You are the average of the five people you spend the most...

Your favorite books and links
jennypenny
Posts: 6213
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
Location: Stepford USA

Re: You are the average of the five people you spend the most...

Post by jennypenny » Sat May 04, 2019 4:54 pm

Personally, I consider changes to gene expression to be physical. I don't consider the evolution of personality/role of self to be physical in the same way. Part of my opinion comes from the fact that epigenetic changes are quantifiable in a way that personality changes aren't. I suppose all mental health is ultimately physical, and maybe it will be proven that there are physical aspects to Kegan-related growth and development, but until then I see them as different (natural vs. social science).

Also, there have been changes to expression shown in the grandchildren of people studied, so even though it doesn't alter the DNA sequence, epigenetic expression has been shown to be heritable.

We can agree to disagree. :)

daylen
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am

Re: You are the average of the five people you spend the most...

Post by daylen » Sat May 04, 2019 5:09 pm

I don't disagree with that view. There are differences in statistical validity, but I find that constructing specialized languages to talk about these things isolates people and promotes authority. Authority has its place, but I feel that it is often harmful to a society of this scale and connectivity.

I thought heritability was part of the definition of epigenetics. That is why I included the word "linage" above. The development must be measured with respect to a "norm", and the proximate lineage is a solid choice.

User avatar
Ego
Posts: 4169
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:42 am

Re: You are the average of the five people you spend the most...

Post by Ego » Sun May 05, 2019 12:14 am

daylen wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 5:09 pm
...but I find that constructing specialized languages to talk about these things isolates people and promotes authority.
The word 'gene' has been in use for a little more than a hundred years. Lineage has been used for more than six-hundred years and refers to decendancy from a common progenitor.

Newly discovered phenomena requires new language for precision and to avoid the baggage that comes with old terms. Which language do you find objectionable and why?

daylen
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am

Re: You are the average of the five people you spend the most...

Post by daylen » Sun May 05, 2019 3:47 am

I do not find any of the words objectionable in all contexts. The way the word "epigenetics" has been used in this context(*) has equated it with phenotype, or at least it has made the meaning ambiguous enough to confused as such from my perspective.

(*) ".. it specifically deals with epigenetics and to what degree it determines human culture." .. "..features of your environment such as diet, stress and poverty." .. "If those things are culturally transmitted, those effects on evolution are going to be longer term. Simple notions of the ways in which traits are formed are going to be thrown out the window."

My above post was an attempt to justify why I was here playing this game. I try to focus more on how language is used (the logic) as opposed to the precise classification being used, and this thread fired off many alarms for vague language use. So, I thought that it may be helpful to utilize the context to connect seemingly disparate thoughts that are typically considered in isolation.

Language is often tricky..

Genetic definition: "A genetic lineage is a series of mutations which connect an ancestral genetic type (allele, haplotype, or haplogroup) to derivative type."

daylen
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am

Re: You are the average of the five people you spend the most...

Post by daylen » Sun May 05, 2019 4:10 am

My views are biased based on the following:

1. Epigenetics is looking at how the "environment" affects specific biological mechanisms.

2. The "environment" could mean anything.

3. Emergence of behavior at scale is never accounted for mechanically or "physically".

4. Humans (even researchers) are susceptible to statistical sampling errors and do not publish all their work.

5. Chaos

7Wannabe5
Posts: 4950
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: You are the average of the five people you spend the most...

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sun May 05, 2019 4:51 pm

...you might be shocked to discover just how much skepticism there is in scientific circles about transgenerational epigenetic inheritance...
While it's true that the methylation pattern in cells can change during people's lifetimes, it's not at all clear that those changes can be inherited.

The trouble with this hypothesis is that it doesn't fit what we know about fertilization. A sperm carries its own payload of DNA, which has its own distinct epigenome as well. For example, sperm have to tightly wind their DNA in order to fit it inside their tiny confines. During fertilization, the sperm's genes enter the egg, where they encounter proteins that attack the father's epigenome. As the embryo starts to grow, the epigenetic drama continues. The totipotent cells strip away much of the remaining methylation on their DNA. And then they reverse course and start putting a fresh batch of methyl groups back on.

This new methylation helps cells in an embryo take on new identities. Some cells commit to becoming the placenta. Others start giving rise to the three germ layers. And when the embryo is around three weeks old, a tiny wedge of cells receives a set of signals that tell them that they have been picked for immortality. They will become germ cells. The newly formed primordial germ cells alter their epigenome yet again. They strip of much of the methylation from their DNA.

Many scientists doubt that inherited epigenetic marks can survive all of this stripping and resetting. If heredity is a kind of memory, methylation suffers radical amnesia in every genertion.
- "She Has Her Mother's Laugh: The Powers, Perversions, and Potential of Heredity." - Carl Zimmer


http://www.wiringthebrain.com/2018/05/g ... al-of.html
jennypenny wrote:I would think that five great-yet-diverse influencers would be better than five great-but-almost-exactly-the-same influencers. No proof, just a hunch.
I agree. However, I would also note that in groups as small as two individuals, and certainly in those as large as 5, in addition to the tendency to become more alike, there is the tendency to assume complementary or contrasting roles which need not apply in other contexts. Simple examples would be never becoming very good at handling money, because your spouse always handled that task, or reverting to babyish behavior when you find yourself back in context of youngest in sibling group. This is one of the most interesting things I learned in therapy; modeling preferred behavior is often much less effective than creating an attractive vacuum for the behavior you prefer.

Clarice
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:45 pm
Location: California

Re: You are the average of the five people you spend the most...

Post by Clarice » Sun May 05, 2019 7:29 pm

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 4:51 pm
reverting to babyish behavior when you find yourself back in context of youngest in sibling group. This is one of the most interesting things I learned in therapy; modeling preferred behavior is often much less effective than creating an attractive vacuum for the behavior you prefer.
+1
Lately, I've realized with some dismay, that my strong dislike of my SIL partially has nothing do with her. In her presence, I am treated to a weird show: a strange woman with her idiot baby brother. Where's my husband? I swear he was there just 5 minutes ago. :lol: :lol: :lol:

7Wannabe5
Posts: 4950
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: You are the average of the five people you spend the most...

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sun May 05, 2019 8:15 pm

@Clarice:

I suppose you could behave in an attractive- version of super dumb blonde baby manner the next time you are around the two of them and see if your husband's head explodes trying to fulfill both roles at the same time. Doing this would also take you out of competitive realm with SIL.

Post Reply