"Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

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7Wannabe5
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Alphaville:

The tandem couple was cute, but I would note for the record that even on this forum there are no American men my age who do not own a car. I don’t date men who aren’t reasonably frugal. It’s just not that easy to find older men who would choose to live on what I am willing to spend rather than supplement me up to his level. In fact, evidence that I must be at least two levels beyond “reasonably frugal” would be that reasonably frugal men think I am crazy when I suggest what I consider to be reasonable alternatives. So, my only option is to keep metaphorically pedaling on my own. I’m okay with that :D

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:22 pm
I would note for the record that even on this forum there are no American men my age who do not own a car.
i’d dispute that. maybe your perception is an artifact of living in motor city? :D
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:22 pm
So, my only option is to keep metaphorically pedaling on my own. I’m okay with that :D
so: no sea captain who pays the bills, after all?

im confused now :(

7Wannabe5
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Alphaville:

I just think it would be easier to find a sea captain who pays the bills than a man my age who would like to chip in 50/50 on an at most $1200/month lifestyle.

Anyways, main point being that I need my own garden/workshop/studio/lab/library/office time/space modules which I do not share.

Alphaville
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:22 pm
I just think it would be easier to find a sea captain who pays the bills than a man my age who would like to chip in 50/50 on an at most $1200/month lifestyle.
oh, this is where i got confused. you mean the restaurant bills but not your bills, yes? i mean the dinner or bar tab or whatever, but not your electricity or groceries or rent/mortgage, etc?
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:22 pm
Anyways, main point being that I need my own garden/workshop/studio/lab/library/office time/space modules which I do not share.
ah, yes! not that you need my agreement, but i think this (which for me is just financial independence by another name) is the key. your own realm, unsubsidized, wholly independent, no matter how frugal and small, but fully yours. from there you can visit or be visited, you can venture out or retreat to it, you can accept gifts or shut the door on people’s faces, etc.

i wish you all the best planting your flag and building it.

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Alphaville:

Maybe we’re both confused :lol:

I did mean that it would be much easier to find a man who would 100% cover my minuscule bills than a man who would agree to live 50/50 on $1200 total/month. And whether or not I would have more say over mutual lifestyle design in the first situation vs. the second is debatable.

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:43 pm
I did mean that it would be much easier to find a man who would 100% cover my minuscule bills
oh nononono. fuck that situation i say, fuck depending on the menzes unless it comes with highly formal bureucratic agreements (alimony, division of property, the backing of the courts and sheriff’s office, that sort of thing). it’s a bad place to be, and you can read all about it from jane austen to jean rhys.

you’re smart and competent, you can cover such tiny bills on your own, no need to lean on some drunken sailor—it’s just a matter of finding the right aim and designing the right projects, and then executing. i have faith in you. cmon, rosie the riveter—you can do it!

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Alphaville:

You don’t feel sorry for all those old men in empty houses who don’t have anybody to cuddle with at night or make them salmon patties?

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:59 pm
@Alphaville:

You don’t feel sorry for all those old men in empty houses who don’t have anybody to cuddle with at night or make them salmon patties?
nah... cheap bastards. a girlfriend experience should cover much more than “minuscule bills.” workers’ rights or gtfo.

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Alphaville:

True, but if you call the cheap bastard out for being a cheap bastard in that manner, you then are faced with the risk that he might suggest marriage. If not immediately, then on that sad evening a few weeks later when he attempts to make his own salmon patties after looking at the total charges he racked up tipping Ukrainian internet models.

Alphaville
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:53 pm
@Alphaville:

True, but if you call the cheap bastard out for being a cheap bastard in that manner, you then are faced with the risk that he might suggest marriage. If not immediately, then on that sad evening a few weeks later when he attempts to make his own salmon patties after looking at the total charges he racked up tipping Ukrainian internet models.
i’m not saying you should marry the [expletive deleted]. im saying you should get 4x the current contribution if you want a 75% savings rate :D

(6x, if after tax)

7Wannabe5
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Alphaville:

It’s just my own tertiary Fe and 4th spot Si projecting underdeveloped sentimentality that makes the old dawgs seem so sad. According to the author of “Front Seat Living” who coaches female entrepreneurs, I need to suppress those two functions and focus on my power twin functions of Ne and Ti. Since Ti is secondary, I need to pump it up by asking the question “Does this make sense?”

So, does it make sense to continue camping out with my BF, given Covid, my still semi-invalid state , and the fact that he is paying all the bills besides my cell, storage locker, car insurance, and miscellaneous which makes my current savings rate with federal unemployment bump about 93%? My answer is “Yes, at least until I am no longer semi-invalid and/or can find $300/month golden girls type house-share or senior apartment or other old guy willing to 50/50 on $600/month lease with me.” But then I remember that I don’t even know if/where I will be teaching in the fall, so doesn’t make sense to make housing decision prior to that decision. If I was feeling better, I might just take off and go camping for the rest of the summer.

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

@7w5

oh, wow.

yeah, again you don’t need my or anybody’s approval, but i wasn’t getting the whole story, and i had no idea of your full situation. well maybe i did some but heard of other plans. semi-invalid? wtf? i thought you were going to build a farm near some lake and i assumed you were strong as an ox (and twice as smart! :P :lol: )

seriously though, i thought you were healthy. but i did read last night in your take 6 journal that you were a ft teacher who quit a dysfunctional district under cover of covid, and something about your lungs?

i had no idea you had a profession, i thought you lived exclusively by your wits, selling books and building/selling permacultures, getting men to feed you and buy you things, etc.

so... captain haddock is just some fantasy of being taken care of by someone, yes? material for a novel, rather than solid business plan? i didn’t get the NeTi pot entrepreneur part but that’s okay, i don’t have to explain. you did call them sad.

this is all still very confusing for me, but i’m not sure if it’s the same for you. i hope writing about it helps you make sense? i often need to write things to know what i’m thinking, because i have too many ideas that aren’t necessarily compatible with each other. so writing things out helps me with the sorting and clarifying function, and reader feedback helps refine even more.

now i get that you’re waiting for some clarity in your situation. did you ever read saul bellow’s dangling man? interesting little novella. you might relate some...

7Wannabe5
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Alphaville:

Yeah, I have the bad habit of randomly babbling on random threads rather than keeping my story confined to my journal.

I am generally healthy. I just have under control asthma that responds very poorly to respiratory infections, which at age 55 makes my current guesstimate of death risk from Covid around 2%. Also,right at the time that Covid was peaking in my area, I ended up in the emergency room with violent diarrhea and a fever that hit 102. That infection has left me with a bad tear in the area of my anal sphincter which is either not healing or only healing very slowly. I have the option of surgery, but the recovery will likely be very painful, has small risk of rendering me permanently incontinent, and would cost me at least $2000 towards deductible. So, at the moment I am only comfortable while lying down or walking.

I only took up part time substitute teaching as new option in my bag of tricks a few years ago. I only became emergency certified to teach secondary math around 6 months ago. The terrible gig I quit as Covid was winding up was my first assignment. Since I was technically employed there less than 30 days, I qualified for unemployment benefits based on part-time substitute teaching. Beyond risk of Covid infection, the problem with picking up another assignment in the fall is my emergency certification status kind of dooms me to the worst dregs of positions, plus I have to pay a sort of indentured servitude fee to a for-profit certifying agency.

Captain Haddock is more rough compilation than fantasy. As I noted, my current BF is letting me Covid crash with him gratis. Also, my Iranian American “ex” who provided me with a good deal of financial support under the terms of our “marriage” contract likely wants me back. And there is another man I refer to as the Yacht Guy who has been after me for several years. And my quite affluent married former polyamour also wants me back, but I don’t really know if he would throw down for love nest. Etc.

It does help me to write all this down. Thanks for sound boarding. I did read “Dangling Man” many years ago. I loved Saul Bellow so hard I was going to name my daughter Augie if she was a boy.

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:10 am
Yeah, I have the bad habit of randomly babbling [...]

eh, it’s not babbling, all good, and i normally don’t read journals (but i’ve started to peek).

i remember bits and pieces now, like the “die array,” and something about “butt surgery,” i didn’t realize they were both connected, but it sounds like it’s a fissure? that would be the term.

fissures heal but they need lots of care. sitz baths are your friend! nuts and seeds are not... bananas yes! apple not so much... especially with the skin (ouch). and a daily dosage of colace or equate brand equivalent is most helpful. and sitz baths after.

asphalt (ass fault) is awful, yeah. but you should mend if you take good care. intermittent fasting too might help by reducing bm frequency. and walking, sure. improves the spine too.

as for high risk with underlying respiratory issues, yeah, don’t fuck with it. but if you’re a teacher there are other options. lots of tutoring to be done online, especially ESL, from children of chinese millionaires to young brazilian business executives.

i get that you can’t sit in front of a computer now, but in the future you will. or you could rig a standup desk (treadmill desk?) or something.

there’s this “law” in life (i don’t know if it has a name, i’ve just observed it) that the more you do something the more you tend to do it, due to inertia or network effects or whatever. my point being that teaching public school may not be a great gig but aside from health concerns (or security, in some districts) it’s a fairly secure one, unionized, decent healthcare, etc. and it’s more or less portable if you have reciprocity with other states.

so as long as you get vested in the pension system you could get a reasonable retirement with health care included. sure, pensions can be fucked with by governments, but it’s better than nothing. you may not win but it’s hard to lose.

anyway this wasn’t really to say get into that bureaucracy if you don’t want to, but the credentials and certifications and watever are door openers for part time and online gigs, the training business, etc. and of course moving to a better district.

getting money from men... is another subject which i’d like to discuss separately from health/work issues if you’re ok with it hahahaha. i dont mean to pry into your private life, but you seem to share freely, and i have a literary interest in these things—it’s often the subject of tragedies i’m afraid, but stories are a mode of cognition in themselves and good common points of reference.

(and i also like puzzles, and solving problems, hahahaha. brain candy. eta: and maybe the story doesn’t end in tragedy.)

7Wannabe5
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Alphaville:

No way I am going to teach full time long enough to vest a pension. I have been considering online option for once I can sit up again. I am already doing everything possible, including applying special compounding pharmacy cream religiously, to heal the fissure, but it’s been weeks and weeks now, and I am getting quite grouchy. However, I am going to give it a few more weeks, and then try getting a shot of Botox before considering surgery.

I’m fine talking about my “lentil baby” or “buddy” practice, but it’s definitely not like I’m likely to suffer Tess D’Ubervilles type tragedy at the age of 55 :lol: My predicaments are generally more like post-modern ridiculous version of failed Lucy Ricardo scheme.

Alphaville
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:50 pm
No way I am going to teach full time long enough to vest a pension.
oh! ok. that simplifies some options lol

but hey, for any sort of boho/indie enterprise, subbing is a quick easy way to supplement income, particularly for intellectual types. i have friends who do this while they write/make movies/freelance/whatever. would be great supplemental flexible for ERE, in fact.

but supplemental is the key word here.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:50 pm
I have been considering online option for once I can sit up again.
that would be a good car-free option (literal not metaphorical). massive cost cuts.

consider however if seating won’t be a long term option the possibility of the treadmill desk. yes there is a setup cost, and yes it’s not your own house to do as you wish, but it’s a workable situation in itself: walking and talking like an aaron sorkin show.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:50 pm
I am already doing everything possible, including applying special compounding pharmacy cream religiously, to heal the fissure, but it’s been weeks and weeks now, and I am getting quite grouchy. However, I am going to give it a few more weeks, and then try getting a shot of Botox before considering surgery.
botox? :shock: idk if that... ooof... yikes! what’s that supposed to achieve? 6-month paralysis? :?

btw, i’m sure @c_L knows a few extra tricks for tissue care. i’d interrogate him and request further interrogation of specialists. tissue regeneration in that spot is a delicate thing. ffs, how did you do this? on second thought: i dont wanna know 🙈
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:50 pm
I’m fine talking about my “lentil baby” or “buddy” practice, but it’s definitely not like I’m likely to suffer Tess D’Ubervilles type tragedy at the age of 55 :lol: My predicaments are generally more like post-modern ridiculous version of failed Lucy Ricardo scheme.
i like your humor a lot, but my concern here is that banking hopes of retirement and security on an assortment of uncommitted ageing lovers is bound to lead to destitution in the end.

i get the idea of “seeking an arrangement,” it’s not a rare thing. it tends to happen with younger people in the sugar baby role, but whatever, you have a history here, there is more to it when it’s not a stranger— great.

i don’t object to it on moral grounds, provided it’s consenting adults who know what they’re getting into and have an exit strategy. no exit strategy leads to serious unpleasantness because dependence can enable coercion.

i do have objections on psychological grounds, because i think trading intimacy for security can be problematic, perhaps damaging. but everyone’s psychology is different, so ymmv.

where i get objectively worried is with banking on these guys to gift you your independence. i mean, as an investment plan of sorts, maybe it could happen like a lottery ticket could happen? but most probably won’t, or it would have happened already. rich people like to be in control and they tend to dangle promises but never deliver because then the incentive for you to stick around is gone.

here’s a recent story that comes to mind. it’s not about sex, it’s about power differentials and informal arrangements. same difference though: https://getpocket.com/explore/item/my-s ... -assistant

in my opinion, it’s fine if you hope to maybe inherit the yacht some day, but you need a self-sufficient alternative to fall back on in case in the end he decides to give it to a 26 year old he met on seeking.com

always having an exit strategy is the best strategy.

and i’m glad you don’t need one at this moment when you’re wounded and vulnerable and trapped in place, but one can’t always count on luck, because probabilities will out in the long run.

so, it’s obvious you need your own garden, but you can’t count on someone buying it for you.

so—what would be the strategy for that scenario? is there a way that you can build it on your own? i think that’s the foothold that would let you operate more freely.

7Wannabe5
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Alphaville wrote:but hey, for any sort of boho/indie enterprise, subbing is a quick easy way to supplement income, particularly for intellectual types. i have friends who do this while they write/make movies/freelance/whatever. would be great supplemental flexible for ERE, in fact.

but supplemental is the key word here.
Right. It was ideal as an alternative or supplemental income when I was also running my rare book business with my sister. I enjoy substitute teaching if I only do it 2 non-consecutive days/week. Even at that low rate, it does provide more than 1 Jacob/month of income. At its peak, my internet book business provided lower middle class income, but these-a-days if/when I start it up again, I wouldn't count on it for much more than 1 Jacob/month either.
botox?
The theory is that the slow-healing is due to pressure differential preventing blood flow. The botox will relax the muscle to relieve the pressure differential. The cause of my injury was violent diarrhea due to terrible lower intestinal infection fever syndrome combined with delicate old lady skin. I nasal tested negative for Covid, but my doctor still thinks it is possibility, and either I tested too late, or intestinal version doesn't show up on nasal swab. Getting an anti-body test is on my to do list. I am typing this in child pose, so that is an improvement over horizontal.

I read that this can also happen to mountain bikers, so you kids better be careful too!
my concern here is that banking hopes of retirement and security on an assortment of uncommitted ageing lovers is bound to lead to destitution in the end...
One thing that differentiates me from much of the rest of the crowd here on the forum is that I'm not particularly concerned about the possibility of being broke or having to start from scratch again. The challenge is more developing a sort of ideal EDC of skills/minimal resources/tools with which you can always start over again. That said, I do consider having enough liquid cash roll to carry myself for at least 6+ months to be part of that minimal tool kit. Right now, I could probably cover myself for at least a couple years without working. Also, "in the end" absent EOTWAWKI scenario, I have worked enough over the years that I will be collecting more than 1 Jacob in Social Security benefits in about 6.5 years, and mooching off of my affluent old lovers is just one of my punting strategies for in the meanwhile. IOW, the simple fact that I am so frugal in my spending habits is my best or largest puzzle piece towards security. If, OTOH, I was counting on Lentil Baby schemes to cover me even at something like needful $30,000/year level, I would feel very insecure indeed.

The article you linked was interesting. It did remind me a bit of my relationship with my "ex", because I did help him a lot with his various business dealings, such as landlord/tenant disputes and a major lawsuit he filed, etc. But, I was always prepared to dump him if necessary. IMO, the issue in that article is the young woman's struggle defining her own values and boundaries. The external power differential only served to highlight her internal struggle. The only time in my life I have been well and truly stuck in a relationship with a man was when I was married with children and I couldn't give up my desire for a "happy family" in the face of my husband's extreme dysthymia and borderline alcoholism. Having to hustle up a few bucks to buy a bus ticket away from a man you are financially dependent upon is easy-peasy-lemon-breezy compared to overcoming emotional dependencies.

Another more general point I might make which would be relevant to this thread topic is that it has been my experience that my "contracts" I have made independently with men have not proven to be any more risky than most other contracts. For instance, the power differential between me and Jeff Bezos was an issue when he suddenly changed the terms of my business contract with him and then did not cash me out for months. My business partnership with my sister became very problematic when she literally went temporarily insane and threatened me with violence. My relationship with the city in which I owned property became problematic when they forced me to remove my camper from my property due to stupid code. The corporation I used to work for went bankrupt several years after I quit, leaving many of my former co-workers who had been there for decades reeling. Maybe inflation will raise ugly head and wipe out all the savers...etc. etc.etc.

There is a sort of lingering mythology from 1970s era feminism that depending on your husband/man for support is extremely risky; as if every woman has the story of -the guy who she worked as a secretary to put through med school only to be dumped for younger woman once his practice was successful- running through her head. Nobody thinks about the story of the woman whose husband left her for younger woman and he felt so guilty he gave her way more than half of joint assets and the week after the divorce was final, she went out and got a very good job at the phone company after being a homemaker for 20 years, and two years later married another affluent man (true story and not unusual.) The truth is that mindlessly depending on any one source for your support without multiple exit strategies is extremely reckless, and this is true no matter what your inherent risk tolerance might be.
so, it’s obvious you need your own garden, but you can’t count on someone buying it for you.

so—what would be the strategy for that scenario? is there a way that you can build it on your own? i think that’s the foothold that would let you operate more freely.
Physical boundaries do not equal psychological boundaries. I have already attempted to do just this with my last permaculture project which I purchased right after breaking up with my "ex" and also my business. The simple fact of legally owning something does not imply the ability to say "This is mine. Stay the fuck out." and to some extent the ability to say this negates the need to legally own and/or literally physically separate realms of operation. So, I think working on my ability to maintain strong psychological boundaries is more important than my need to save up money to buy another chunk of property and, in fact, doing the second might be simply a way of avoiding working on the first.

Also, to the extent that physical boundaries are valuable beyond strong psychological boundaries, I am very much interested in the puzzle of how to do office/garden/library/study/lab/workshop/studio/supply-cabinet/etc. space as minimalist modules. I quickly brainstormed a list of 100 very random projects, then I made a list of all the resources/supplies/tools that would be required for all of these projects so that I could see how much they overlap. First thing that popped out of this exercise was that a budget for the expense of rotating (buying then selling) specific tools and supplies will be necessary unless I want to own a barn. I think the next step in this exercise should be getting realistic about time constraints limiting my ability to do every project I might want to do before I die or otherwise become completely decrepit. I think looking mortality in the face also makes it easier to set and maintain boundaries with other people. I know a lot of people wish they had spent more life-energy on relationships on their death beds, but I, like many middle-aged women, have already spent a lot of life-energy on relationships, and I want to spend more life-energy on my own projects. Well, at least if/until I get a grand-baby. So, any old guy(s) I get involved with at this point in my life is basically going to have to be content with 3rd fiddle status at best, no matter what variety of assets he might have to throw in the pot.

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:54 am
...boundaries...
thanks for the thorough reply! super interesting story. also i notice the difference between our perspectives: my psychological ability to cut off people is 100%. i’ve actually literally kicked people out of my house—i mean foot to ass, gtfo, now, lol.

so my own personal concerns are about being materially trapped. e.g.,for money: having to sit near an annoying coworker who wont shut up, but my paycheck depends on it, hahahaha. yikes! but also, in relationships, being trapped like you were while raising kids. no bueno.

rather than address things in detail i’ll just address the larger points. i guess i’m looking for big ideas here.

i understand the difficulties posed by contracts, and this is why i prefer not to have them. but if i am to have an agreement, then i prefer that it be clearly spelled out and formally agreed upon. knowing exactly what you’re getting into helps prevent abuses. this is why you always read the contract and if it’s no good then you say no.

informal agreements are okay for low amounts: can you spot me a 20? sure, pay me back when you can.

if we’re buying a home or starting a business i want signed fucking documents with a notary public seal and other assurances. same thing if i give 50% of my earnings to an index fund: i want legal guarantees. sure, there’s always enron and bernie madoff. still, we want to minimize risk when the stakes are high.

the in-between failures (low but annoying stakes) populate judge judy type shows: i cosigned for a car and they smashed it, they had use of my cell plan and racked charges, etc.etc. this is why they’re comedic.

my take on the article is not so much that the writer had a conflict of values—we all have those, that is not new. the salient aspect for me is how the money as the sole motivator forced the compromise of values, and how the rich employer played games with her due to informal agreements. for a while he played her like a violin, dangling promises of riches, shorting her 100 bucks to then show up with a pile of money, etc., then getting her to participate in crimes.

this is my problem also with entering intimate arrangements for profit: the money distorts the relationship, the power differential becomes oppressive. material dependence breeds psychological dependence. which is not to say that this is not part and parcel of the history of civilization, so, nothing new. but for our modern sensibilities, it invites #metoo scenarios (“my career depended on it, so i fucked harvey weinstein”).

if psychological boundaries are important, then they are much more likely to exist among equals who are free to walk away from the deal.

then again, there are good and lucky cases, which sure, may happen, the kindhearted mistress gets the yacht, but ultimately it’s more of a speculative investment than a solid plan.

the theory is that maybe 5-10% of your portfolio could be allocated to such things depending on risk tolerance. forex, unknown biotech firms, cryptocurrencies, etc., fine. the menzes with the boats might fit in this category. but i’m missing the other 95% of your portfolio, other than being a good saver. good savers still need to pay copays and deductibles, in merciless cutthroat america. maybe i’m misreading your posts because the information is not in one place, but it reads to me like lentil baby is your primary plan at the moment. which, i understand the current situation, but i’m not seeing a non-lentil way forward.

now the other thing is that to help develop those psychological boundaries maybe it’s important to develop something that is solely yours? it doesn’t have to be a piece of land necessarily. it can be a business or a career or an rv with a hydroponic installation or a website or a book you’re writing or something, but it has to be yours. what i’ve been reading is that your book business was with your sister whose problems got in the way of business. the permaculture you were trying to sell recently was with a partner and the partner wouldn’t buy it or something. there’s always someone in it with you.

so there’s always someone getting on the way. which is nice when you can collaborate and the partnership works, but partnerships have their downsides too. so if all you have is informal partnerships you’re not well diversified.

i guess the conclusion that i’m drawing from this online brainstorm i’m doing right now, is that maybe you need to make something of your own with no partners or supporters so that you can develop material and psychological boundaries simultaneously? i mean, doing on purpose, for that purpose.

we’re material beings, psychology is not abstractions, it’s just the mental aspect of our material reality. you can’t develop psychological boundaries without material boundaries. otherwise we’re talking about dissociation.

i really liked your story of the gardener and the sculptor because it looked like each had their own realm, it resonates because it has psychological as well as material boundaries.

im guessing if the sculptor had owned the garden and the gardener was just borrowing the land, the sculptor might have showed up midweek with a truck full of junk cuz he didn’t have a place to store it, so can you please move those beds over there? sorry, it will be just that corner.... (then returns next month with another load).

again, the garden/realm is metaphorical, it can be anything not just a garden, but whatever it is it has to be yours, your own, alone, and the buck stops with you, and even as you cultivate partnerships elsewhere, formal or otherwise, you have something that is materially and psychologically yours and yours alone and it gives you a “center” for healthy boundaries.

does that make sense, or am i completely off the mark?
Last edited by Alphaville on Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

bigato
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by bigato »

This is a replay of the discussion we had at greenfield's thread, and is very amusing to read. Please go on.

Alphaville
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

bigato wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:27 am
This is a replay of the discussion we had at greenfield's thread
there are indeed common themes in my pattern of thought (formal vs informal agreements, risk management) which i’ve been developing lately, but i don’t see the same thing at all. two very different people, very different situations :)

eta: check out this classic essay, free of charge (donation optional) https://www.globalgreyebooks.com/room-o ... ebook.html

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