owning a car (and avoiding the taxes, maintenance, insurance, etc.) so as to avoid the costs and being tied-down to the grid, but happily renting transportation at cheaper group rates, or choosing to bicycle instead, is a central ERE idea.

[Dragline]

I agree -- the word "sacrifice" was the work Haidt used, or the person he was referencing. I think it was intended to convey a choice to abstain from something or some community-benefiting activity for the most part.

Something neutral like "mode of behavior" would be a more apt and less loaded term.

[Chad]

It also seems likely that the "self-sacrifice" means control. As someone who grew up around the Amish, the elders control those groups with an iron fist.

[workathome]

Some of my relatives would be much better off with a little benevelont control. Their lives are ongoing train-wrecks. Or even society at large, where the default choices are often bad for the individual.

[Chad]

Scares me what you think is benevolent.

[Dragline]

This movie is an excellent exploration of the "darker side" of the Amish: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0293088/

Highly recommended. You can watch it on Hulu: http://www.hulu.com/watch/359598

[workathome]

Scares me what you think is benevolent.

You'd be more scared to see how my relatives live

[Ego]

I love the quote regarding healthy food, "They're so far behind, they're ahead."

[jennypenny]

I read the book during my free hour on my nook at B&N yesterday. Save your pennies and skip it. There is very little about the Amish in the book except for frugal examples that could have come from any culture. It's just a book of frugal tips that's overflowing with trite examples and buzzwords like latte factor, use it up wear it out..., reduce reuse recycle, avoid debt, etc. She even includes the marshmallow experiment.

It's disappointing because the first chapter sounded so promising. She touched on what she called the 'upside-down' values of the Amish. Their lifestyle is "an inverted lifestyle of thrift, self-control, carefulness, sharing, and community, It's a curious prosperity, a rootedness, simplicity, and a step back to quaint money values that go way beyond debt-free living" according to Craker. Unfortunately, she never digs into why that is. She spends the rest of the book talking about their habits instead of their values. A missed opportunity.

One nugget I did take from it is when she talked about how spoiled kids are today. (which is the parents' fault, not the kids, but I digress...) She said the one thing the Amish have that most Englischers don't is that they have the community to back them up. (meaning in their lifestyle choices) It ties in to another article making the rounds right now from Ryan Howell's work at beyondthepurchase.org that talks about how where you live affects your values and spending. I suppose it also ties in to Dr. Coles' work talking about how the people we spend time with affects who we are on a very deep level.

I find the idea unsettling, though. On one hand, I understand the concept completely. It's why I love the forum so much. It's where I feel 'normal.' OTOH, walling yourself off from the world isn't a good idea either. It reminds me of the old problem of learning to be 'in the world, but not of the world.' It's a balancing act that I find difficult.

[JohnnyH]

Mennonite business prowess is legitimately incredible... Out of dozens I know of all seem to thrive during booms and busts.

Stick to what they know. Don't "hire" anyone (ie: pay no wages because they have surplus of available Mennonite labor). Use base materials to create something of value. Work circles around 99.99-99.999% of the Earth's population.

[Chad]

One nugget I did take from it is when she talked about how spoiled kids are today. (which is the parents' fault, not the kids, but I digress...) She said the one thing the Amish have that most Englischers don't is that they have the community to back them up. (meaning in their lifestyle choices)

This is true, but there is a major caveat with this...they don't really get different lifestyle choices. The men can basically be farmers and work in sawmills. The women can be housewives and that's it (and they don't get much say in how they do that job). It's easy for a community to have your back when you there really aren't any differences in the community.

[Chad]

Mennonite business prowess is legitimately incredible... Out of dozens I know of all seem to thrive during booms and busts.

There business prowess is really just frugalness. They aren't any better at business than anyone else. I would actually say they are worse because they don't take much risk. I'm not suggesting everyone in business needs to take a lot of risk, but if you don't have at least a small percentage taking risk you don't move forward.

Stick to what they know. Don't "hire" anyone (ie: pay no wages because they have surplus of available Mennonite labor). Use base materials to create something of value. Work circles around 99.99-99.999% of the Earth's population.

You need to live by more of them. They are like everyone else. Some are more lazy than others.

[JohnnyH]

There business prowess is really just frugalness. They aren't any better at business than anyone else.

>90% 5 year business survivability rate suggests they are better than everyone else. Much better... Why risk when you can pay cash? These businesses aren't ones likely for exponential growth so what would really be gained with more risk?

You need to live by more of them. They are like everyone else. Some are more lazy than others.

I don't think so. My state has many and I've even lived next door to some (they were successful small business owners as well)... I suppose my most of my contact was with the business owners but if there is a lazy Mennonite I have never seen one. I am constantly impressed by their work ethic. Sunday is the only day I can outwork one.

http://philebersole.files.wordpress.com ... onite1.gif

This is true, but there is a major caveat with this...they don't really get different lifestyle choices. The men can basically be farmers and work in sawmills. The women can be housewives and that's it (and they don't get much say in how they do that job). It's easy for a community to have your back when you there really aren't any differences in the community.

Here are the Mennonite businesses that I know of/have patronized: roofing, wood refinishing, butcher, coffee shop, carpentry, stain glass, restaurant... Women work in most of these businesses as well.

[Chad]

>90% 5 year business survivability rate suggests they are better than everyone else.

I would suggest it means they don't need to make much to live on.

Much better... Why risk when you can pay cash? These businesses aren't ones likely for exponential growth so what would really be gained with more risk?

I agree they shouldn't risk more on the businesses they do. I'm suggesting that we don't, as a society and as humans, do anything cool without risk. I find their lifestyle just as unfulfilling as a cubicle dweller.

[JohnnyH]

Nothing cool without risk? Come on, doing anything well is cool.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you don't know any Mennonites and don't know much about their lifestyle... Seriously, they are some smart, interesting people that would fit right in and carry any conversation at an ERE meet.

I would suggest it means they don't need to make much to live on.

I think that is mostly irrelevant; either the business is profitable or it isn't.

[Ego]

I wonder how much of their success is due to a lack of distractions. They seem to have eliminated all of the things we Englischers would call pass-times. Have they (and we) reached a point where the overall costs of eschewing most technologies are less than the benefits?

[theanimal]

@JennyPenny Have you read the book Better Off: Fliipping the Switch on Technology by Eric Brende?
http://www.amazon.com/Better-Off-Flippi ... 0060570059

A young couple goes to live in an Amish community and explores the values/changes of their new lifestyle and community. I read it a while ago but this may be what you are looking for.

The amish have some great values and practices, but when anyone mentions amish, I can't help but think of the Amish Mafia http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/amish-mafia