Im not sarcastic.............MUCH!
INTJ insights
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jacob
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@TX - I've looked quite a bit into alternative explanations as well, e.g. asperberger and schizoid.
However, there's also this:
http://www.cpsimoes.net/artigos/outsiders.html
This essay discusses what happens when one's intelligence significantly exceeds the Hollingworth gap. The Hollingworth gap essentially says that communication (style, interest, form) breaks down between two persons when their IQs differ by more than two standard deviations (~30 points). I assume the effect is gradual and not cliff like.
Something similar must exist for personality types.
Hence, I think a lot of it simply has to do with what has been alluded to above, namely a minority trying to fit into a majority and simply having problems due to being outnumbered.
For example, until I started ERE I had an enormously hard time finding people I could relate to (intelligence, thinking style, interests, ...) and thus social interaction was a[n undesirable] struggle. But there's no problem relating to you guys.
I'm fairly sure the relation is symmetric [and relative]. Drop a normal person (who likes to small talk about the weather and sports and whose interests fall in the realm of celebrities and interior decorating and whose political orientation is of the "Go team!" variety) into the environment of the local chess or trivial pursuit club and watch them out of their element. It's an interesting sight.
Also see
http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
which speaks more to the lack of interest in "popularity".
There's so much personality perception/judgment that's skewed by whichever side (and we're really talking/taking sides) that's commenting.
"It is characterized by qualitative impairment in social interaction, by stereotyped and restricted patterns of behavior, activities and interests, and by no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or general delay in language. Intense preoccupation with a narrow subject, one-sided verbosity, restricted prosody, and physical clumsiness are typical of the condition, but are not required for diagnosis."
Let's flip this and describe "normal people"
"They are characterized by qualitative impairment in technical understanding, by stereotyped and restricted patterns of behavior, activities and interests (partying on weekends, watching TV, shopping, sports, ...) and by no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or general delay in language. A lack of focused interest beyond "fitting in", limited vocabulary, emotional and gesticulating communication, and inability to deal with math are typical of the condition, but are not required for diagnosis."
So there
Also found this
http://www.intjtribe.com/asperger-high- ... autism.htm
In my opinion the issue is more so sociological than it's psychological---at least, I think, for many cases.
However, there's also this:
http://www.cpsimoes.net/artigos/outsiders.html
This essay discusses what happens when one's intelligence significantly exceeds the Hollingworth gap. The Hollingworth gap essentially says that communication (style, interest, form) breaks down between two persons when their IQs differ by more than two standard deviations (~30 points). I assume the effect is gradual and not cliff like.
Something similar must exist for personality types.
Hence, I think a lot of it simply has to do with what has been alluded to above, namely a minority trying to fit into a majority and simply having problems due to being outnumbered.
For example, until I started ERE I had an enormously hard time finding people I could relate to (intelligence, thinking style, interests, ...) and thus social interaction was a[n undesirable] struggle. But there's no problem relating to you guys.
I'm fairly sure the relation is symmetric [and relative]. Drop a normal person (who likes to small talk about the weather and sports and whose interests fall in the realm of celebrities and interior decorating and whose political orientation is of the "Go team!" variety) into the environment of the local chess or trivial pursuit club and watch them out of their element. It's an interesting sight.
Also see
http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
which speaks more to the lack of interest in "popularity".
There's so much personality perception/judgment that's skewed by whichever side (and we're really talking/taking sides) that's commenting.
"It is characterized by qualitative impairment in social interaction, by stereotyped and restricted patterns of behavior, activities and interests, and by no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or general delay in language. Intense preoccupation with a narrow subject, one-sided verbosity, restricted prosody, and physical clumsiness are typical of the condition, but are not required for diagnosis."
Let's flip this and describe "normal people"
"They are characterized by qualitative impairment in technical understanding, by stereotyped and restricted patterns of behavior, activities and interests (partying on weekends, watching TV, shopping, sports, ...) and by no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or general delay in language. A lack of focused interest beyond "fitting in", limited vocabulary, emotional and gesticulating communication, and inability to deal with math are typical of the condition, but are not required for diagnosis."
So there
Also found this
http://www.intjtribe.com/asperger-high- ... autism.htm
In my opinion the issue is more so sociological than it's psychological---at least, I think, for many cases.
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aussierogue
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:02 pm
Jacob
as a fellow intj, with an iq not quite mensa (125 ish) and also as someone who runs a successful blog i think we need to be careful if we think having a 'relationship" with blog readers somehow is similar / equivalent to holding one on one real interpersonal relatipnships. I realise that the internet is a valid medium for relationships just like many others but theres a huge part of me that realises that as the owner/promoter of a blog I hold most of the cards, subtely sometimes, overtly sometime - but i do. So its not a true one on one healthy type relationship.
So yes - these are OUR PEOPle but in context...
I would gues that a MATURE intj (im working on that as not yet mastered) would try and relate with people on different levels and then get to a point where our perosnality faults become less of an issue to living a happy life (whatevver that is).
cheers
aussie
as a fellow intj, with an iq not quite mensa (125 ish) and also as someone who runs a successful blog i think we need to be careful if we think having a 'relationship" with blog readers somehow is similar / equivalent to holding one on one real interpersonal relatipnships. I realise that the internet is a valid medium for relationships just like many others but theres a huge part of me that realises that as the owner/promoter of a blog I hold most of the cards, subtely sometimes, overtly sometime - but i do. So its not a true one on one healthy type relationship.
So yes - these are OUR PEOPle but in context...
I would gues that a MATURE intj (im working on that as not yet mastered) would try and relate with people on different levels and then get to a point where our perosnality faults become less of an issue to living a happy life (whatevver that is).
cheers
aussie
Let's face it--- there are people all around us who just can't cope with it. These are people who step as stepping over eggs in the personality department because they are so unsure of what to say or what to do. Some would call them mentally challenged. Some would call them brain dead, and some would call them stupid, or other terms of endearment. We must be aware that this lacking of personality in some cases can be defined as no fault of the person in question. Some people have the personality of a metal door, but they think they are the chosen ones to answer all of life's questions. Or worse, they know all the answers to life's questions, but they ain't gonna tell you. Other people can be spoken to, and they just give you the same look as a white faced cow would. (They usually leave off the "moo).
I know lots of brilliant minds that are stupid in the personality department, and vice versa. Some people thought when God was handing out brains, they thought he said trains, and they took one and never looked back. Don't worry too much about people lacking common sense or character. Don't worry too much about people who know it all. Just try and avoid them at all costs. "Intellectually challenged" people are now becoming a term you hear on TV news. I heard it tonight. This term describes people who just can't hang in today's society. Life sped on but these people had their coat tails caught on a hook and did not go with it. They are the ones a "few fish short of a stringer" or "their elevator does not go all the way to the top floor".
Not everyone got the memo it seems. I need to be very focused in the compassion department. I lack that badly. There are those who (say it with me) "through no fault of their own" are a little intellectually challenged. I might be one of those myself, who knows?
I know lots of brilliant minds that are stupid in the personality department, and vice versa. Some people thought when God was handing out brains, they thought he said trains, and they took one and never looked back. Don't worry too much about people lacking common sense or character. Don't worry too much about people who know it all. Just try and avoid them at all costs. "Intellectually challenged" people are now becoming a term you hear on TV news. I heard it tonight. This term describes people who just can't hang in today's society. Life sped on but these people had their coat tails caught on a hook and did not go with it. They are the ones a "few fish short of a stringer" or "their elevator does not go all the way to the top floor".
Not everyone got the memo it seems. I need to be very focused in the compassion department. I lack that badly. There are those who (say it with me) "through no fault of their own" are a little intellectually challenged. I might be one of those myself, who knows?
(Disclosure): I am not an INTJ. I can't seem to keep remembering what I am instead, which could be because I hate acronyms.
I think reading about personalities and their character traits can help people to understand themselves, and others. Which is good. It could mean that you modify your behaviour so that the interaction with other people (one or more) is more succesfull/useful and/or so that you feel more happy and balanced.
I do not think that you should label yourself and then stick to that label forever and use it to not have to meet certain challenges. (Oh, I'm introvert, I can't do that).
Also, when we started studying the manual of psychiatric disorders (DSM) during my training, we were warned that almost everyone will recognize themselves in part of the description of more than one disorder or personality disorder. The point is, that you have to meet almost all of the criteria all of the time to make it a disorder, and that this disorder also has to block you from functioning more or less normally in our society. (get out of bed in the morning, apply personal hygiene, communicate with others, make your own living). Most of us here do function.
I think reading about personalities and their character traits can help people to understand themselves, and others. Which is good. It could mean that you modify your behaviour so that the interaction with other people (one or more) is more succesfull/useful and/or so that you feel more happy and balanced.
I do not think that you should label yourself and then stick to that label forever and use it to not have to meet certain challenges. (Oh, I'm introvert, I can't do that).
Also, when we started studying the manual of psychiatric disorders (DSM) during my training, we were warned that almost everyone will recognize themselves in part of the description of more than one disorder or personality disorder. The point is, that you have to meet almost all of the criteria all of the time to make it a disorder, and that this disorder also has to block you from functioning more or less normally in our society. (get out of bed in the morning, apply personal hygiene, communicate with others, make your own living). Most of us here do function.
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jennypenny
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@Dutchgirl--The push to label people can be fierce here, especially in the school system. They act like they are trying to do your child a favor by labeling him, but they get more money per child per label so I'm very skeptical.
And I don't trust a system that labels people who simply opt out of certain social machinations as abnormal, but labels assholes as normal as long as they are extroverted assholes.
And I don't trust a system that labels people who simply opt out of certain social machinations as abnormal, but labels assholes as normal as long as they are extroverted assholes.
A small smile: I wonder how we would describe "extroverted assholes" in the DSM system. (It's not quite the same as "sociopaths", is it?).
What I feel, somehow, is that labeling may help sometimes to understand a person and his/her behaviour better, but that it shouldn't stop people from seeing others as (complex) people (instead of simple labeled stereotypes) and from stepping outside/growing beyond their label(s). So I agree with you that it can go (waaaaay) too far...
What I feel, somehow, is that labeling may help sometimes to understand a person and his/her behaviour better, but that it shouldn't stop people from seeing others as (complex) people (instead of simple labeled stereotypes) and from stepping outside/growing beyond their label(s). So I agree with you that it can go (waaaaay) too far...
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jennypenny
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- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
It's the structure of the system that bothers me. Instead of labeling people by needs (boy, 12, needs OT, mild anxiety) we just say high-functioning Aspie or something. It becomes an identity (he's no longer a 12yo boy with needs, he's an aspie). I wish we would acknowledge that we're all on the spectrum somewhere.
I also don't like that social functions (right word?) are starting to trump intellectual functions. It's socially ok for someone to say "I'm not good at math" but someone who says "I don't like to socialize" is seen as weird.
re: sociopaths--They can be really easy to get along with so I don't think they're the same
I also don't like that social functions (right word?) are starting to trump intellectual functions. It's socially ok for someone to say "I'm not good at math" but someone who says "I don't like to socialize" is seen as weird.
re: sociopaths--They can be really easy to get along with so I don't think they're the same
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Spartan_Warrior
- Posts: 1659
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:24 am
Jacob: "For example, until I started ERE I had an enormously hard time finding people I could relate to (intelligence, thinking style, interests, ...) and thus social interaction was a[n undesirable] struggle. But there's no problem relating to you guys."
Couldn't agree more on this point. I've only been here a few weeks and I feel a level of comfort and kinship with the people here that's rare for me. I don't often encounter people who seem like they're "on my level" (or beyond) as is the case here.
Group hug! LOL
Couldn't agree more on this point. I've only been here a few weeks and I feel a level of comfort and kinship with the people here that's rare for me. I don't often encounter people who seem like they're "on my level" (or beyond) as is the case here.
Group hug! LOL
It was about how someone's friend improved his communications skills with nerds because they reminded him of that someone and he knew how to talk to them. I wanted to say ditto. Since I met my boyfriend and had some very frustrating / miscommunicating conversations with him, I've become better at communicating with other people who want facts and not my whoolly language
Sorry about the accidental delete...
Sorry about the accidental delete...
Re: INTJ insights
<trying to spark discussion in hope that my favourite internet idols will show up and say something smart, specifically if they have changed their mind with 10yrs perspective. Stahlmann Intelligence doesn't sleep 
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