http://thomaslauer.com/start/INTJs
INTJ insights
-
Spartan_Warrior
- Posts: 1659
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:24 am
I've never seen people take things like MBTI so seriously as this community. Though I must admit, it is a strange coincidence that so many of us test out as INTJs (myself included). I see a lot of myself in the INTJ description. But it's also easy to see yourself in a horoscope, so I don't know.
On another note... anyone else notice a similarity between the characteristics of INTJs and those of schizoid personality type? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_p ... y_disorder) LOL
I do have to say, INTJ sounds a bit better than schizoid. (Of course, why can't it be both?)
On another note... anyone else notice a similarity between the characteristics of INTJs and those of schizoid personality type? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_p ... y_disorder) LOL
I do have to say, INTJ sounds a bit better than schizoid. (Of course, why can't it be both?)
I like this quote from the schizoid link: "People in majorities tend to assume that their own psychology is normative and to equate difference with inferiority"
That quote especially applies to extraversion. I hear the following too frequently: "Oh, I was shy and introverted (like you) when I was younger, but I grew out of it and became more confident and extraverted..."
That quote especially applies to extraversion. I hear the following too frequently: "Oh, I was shy and introverted (like you) when I was younger, but I grew out of it and became more confident and extraverted..."
I (INTj) shared the How to Handle an INTJ link with my girlfriend (intJ) and we both found different parts applying to us.
Her: #2, #12, #5
Me: #4, #6, #7, #10, #11, #17, #18, #19
Both: #16, #15, #9, #1
The only part of the list that I think is off target for myself and my INTJ friends is the sarcasm bit. There are some sarcastic INTJs, but I certainly don't think most INTJs are sarcastic. Mostly just JasonR and this guy.
Her: #2, #12, #5
Me: #4, #6, #7, #10, #11, #17, #18, #19
Both: #16, #15, #9, #1
The only part of the list that I think is off target for myself and my INTJ friends is the sarcasm bit. There are some sarcastic INTJs, but I certainly don't think most INTJs are sarcastic. Mostly just JasonR and this guy.
For me much of this is accurate but a few items are off the mark. Of course, the personality types are ends of wide continua.
The arrogance part is counterintuitive. I have been "socialized" enough where I know that my views are my own and not anybody else's. If I am at work it would hurt my long term interests to be militant about the differences between views. A typical INTJ I believe would point out the differences and walk away before a conflict arises. A typical INTJ is also rational enough where he would not pick an argument with his boss, a key customer, or a coworker with whom he will need to work productively. Conflict often leads to inefficiencies.
The sarcasm part, I don't know about. I have an ok sense of humor but I am aware that sarcasm generally does not communicate the differences effectively. Again, a major inefficiency where the differences should rather be explained in plain manner rather than humor that can be misunderstood.
The introversion part is right on the money. I know socializing drains the life out of me. Extraverts have the benefit of being better salespeople, discovering opportunities, etc, but for me it is almost a physical impediment.
Just my take on these.
The arrogance part is counterintuitive. I have been "socialized" enough where I know that my views are my own and not anybody else's. If I am at work it would hurt my long term interests to be militant about the differences between views. A typical INTJ I believe would point out the differences and walk away before a conflict arises. A typical INTJ is also rational enough where he would not pick an argument with his boss, a key customer, or a coworker with whom he will need to work productively. Conflict often leads to inefficiencies.
The sarcasm part, I don't know about. I have an ok sense of humor but I am aware that sarcasm generally does not communicate the differences effectively. Again, a major inefficiency where the differences should rather be explained in plain manner rather than humor that can be misunderstood.
The introversion part is right on the money. I know socializing drains the life out of me. Extraverts have the benefit of being better salespeople, discovering opportunities, etc, but for me it is almost a physical impediment.
Just my take on these.
-
aussierogue
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:02 pm
the schizoid thing is interesting - thanks for the link. there are some obvious similarities i can relate too except the bit about having an equally vivid internal imagination, life etc.
i am internal but i dont live in a fantasy land like a schitzoid would. I am internal in a rational way but i do not revert to imaginary friends, think i amhenry the 8th, or speak to ghosts.
what i thought was also interesting is the flack the AMA get as this label is typical of the association trying to 'give a medical psychologocal illness" to anyone who is not sociable. As Akratic points out the "cult of majority" can mean that slipghly different people are marginalised as wierd. This imo leeds to irrational conformity and that is a bad thing.
Conformity for the sake of it is very dehumanising. Works well in the military, sporting teams and many business's but many people just dont fit this mould.
i am internal but i dont live in a fantasy land like a schitzoid would. I am internal in a rational way but i do not revert to imaginary friends, think i amhenry the 8th, or speak to ghosts.
what i thought was also interesting is the flack the AMA get as this label is typical of the association trying to 'give a medical psychologocal illness" to anyone who is not sociable. As Akratic points out the "cult of majority" can mean that slipghly different people are marginalised as wierd. This imo leeds to irrational conformity and that is a bad thing.
Conformity for the sake of it is very dehumanising. Works well in the military, sporting teams and many business's but many people just dont fit this mould.
One of the biggest changes for me lay simply in realizing that I didn't have some freakish personality, and that other people got exhausted from socializing too. For some reason, it took me 20 years to discover this.
Extroverts so dominate populated discourse that I think those of us who are introverted can end up feeling as though we have some personality disorder. Like, why wouldn't I want to hang out at a bar? Why wouldn't I want to constantly be with friends?
I understand this: inverts aren't the most exciting people. You can't make a 5 second video clip of an introvert being extreme reading a book. It is what it is.
I think this explains why INTJ/MBTI talk so dominates this community. It's small enough that people are willing to open up, and Jacob's writing about ERE is not very extrovert-friendly. So there's a pre-existing filter and culture that tends towards introversion. I like it
.
Extroverts so dominate populated discourse that I think those of us who are introverted can end up feeling as though we have some personality disorder. Like, why wouldn't I want to hang out at a bar? Why wouldn't I want to constantly be with friends?
I understand this: inverts aren't the most exciting people. You can't make a 5 second video clip of an introvert being extreme reading a book. It is what it is.
I think this explains why INTJ/MBTI talk so dominates this community. It's small enough that people are willing to open up, and Jacob's writing about ERE is not very extrovert-friendly. So there's a pre-existing filter and culture that tends towards introversion. I like it
.-
jacob
- Site Admin
- Posts: 15997
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
- Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
- Contact:
The arrogance part enters because INTJs naturally behave/seem/exhibits almost surely the most confidence of any type. Being arrogant is showing more confidence than one should. Since the INTJ shows the most AND because a great many people are projecting their preferences/judging others according to their own values, INTJs are seen arrogant. QED.
Corollary: Apparently, then, most people are less confident in their behavior than your standard INTJ.
It's inevitable due to the way the INTJ brain works in knowing what it knows and what it doesn't. All these internally consistent systems.
The appearance of smugness is very closely related to the perception of arrogance.
INTJ: "I've designed a system that works pretty well and I'm happy about it."
Other person #1: "You sound arrogant to me."
Other person #2: "You sound smug to me."
====
What's frustrating, of course, is that we are anything but arrogant having in fact a very accurate idea of exactly how confident we are in a given position.
The smugness, I think, is more subtle and has to do whether one is socially allowed to be "confidently happy"---kinda like stoically happy/pleased. The social answer is no! This culture is built on hedonism and one is only allowed to be happy in that way.
Corollary: Apparently, then, most people are less confident in their behavior than your standard INTJ.
It's inevitable due to the way the INTJ brain works in knowing what it knows and what it doesn't. All these internally consistent systems.
The appearance of smugness is very closely related to the perception of arrogance.
INTJ: "I've designed a system that works pretty well and I'm happy about it."
Other person #1: "You sound arrogant to me."
Other person #2: "You sound smug to me."
====
What's frustrating, of course, is that we are anything but arrogant having in fact a very accurate idea of exactly how confident we are in a given position.
The smugness, I think, is more subtle and has to do whether one is socially allowed to be "confidently happy"---kinda like stoically happy/pleased. The social answer is no! This culture is built on hedonism and one is only allowed to be happy in that way.
-
Grandmother
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:44 am
I love this INTJ stuff. I've been a bit of an outsider all my life and for most of it felt I had something wrong with me. It is nice to be comfortable with myself now. I particularly liked this quote: " Literally all the time: an INTJ's brain is a giant pattern-matching machine that works round the clock." Yep, that's me. And the bit about not being impressed with the views of an authority just because they are the authority.
My husband thinks its funny that I'm so sure of myself about some things. He learned never to argue with me as I was usually right if I was prepared to be argumentative about whatever topic we were discussing. My ex-boss learned that if I was prepared to go out on a limb about something it would be on the basis of good evidence.
I'm only sorry that I didn't go down the ERE route 40 years ago. Back then I was desperately trying to fit into society, but very unsuccessfully. Its getting late now I'm over 60 but I probably will live for another 40 years, so what's another 10 putting our finances in order.
I have a ten year old grandson whom I'm almost certain is an INTJ. I'm finding some times and places to talk about this stuff with him and his sister. He is already a saver.
My husband thinks its funny that I'm so sure of myself about some things. He learned never to argue with me as I was usually right if I was prepared to be argumentative about whatever topic we were discussing. My ex-boss learned that if I was prepared to go out on a limb about something it would be on the basis of good evidence.
I'm only sorry that I didn't go down the ERE route 40 years ago. Back then I was desperately trying to fit into society, but very unsuccessfully. Its getting late now I'm over 60 but I probably will live for another 40 years, so what's another 10 putting our finances in order.
I have a ten year old grandson whom I'm almost certain is an INTJ. I'm finding some times and places to talk about this stuff with him and his sister. He is already a saver.
-
Spartan_Warrior
- Posts: 1659
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:24 am
"Literally all the time: an INTJ's brain is a giant pattern-matching machine that works round the clock."
This is actually the kind of thing I meant about the "horoscope factor". I mean, isn't that basically a vague definition of the human brain itself?
I tend to be skeptical of the "soft" science in psychology in general. Tying somewhat into @akratic's quote from the schizoid page on psychology's tendency to categorize/pathologize the human spectrum of behaviors--there's a movement in psychology called "anti-psychotherapy" or "anti-psychiatry" (See Thomas Szasz: http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Psychotherap ... 0815602235 and http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Mental-Illne ... 147&sr=1-1) that asserts that all psychological illness is more or less the result of our own labeling--that we self-ascribe these labels and then rearrange our own perspectives of our behaviors so the behaviors fit the label and the label becomes self-fulfilling.
Then again, maybe this is just the INTJ in me constantly applying the "does it work" test?
"I have a ten year old grandson whom I'm almost certain is an INTJ. I'm finding some times and places to talk about this stuff with him and his sister. He is already a saver."
This interests me. There is certainly a strong correlation of INTJ types here, but is frugality widely accepted as an INTJ-related trait? I haven't seen any mention of this aspect.
For my part, I was a "natural saver" as far back as I can remember.
This is actually the kind of thing I meant about the "horoscope factor". I mean, isn't that basically a vague definition of the human brain itself?
I tend to be skeptical of the "soft" science in psychology in general. Tying somewhat into @akratic's quote from the schizoid page on psychology's tendency to categorize/pathologize the human spectrum of behaviors--there's a movement in psychology called "anti-psychotherapy" or "anti-psychiatry" (See Thomas Szasz: http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Psychotherap ... 0815602235 and http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Mental-Illne ... 147&sr=1-1) that asserts that all psychological illness is more or less the result of our own labeling--that we self-ascribe these labels and then rearrange our own perspectives of our behaviors so the behaviors fit the label and the label becomes self-fulfilling.
Then again, maybe this is just the INTJ in me constantly applying the "does it work" test?
"I have a ten year old grandson whom I'm almost certain is an INTJ. I'm finding some times and places to talk about this stuff with him and his sister. He is already a saver."
This interests me. There is certainly a strong correlation of INTJ types here, but is frugality widely accepted as an INTJ-related trait? I haven't seen any mention of this aspect.
For my part, I was a "natural saver" as far back as I can remember.
-
flitteringleaves
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:56 am
I have always sort of shared Spartan_Warrior's skepticism, but I must admit that the descriptions often seem so accurate. And it's reasonable that certain personality tendencies would often be correlated.
As for "Literally all the time: an INTJ's brain is a giant pattern-matching machine that works round the clock." Since we can really only know about how our minds work and cannot be really sure of how other's are thinking, it's difficult to know if this is true. However, based on how I observe others frequently not recognizing what seem to be obvious patterns, I would say that in some way or another we may be more consciously perceptive to patterns that are present.
I've always been a saver as well, but I don't think we'll get a good grasp of whether that's universally related to the INTJ personality here... The sample might be just a tad skewed.
As for "Literally all the time: an INTJ's brain is a giant pattern-matching machine that works round the clock." Since we can really only know about how our minds work and cannot be really sure of how other's are thinking, it's difficult to know if this is true. However, based on how I observe others frequently not recognizing what seem to be obvious patterns, I would say that in some way or another we may be more consciously perceptive to patterns that are present.
I've always been a saver as well, but I don't think we'll get a good grasp of whether that's universally related to the INTJ personality here... The sample might be just a tad skewed.
Yeah I'm not so sure that we take it "seriously" here in that we think MTBI is rigorous... but a lot of us identify with the descriptions (more so than I identify with my horoscope).
The "guide," however, seems like a mis-step. It seems great to us INTJs, but I think a normal person would read the guide and think the writer was simply an arrogant bastard
The "guide," however, seems like a mis-step. It seems great to us INTJs, but I think a normal person would read the guide and think the writer was simply an arrogant bastard
-
jennypenny
- Posts: 6858
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
I definitely agree that INTJ's are prone to sarcasm. Sarcasm is my favorite. However, I don't use it much online as it requires correct voice inflection and tone, which you can't do online.
I also think that INTJ's are very arrogant, but when they/we act arrogant don't bet against us. We are arrogant when we know we have the information necesary to be right.
I don't think MBTI/Kiersey is like astrology. The model doesn't suggest that INTJs will always do INTJ things. It just suggests traits that influence all of your decisions. This does not prevent INTJs from partying (done plenty myself) or speaking in front of people (done plenty myself). It however does explain why I am exhausted afterwards.
It should also be noted that there are extremes for each MBTI/Kiersey set and those that actually waffle between two similar models depending on the day.
I also think that INTJ's are very arrogant, but when they/we act arrogant don't bet against us. We are arrogant when we know we have the information necesary to be right.
I don't think MBTI/Kiersey is like astrology. The model doesn't suggest that INTJs will always do INTJ things. It just suggests traits that influence all of your decisions. This does not prevent INTJs from partying (done plenty myself) or speaking in front of people (done plenty myself). It however does explain why I am exhausted afterwards.
It should also be noted that there are extremes for each MBTI/Kiersey set and those that actually waffle between two similar models depending on the day.
I'm an INFJ, which in short means that I'm equally interested in patterns and paradigms, but I'm far more interested in the ones that relate to people and relationships than the ones related to processes and ideas.
Because I work in IT, many of my coworkers have always been INTJs. I don't see them as either arrogant or smug, but I do see many of them as (paradoxically) very illogical. A truly logical approach to life would take into account both the rational and the irrational because both exist. Some of my INTJ colleagues always discount the irrational when making decisions, and are quite predictably then taken off guard when people around them behave in less than rational ways, throwing wrenches into their finely wrought plans. I would probably be amused by it if it caused fewer hurt feelings.
Because I work in IT, many of my coworkers have always been INTJs. I don't see them as either arrogant or smug, but I do see many of them as (paradoxically) very illogical. A truly logical approach to life would take into account both the rational and the irrational because both exist. Some of my INTJ colleagues always discount the irrational when making decisions, and are quite predictably then taken off guard when people around them behave in less than rational ways, throwing wrenches into their finely wrought plans. I would probably be amused by it if it caused fewer hurt feelings.