"Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

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7Wannabe5
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Alphaville wrote:this is my problem also with entering intimate arrangements for profit
Well, I should note for the record that I have never entered into an intimate arrangement with financial profit as my motive. It just started happening that after my divorce I was usually dating men who were much more affluent than me, and because I have always been a frugal penny tracker, I felt compelled to document the transfers that resulted. For instance, I couldn't pat myself on the back for only spending $20/week on groceries if I was taken out for dinner three times. My primary motive for entering into intimate arrangements has almost always been sex. I am never alone long enough to feel lonely, and I usually only develop romantic feelings for men after we have sex. However, now that I am a year out of menopause, I think my baseline sexual motivation is way down, so it is very possible that I will not seek any sort of arrangements at all after I part ways with current BF/Covid-Buddy.
good savers still need to pay copays and deductibles, in merciless cutthroat america. maybe i’m misreading your posts because the information is not in one place, but it reads to me like lentil baby is your primary plan at the moment. which, i understand the current situation, but i’m not seeing a non-lentil way forward.
Well, whether or not an American can survive on 1 Jacob per year given cut-throat deductibles etc. is always up for debate, but I would note that my health care expenses for the last 5 years have averaged less than $20/month. However, I don't choose to do every rip-off thing they suggest. I had a primary care doctor who was very helpful in that regard, but unfortunately she retired last year. I also find that not having to report to 40 hour/week job provides you with more options for self-care.

As far as non-lentil way forward is concerned, I always have several pots (more or less cracked :lol: )on the fire. In fact, I have a video job interview on Monday, even though my rational calculations inform me that it is way too risky to consider in time of Covid. In terms of pure actuarial expectation with all mortal fear removed, I figure keeping holed up until vaccine is worth at least $60,000 net for me. If I break with my BF, I'll just have to spend down some savings after unemployment runs out if I can't get remote work. I should also note that I am desperately trying to avoid being the sister stuck taking care of my mother after she is released from the hospital, and staying holed up with my BF helps with that too.
i guess the conclusion that i’m drawing from this online brainstorm i’m doing right now, is that maybe you need to make something of your own with no partners or supporters so that you can develop material and psychological boundaries simultaneously? i mean, doing on purpose, for that purpose.
I think there is something to your suggestion, however my tendency is to take on partners after I already have a project up and running. I was running my business for two years solo before I took on my sister as partner, and I was working on my permaculture project for at least a year before my Permaculture Partner became involved on any level (at first he was just helping me for fun.) I usually (when not suffering from asphalt etc.) have a lot of initiative or Visionary energy, but I run out of Technician and/or Manager energy at some what-should-be-predictable juncture. My sister was an excellent partner for around 10 years until she suffered personal natural disaster of mental health functioning, and same goes for my collaboration with the Permaculture Partner. It's more down to my inability to maintain that sort of combo Technician/Manager energy I think of as being "walking the fence." I don't think this is unusual since many entrepreneurial guides suggest taking on partners as a good idea. Still, since things have not worked out as I would have preferred, I should give the matter further thought.
im guessing if the sculptor had owned the garden and the gardener was just borrowing the land, the sculptor might have showed up midweek with a truck full of junk cuz he didn’t have a place to store it, so can you please move those beds over there? sorry, it will be just that corner.... (then returns next month with another load).
Very true, and primary reason why I broke up with my "ex", but he definitely would have felt free to dump stuff even on land I owned if we were in relationship based on some argument of mutuality and bulldozer personality type logic. I know this is true, because he did do this with more affluent women he dated before me. Also, I was practicing polyamory while I was working on my permaculture project, and every man I dated, not just my Permaculture Partner, had very decided opinions on what I should or shouldn't be doing with it. So, it's not just having ownership, or avoiding partnership, I have to strictly keep all men off of my turf and not even let them visit. It would still be okay for me to visit them on their turf, because I know how to behave in the gracious follow or co-operate. I did not have problems like this in partnership with my sister, because she does know how to co-operate.

Alphaville
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:59 pm
financial profit as my motive.
aaaaaaaaaaaaah... i understand better now. you sort of stumbled into it.

but best to remove money from equation, regardless. no? i mean if you luck out you luck out, if you don’t then you lose nothing.

and then maybe you meet a broke hippy and who knows—perfect match! :lol:
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:59 pm
my health care expenses for the last 5 years have averaged less than $20/month [...] not having to report to 40 hour/week job provides you with more options for self-care.
that’s very true about self-care, but there are conditions that cannot be treated by one’s self, and with age those conditions unfortunately multiply—e.g, current asphalt, possible covid asthma complications, your mom in the hospital... everyone’s health worsens with age.

i know medicare is also 6.5 years away? (i think). but a lot can happen in those years.

then again if you’re poor enough you can get medicaid expansion if you live in the right state. i fucking hate our healthcare system. i hope you always have options.

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:59 pm
a video job interview
[...]
keeping holed up until vaccine is worth at least $60,000 net for me. [...] spend down some savings[...] avoid being the sister stuck taking care of my mother
hey congrats i had no idea! best wishes with it. a lot of things are moving to remote work so i’d just stick to that. saves on car expense too. and with your condition it’s not worth the risk. actually if you have documentation i think you can get exemption//dispensations/accommodations to work remotely. also, i think schools are looking for online teachers now, so you can find something even there.

and if not, you can always keep banking your unemployment, right? nice stash. i mean as long as you can get it.

i’m glad to know you have enough savings for housing if needed. i recall woodsman saying he didn’t want you in the street. hyperbole i guess?

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:59 pm
I [...] have a lot of initiative or Visionary energy, but I run out of Technician and/or Manager energy at some what-should-be-predictable juncture. further thought.
hahaha, same happens to me, i have plenty energy for startups but get bored with maintenance. must be my adhd or something. so i try to outsource as much repetitive bullshit as i can even if it costs a bit more. i just do not have the patience and/or have bigger fish to fry

in any case, a few ideas i’ve ran across in my research/explorations:

-instead of partner you could just get an employee (part time/contract). from virtual assistant to hourly worker. it is simpler to downsize subordinates than to remove a partner. of course part-time doesn’t guarantee they will always be there for you but you have options
-if you can’t afford employees, you could get interns or apprentices. some need for college graduation,
-a lot of permaculture people dont make money from the permaculture, they make money “teaching permaculture” (or consulting whatever). (bit of a ponzi scheme? but i digress...)
-some entrepreneurs build a business with the express goal to sell the business so theyre never bored
-setting up businesses as ”machines”. i’ve been looking into that, don’t have clear solutions but no urgent need either.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:59 pm

I have to strictly keep all men off of my turf and not even let them visit.
haaahaahaaaaaaa! yeah. i can see that. go for it!

well best wishes with everything. i’m always available to sound off non-lentil ways forward. i did start a thread on... businesses not jobs somewhere, but it turned into a jobs thread. fuck jobs, i say :lol:

...

eta: please refresh, i edited in some details

classical_Liberal
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by classical_Liberal »

Alphaville wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:36 am
there are indeed common themes in my pattern of thought
I think (@bigato can correct me if I'm wrong) what is meant is you seem to continue to struggle with the idea of various forms of capital, and the complex interplay between them. Don't feel bad, I have immense struggles with these concepts as well. Honestly reading @7WB5's take and others, like @bigatos take on these things, is very helpful for me, whether I'm part of the conversation or not.

Coming from my (and maybe your?) perspective, saved money and cash flow seem to take the lone seat in our minds for ways to securely bank capital. I continue to struggle with trying to place value on other things, because I constantly want to put a dollar figure on my gains or losses, but it just doesn't work that way. As @7WB5 just pointed out, these financial or even physical resources aren't nearly as a secure way to hold onto wealth as we may think.

This is a wheaton level thing. Trying to get beyond 5 to 6/7 takes a better understanding of all forms of capital. Those of us below 6/7 have a hard time comprehending why lentil baby skill, is much more valuable than 100K invested. An easy way to dismiss it is to look at the potentially negative dynamics of the alternative form of capital, while ignoring the risk of 100K invested losing it's value in dynamics also only partially under our control.

But yes, please go on, both of you, I'm learn'en me some stuff.

Alphaville
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

@c_L

but... i don’t think i’m talking about those things at all... :D

i think those might be artifacts of interpretation. then again written words no longer belong to the writer. that’s their fate.

on the other hand i believe @7w5 totally gets my drift, because her responses have been spot-on to what i’ve been trying to address all along, and i see no struggle or miscommunication. maybe it’s an xNTP thing :lol:

eta: i also have to add that i read her story as a very personal thing, not as illustrations of concepts. so i’m dealing with it on a very human level, not as an ideological thing, and i read things in detail and she responds also in great detail.

what i meant as looking for big ideas is because im searching for a “philosophical” solution that encompasses the details... but i don’t come to it with a predetermined solution, if that makes sense?

ah, also i never meant portfolio in the literal sense, nor suggested she gets $100k invested or something. i meant a “portfolio” of strategies... a metaphorical thing.

plus, oh, other stuff mixed in... psychology, etc. i think arriving to the idea of boundaries was cool. :)

bigato
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by bigato »

Spot-on, c_L. I'm trying to come up with some kind of metaphor to explain how this exchange looks for me, but I'm failing at that. But let me try. Note: all of the written below is a scenario created in my head only.

It is as if I had built the nicest possible house inside a container truck, something that had a market value of say, 200k, easy to sell, very comfortable, completely off-grid, an economic and reliable truck. But there's a catch, you look at it from the outside, it resembles just a normal truck. It even looks beaten-down, if you don't look at its guts (the engine is brand-new). It is completely stealth. And you know this kind of machine, maybe you even drove one of them in the past, and you know that when winter comes, it is freezing in the container. Those things definitely where not built for someone to live inside.

Then you happen to stumble on me at some friend's house, we start talking, we engage well in our conversation, and soon you are asking personal questions, like where you live and such. And I answer "oh, I own a truck and I'm living in it". Then you start telling me, oh, I am so sorry that you are in such a position now, this pandemic thing has been really harsh on all of us, etc. And you start giving me advice on how I could get myself a job, giving me career advice, etc. Which I listen to patiently, since I know you mean well and really want to help me, but you have no idea that a have a couple million in investments and retired early. Since I don't feel like disclosing much, I let you engage in the advice, show gratitude, since it seems so cathartic to you in a way.

In a way, this exchange feels like that to me. It is as if Alphaville has a huge alarm in his head that goes off like spider sense, every time someone mentions any kind of social arrangement not predicated on money and safe written contracts. MUST NOT DEPEND ON ANYONE, it goes screaming inside his head. PEOPLE WILL DUMP YOU WHEN YOU NEED THEM THE MOST, stuff like that. Meanwhile, 7w5, as Greenfield, seems very comfortable navigating the complexities of interpersonal relations and communities, and have such a richness of options available, that maybe it would be even hard for them to understand where those DANGER! DANGER! advice come from Alphaville.
Last edited by bigato on Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Alphaville
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

ah, it’s so frustrating to be SO completely misunderstood! :lol:

7Wannabe5
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@c_L@bigato: From my perspective, Alphaville seemed to be engaging the voice of a therapist/coach/journalist who does not yet know me very well. However, I did share a bit of your sense of "Why is he assuming that I am likely to feel like The Little Matchstick Girl?" but it didn't faze me. I am in the habit of self-examination, so just took it as opportunity to question myself.

I am not very much like Rob Greenfield, although I do admire him. I do not even like the term Social Capital as it is usually understood, and I am certainly not very good at creating it or maintaining it in the way that it is usually understood. I am semi-notorious for not even returning phone calls or e-mails while I am engaged in a project or a book etc. What I think I am pretty good at is understanding the general social field or "lay of the land" from an outsider's (Ne scout) perspective. It's like a rolling landscape where you can sometimes simply skate downhill or you sometimes face a rugged climb. The trick is recognizing that at a certain level of frugality in a highly affluent culture such as ours, if most other things in your resource backpack signal "middle-class" or even just "not drunk and violent", you are usually going to be skating downhill with multiple offers of helium balloons on the offer. However, that doesn't mean that the field looks the same to an individual at the same level who has never been any higher and is struggling to climb. That's why I prefer the term Cultural Capital to describe why I can maintain a pretty good lifestyle at very low spending level. Part of the reason why this is true is that people want to believe simple narratives about success and failure, because these narratives make them feel secure, so if you deviate from one of the several standard narratives in a way that is kind of baffling, the desire to "fix" is strong; less altruism than discomfort with dissonance.
Alphaville wrote:aaaaaaaaaaaaah... i understand better now. you sort of stumbled into it.

but best to remove money from equation, regardless. no? i mean if you luck out you luck out, if you don’t then you lose nothing.

and then maybe you meet a broke hippy and who knows—perfect match! :lol:
I don't even sort for affluent when I date. I think men who are my age range and broke do not try to date women very much. Those pills are kind of pricey.
that’s very true about self-care, but there are conditions that cannot be treated by one’s self, and with age those conditions unfortunately multiply—e.g, current asphalt, possible covid asthma complications, your mom in the hospital... everyone’s health worsens with age.
True, but I still think lack of time for adequate self-care is worse hazard. For instance, when I was substitute teacher at inner city school, even one of the 20 something year old teachers who participated in triathlons as her hobby was overheard in lunchroom saying "I told my boyfriend I can't even go out on Friday nights, because I am always so exhausted."
hey congrats i had no idea! best wishes with it. a lot of things are moving to remote work so i’d just stick to that. saves on car expense too. and with your condition it’s not worth the risk. actually if you have documentation i think you can get exemption//dispensations/accommodations to work remotely. also, i think schools are looking for online teachers now, so you can find something even there.

and if not, you can always keep banking your unemployment, right? nice stash. i mean as long as you can get it.

i’m glad to know you have enough savings for housing if needed. i recall woodsman saying he didn’t want you in the street. hyperbole i guess?
Yeah, I think I only took the call from the headhunter because I am getting so antsy from being cooped up injured. I am going to tell them that I will only consider upper level high school math position. Given reasonably civilized young adults in 6ft spaced chairs like a seminar, windows that open, and p95 masks available for my use, might fall within my safe-enough strategy. Dunno...

The Cowboy doesn't like any of the options for alternate housing which I suggest that are within my budget. He deems them all as dangerous or ridiculous. I am currently indifferent/inertial.
-instead of partner you could just get an employee (part time/contract). from virtual assistant to hourly worker. it is simpler to downsize subordinates than to remove a partner. of course part-time doesn’t guarantee they will always be there for you but you have options
-if you can’t afford employees, you could get interns or apprentices. some need for college graduation,
-a lot of permaculture people dont make money from the permaculture, they make money “teaching permaculture” (or consulting whatever). (bit of a ponzi scheme? but i digress...)
-some entrepreneurs build a business with the express goal to sell the business so theyre never bored
-setting up businesses as ”machines”. i’ve been looking into that, don’t have clear solutions but no urgent need either.
I have had the "just get an employee" notion myself. In fact, I find it so motivating, I have contemplated doing it prior to even having working idea. IOW, having the fact of an employee force the business into being.

I did do the "machine" thing after reading stupid-head Tim Ferris and I now regret it. It is too easy to let things slide when you outsource too much of your functioning.

Alphaville
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:11 am
@c_L@bigato: From my perspective, Alphaville seemed to be engaging the voice of a therapist/coach/journalist who does not yet know me very well.
yes! thank you... this is a relief for me because it signals that we have communication. then i forget that not everyone reading this is you, so at times fail to take insurance for the audience.

anyway, i’m just learning about your story and trying to learn from it and understand what works/ doesn’t work/ etc.

i DO express concern when i find cause for it, because i’m not a panglossian, i’ve had my share of personal catastrophes, and i know a lot of people who died (great song, hahaha).

also i’m not ashamed of trying to be helpful to people if i spot a problem. i mean, i come here for constructive criticism, not for validation, and to “stress test” ideas. e.g see my apple thread where i asked people to tear up my plan? a criticized plan is a good plan. confirmation bias is problematic—damaging, even.

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:11 am
However, I did share a bit of your sense of "Why is he assuming that I am likely to feel like The Little Matchstick Girl?" but it didn't faze me. I am in the habit of self-examination, so just took it as opportunity to question myself.
i tend to say what i think, and i am a terible diplomat, so a therapist once told me that i was “a nightmare for insecure women.” :lol:

but i never took you for an insecure person, because you share so freely and thoughtfully and without fear. so there’s that, and i’m glad i was right about you, and i’m happy to clear the misunderstanding.

anyway, the reason i thought of possible destitution is that in one of your other posts (remember the “i pay for my bitches” post? that one, or an adjacent one) you said the bf told you he didn’t mind paying because he didn’t want you to be in the street, or something along those lines.

so, while now it looks like that was a rhetorical expression on his part, the lack of context/not knowing you enough led me to believe that you might actually be at risk of homelessness. thanks for understanding this.

and not “were” but “might,” see? anyway, i’m glad you’re not, and i’m glad i asked.

since i don’t live in the best of all possible worlds, i actually have a friend who almost ended up homeless recently, so for me it’s not like these things don’t happen to anyone. she had a boyfriend who refused to take his meds and got into all sorts of trouble and almost dragged her into that... lifestyle? she’s now safe with family, away from the creep, and has a decent job, thank fuck. (and btw, audience take note, my friend is a divorced middle aged woman, not some runaway teen.)

anyway, speaking of sharing, i feel this exchange is a bit unbalanced because i don’t share as much as you do. but this is the open internet, so i don’t feel so comfortable with the confessional mode, especially when misreadings abound.

maybe some day i’ll tell you my own story as the recipient of matronage in my hedonist boho days, hahahaha. it started like great fun but didn’t end well. the artist residence with nookie included became a web of lies, the no strings became strings, and the life saving medicine became poison. eventually i managed to escape, which was a good end to that adventure, but i’ll leave the details for another day.

i’ll reply to the rest of your post later. thanks for the good conversation!

Alphaville
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

ok so for part 2
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:11 am
I don't even sort for affluent when I date. I think men who are my age range and broke do not try to date women very much. Those pills are kind of pricey.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

ok i laughed earlier today when i read it. i’m laughing now all over again...
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:11 am
True, but I still think lack of time for adequate self-care is worse hazard. For instance, when I was substitute teacher at inner city school, even one of the 20 something year old teachers who participated in triathlons as her hobby was overheard in lunchroom saying "I told my boyfriend I can't even go out on Friday nights, because I am always so exhausted."
yeah i agree. this is why i hate our health system: you have to kill yourself in order to afford good healthcare.

douglas coupland wrote something along those lines. i think it went something like “americans spend their youth and health making money, and in old age they spend their money trying to buy health.” i don’t have the book with me right now but it was on “generation x”.

in any case, i only get hurt when i try to do sports.

still though, some things we can’t control.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:11 am
Yeah, I think I only took the call from the headhunter because I am getting so antsy from being cooped up injured. I am going to tell them that I will only consider upper level high school math position. Given reasonably civilized young adults in 6ft spaced chairs like a seminar, windows that open, and p95 masks available for my use, might fall within my safe-enough strategy. Dunno...
if i were you i wouldn’t do it in those conditions, but you might be able to pull off that gig as a 100% online situation. i hear from my sources that schools are looking for online teachers. i mean specialist positions in online teaching.

and yeah, middle school is a fucking nightmare. in high school they’re mostly sane again.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:11 am
The Cowboy doesn't like any of the options for alternate housing which I suggest that are within my budget. He deems them all as dangerous or ridiculous. I am currently indifferent/inertial.
the cowboy is the woodsman?
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:11 am
I have had the "just get an employee" notion myself. In fact, I find it so motivating, I have contemplated doing it prior to even having working idea. IOW, having the fact of an employee force the business into being.
sounds expensive. maybe get a virtual assistant to help you develop a business, and then go from there?
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:11 am
I did do the "machine" thing after reading stupid-head Tim Ferris and I now regret it. It is too easy to let things slide when you outsource too much of your functioning.
“stupid head tim ferris” :lol: :lol: :lol:

yeah. how to work 4 hours a week by getting into oprah WAT. it was lies, but it was interesting ones.

i never actually managed and had to always provide a service and i’m burned out on clients.

nevertheless, a small machine might be a nice piece of a moderate semi-ERE puzzle. if you have any ideas that don’t interest you please send them my way.

classical_Liberal
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by classical_Liberal »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:11 am
Part of the reason why this is true is that people want to believe simple narratives about success and failure, because these narratives make them feel secure, so if you deviate from one of the several standard narratives in a way that is kind of baffling, the desire to "fix" is strong; less altruism than discomfort with dissonance.
This statement is super interesting to me! I wonder if you'd care to elaborate. I take it as meaning you have upper-middle or upper class interaction style, along with mathematics degree from prestigious university. Yet live in a trailer on urban an urban permaculture site... "Does not compute" with the people in upper-middle or upper class that you interact with? If my take on this is correct, do opportunities just get thrown your way, or do you purposely interact with these people? By purposefully I don't mean to try to take advantage, rather they are just the types of people you prefer to spend time with or are drawn to you.

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by classical_Liberal »

@alphaville
Sorry I was interfering with your interaction.

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

classical_Liberal wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:46 pm
@alphaville
Sorry I was interfering with your interaction.
all good my man. all feedback is good feedback, we’re here for it, and this is the open internet, where the observer effect applies just like in particle physics.

7Wannabe5
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Alphaville wrote:“generation x”.
Great read. The weird thing is Coupland is actually too old to be GenX according to 1965 cutoff. I am right on the cusp, but relate much more to GenX because all my siblings were younger. However, vast majority of the boys and men I have dated have been Boomers. Might have something to do with why I feel like they are "old" even if they are just a few years older than me.
you might be able to pull off that gig as a 100% online situation.
They're only hiring for assume-we-will-be-in-classroom now, but said they'd get back in touch if they can't fill position and wind up online. Anyways, a potentially more lucrative, very flexible, temporary, much more Covid-safe opportunity just came my way, and it will also offer a free housing option, so moving on!
the cowboy is the woodsman?
The Cowboy is my current housemate, the last remaining of my 3 most significant polyamours, except not really, because The Permaculture Manager tried to text me up for sex again yesterday (told him I was still Covid-isolating), and The Peacemaker emailed me again this morning. In case you were wondering, I call him The Cowboy because he has wide shoulders, long lanky build, cute little butt, tendency towards quick acquisition of 5:00 shadow, and rather rough manner due to growing up out in Ted Nugent country.
sounds expensive. maybe get a virtual assistant to help you develop a business, and then go from there?
A virtual assistant would be too easy for me to ignore. But, yes it would be too expensive, just a mental construct I developed.

classical_Liberal wrote:This statement is super interesting to me! I wonder if you'd care to elaborate. I take it as meaning you have upper-middle or upper class interaction style, along with mathematics degree from prestigious university. Yet live in a trailer on urban an urban permaculture site... "Does not compute" with the people in upper-middle or upper class that you interact with? If my take on this is correct, do opportunities just get thrown your way, or do you purposely interact with these people? By purposefully I don't mean to try to take advantage, rather they are just the types of people you prefer to spend time with or are drawn to you.
It's a much broader concept than what you suggested. For instance, one example would be how visitors react if you only have a folding lawn chair in your living room where they would expect a sofa. Another example would be how I attempted to drop out of school and self-educate in the library when I was 14, then chose option to attend special school for drop-outs after I was finally busted, then pretty much got kicked up and out of that school because I didn't abuse any substances, and I wrote annoying notes to the staff on the topic of negative vs. positive reinforcement. However, it would also include the Yacht Guy saying "We need to get you a new car."

Buckminster Fuller wrote an interesting bit on how common language is often not in alignment with what we know scientifically. One example he offered was that we still refer to the wind as blowing even though we know that it is sucking. This also applies to social structure.

Alphaville
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

on a busy morning, just read wuickly, had a good laugh, and briefly stopping to say:
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:49 am

The Cowboy is my current housemate, the last remaining of my 3 most significant polyamours, except not really, because The Permaculture Manager tried to text me up for sex again yesterday (told him I was still Covid-isolating), and The Peacemaker emailed me again this morning. In case you were wondering, I call him The Cowboy because he has wide shoulders, long lanky build, cute little butt, tendency towards quick acquisition of 5:00 shadow, and rather rough manner due to growing up out in Ted Nugent country.
see, dear audience, this is why one has to ask questions when following a good story: to avoid misunderstandings. same reason why some people have to draw a family tree when reading “100 years of solitude.” :lol: (i didn’t, btw)

@7w5

so, your housemate is the “i pay for my bitches” woodsman, is the cowboy, then? he’s got the most epithets. must be important.

to me a peacemaker is a gun (colt single action army) which is a classic cowboy weapon. so... why peacemaker? do we know him from where? i don’t think i’ve heard much about him,

yacht guy i’ll just call the shah: rich and iranian, likes to dangle a mercedes before your eyes. :)

and did perma manager relieve you of your shared property at last? i tend to recall yes, but just asking for confirmation. weren’t you annoyed with him or something?

7Wannabe5
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Alphaville:

My housemate is the person who said "I pay for my bitches" and he does own wooded acreage , but "the illiterate woodsman" is just a humorous character based on the fact that a female novelist I really like is married to an illiterate woodsman. The Cowboy is a well-paid professional. He is important, but more in a "Will and Grace" way if Will had complete opposite personality type, and Grace was more nerdy. His best friend who is an eccentric multi-millionaire is also an important totally platonic relationship character, because I lived with both of them for a while. And that is who I will probably be living with starting next week, because he needs some help.

The Peacemaker was my polyamour who was the most overtly polyamorous, because he was married, and his marriage contract from conception was open. However, his wife became jealous because he was in love with me and told him he couldn't see me anymore. So, now he wants to see me on the sly, and I am not really down with that. I called him the Peacemaker, because he is VERY upper middle class, tennis playing, diplomat type; likely Type 9 known as The Peacemaker on the Enneagram (ENFP ish.) Looks like a cross between Mitt Romney and Dick Cavett. Very subtle, romantic flavor of dominance.

The Yacht Guy is not my Iranian American "Ex." I only dated the Yacht Guy for a little while around 5 years ago, but he is still after me. He said "We need to get you a new car." on our 3rd date. He was actually pretty cool (it's mean for me to call him the Yacht Guy, because he was poor when he was a kid, and he is a very skilled sailor who competes in big races), but it seemed like he wanted exclusivity, and I had just started practicing polyamory. I didn't start practicing polyamory until after I broke up with my Iranian American "Ex." I call him my "Ex", because I can't decide if our contract/relationship counts as my second marriage. My most conventional sister says it does, and she is probably right, since I considered his daughters to be my step-daughters, and we wore rings, etc. Anyways, I obviously chose to start practicing polyamory at the age of 50, after a lifetime of strict serial monogamy, in part due to the fact that when we were together it infuriated me that he sometimes acted like it was a big deal that he had to give up being polygamous because I required monogamy as term of our contract. I do understand his perspective better now. We broke up over 5 years ago, but I saw him again early this year after he was in a motorcycle accident, and we ended up hitting it again a couple times.

The Permaculture Manager and I still haven't closed the deal, but that is partly due to my lack of desire to go out in public and deal with notary public etc. He's a good egg. I was mostly just annoyed at myself for not completely honoring my commitment to myself regarding that project.

ETA: I also wanted to note that I never date the kind of guy who would "dangle a Mercedes." I only date reasonably frugal men who would like me to drive something more like a recent model Honda instead of a pretty pathetic looking not-aging-well Mazda Protege that I bought for $1200 from a Russian guy who bought it at auction. My daughter didn't even like me to drop her off at her high school when I was driving that car.

Alphaville
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:10 pm
lots
🤯

my insufficient male brain has trouble processing so much social info. i like hemingway because he was a great reducer. here i need code names taped to chess pieces, so i can watch them move on the board. i will attempt to introduce some linearity, let’s see...

your relationship trajectory is (roughly, let’s remove the older parts) :

first marriage —> second marriage (iranian)—> poly

first marriage dude had problems, he’s out of the picture?

second marriage dude still close, family ties, had accident, entered the poly pool

as for the polys, we have:

cowboy: main guy you going from
aviator*: serious platonic guy you going to
diplomat: a better descriptor for upper class, dealt with the united nations (“everyone”), wants to sign secret pact
sailor: more apt than “the yacht guy”, just wanted you in a decent car
eggman: (good egg, manager): permaculture number 9

(tinker, tailor, soldier... like that)

* i’m calling him the aviator, like howard hughes (eccentric millionaire). please let me keep this tag for a moment so i don’t lose the plot.

i don’t want details on the russian guy—too many characters for now! code name: nabokov :D
Last edited by Alphaville on Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

classical_Liberal
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by classical_Liberal »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:49 am
It's a much broader concept than what you suggested.
Interesting... With those examples it makes me think people feel the need to "fix", not "help" or "collaborate". Which are two totally different things in my ENTJ mind. I really enjoy "collaboration" even if that means one person thinks they are helping, but I'd pretty much lose it if people kept trying to fix me.

I'm a late Gen Xer, and although I feel the pull of millennial thoughts at times, I'm generally a perfect example of going against expectations simply for the pleasure seeing people uncomfortable with my life. This is often where the good meaning "fixers" come in and irritate the piss out of me. :lol:

This could just be me taking it personally. What they really want is to fit the world into their model and some things about me do not. Meaning I miss out on a lot of collaborative opportunities because of my personality. I wonder if there is some work I could do to change the way I react to the "fixers", that would end in more net positive personal relationships? Maybe there is a gender dynamic at play here too, not just personalities?

Frita
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Frita »

@c_L
Anyone prone to fixing seems to prefer a one up-one down relationship dynamic. If one enjoys the attention from people being uncomfortable with unconventional choices, a fixer will see the opportunity to fix someone so clearly misguided. Can one sidestep the power struggle by considering what others think of him/her as none of his/her business?

classical_Liberal
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Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:05 am

Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by classical_Liberal »

Frita wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:29 pm
@c_L
Anyone prone to fixing seems to prefer a one up-one down relationship dynamic.
Interesting, and maybe true in some cases. However, I think many fixers actually enjoy being helpful, not necessarily to gain the upper hand in some power dynamic. I run into quite a few of these pleasant meddlers in the nursing profession, I would think you get the same in teaching? This is where I think taking part in collaborative efforts could still be mutually beneficial, if I can "get over myself" and not take it personally. @7WB5 seems to do so well with this.
Frita wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:29 pm
If one enjoys the attention from people being uncomfortable with unconventional choices, a fixer will see the opportunity to fix someone so clearly misguided.
It's not like I walk around with my arms raised and middle fingers out. However, just being a 40 something year old male, never married, with no kids male makes me a bit of a target. It's not like I'm gonna lie about these things, but I do wear them with pride. An upper middle class income, living a working class outward lifestyle (this is my preference BTW, not just because it's less costly). Add in the ERE stuff and all the accompanying lifestyle oddities. I run into plenty from the fixer vibe that think I could do things better.
Frita wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:29 pm
Can one sidestep the power struggle by considering what others think of him/her as none of his/her business?
Yes. This is basically what I do. I'm just wondering if there is a better way.

Alphaville
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

i have people who call me & my wife crazy for not having a car and using bicycle as transportation, for living 2 adults to a studio apartment, for not wanting kids, for not wanting a big house, for not having furniture (we broke down and bought furniture due to pandemic confinement), for not celebrating hallmark holidays or other any other holidays (outside of halloween actually because it’s hilarious), for trying experimental diets, for acknowledging our problems and talking about the uncomfortable past and going to therapy, for not having a tv (we got a tv for the pandemic eventually, whatever), for liking animals more than people, for having bicycles but not wanting ebikes, for shunning overpriced and disappointing restaurants, for not having any kind of real job for a very long time (she now has a “real job” because she wanted), for not enjoying group activities very much, for not racking up debts anymore, for not joining groups, for not wanting more things, for not doing secret santa, and for not giving 3 fucks about those people who call us crazy,...

...plus each of us is called crazy in our own individual spheres for a myriad other individual things of our own—but sharing those things in common listed above actually help us lift our middle fingers higher and more firmly wherever each of us goes.

it’s great to have an accomplice in this world.

and now for a vintage musical interlude:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kTs_Q4hEqmA
:mrgreen:

(i’m not sure the r-word is still apt in this day and age, but the main thrust of the thing is so... necessary for survival).

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