'Ishmael' Trilogy by Daniel Quinn

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Jin+Guice
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'Ishmael' Trilogy by Daniel Quinn

Post by Jin+Guice »

This book has come up a few times around here but I didn't see a thread on it. I'm finishing up "The Story of B," which is the 2nd book in the trilogy and then I'll start "My Ishmael," probably tomorrow? I got the recommendation for the book and Quinn's work from the hobostripper's blog, which I'd also recommend (though it's ancient by internet standards).

For those who haven't read any of the books, the thesis is that humans lost their ecological roots in the agricultural revolution. This resulted in the recent (as in past 10,000 years) population explosion and the idea that man was meant to rule the biosphere. It's also resulted in basically everything that we as modern day humans know: culture, social customs and traditions, technology, history etc...

His conclusion is that the laws of ecology are equal to the laws of physics, and that we as modern humans in defiance of ecological laws, will face the same fate as someone who attempts to defy the law of gravity by walking off of a cliff, if only on a longer time scale.

The books have been blowing my mind, the argument they make are simple to understand, but I'd never considered "modern" problems from this perspective. It's also depressing, because it's doubtful that I'm willing to make the changes the book implies necessary on a personal level. Enacting them on a global level would obviously be currently impossible.

Quinn discusses modern religion throughout the book, particularly Christianity. While I did find his indictment of all modern religions as religions that assumed earth belonged to man as well as his takes on the Garden of Eden and Cain and Abel stories interesting, I felt that his emphasis on religion was a weakness. He spends a lot of time bashing religion without furthering his thesis and I think it dilutes his message.

The other weakness of the book is the appeal to the "noble savage." The characters who argue for Quinn's beliefs always take care to deny that they are appealing to this trope, but they spend little time articulating the difference between their ideal and the archetype. I wish he'd explored the pre-agricultural world and it's people in greater depth and focused less on his sparse theory of modern religion.

These are minor criticisms, and I highly recommend the series to anyone interested in these topics. "Ishmael" contains the bulk of Quinn's ideas and it's not necessary to read the other books unless you're interested in hearing more discussion and a rephrasing of the ideas espoused in "Ishmael."

Has anyone else read the book(s)? What did y'all think of them?

jacob
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Re: 'Ishmael' Trilogy by Daniel Quinn

Post by jacob »

I read them 18 years ago and they're part of the ERE foundation---why I started on all this---that I tend not to talk about because I know how disturbing the implicit ecological consequences are for those who are not ready for them. It's part of the ERE conspiracy if you will.

The minor criticism is valid, but considering when DQ wrote them, it was groundbreaking stuff at the time. You'll find a lot of this verified scientifically now in more modern "popular non-fiction" works. See "deep history". But yeah, seeing one's religion in that light is bound to be disturbing.

Fun fact: DQ is also suspected of being the ghost/pen writer of 7wb5's favorite book.

Jin+Guice
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Re: 'Ishmael' Trilogy by Daniel Quinn

Post by Jin+Guice »

@jacob: It's not that I think Quinn should ignore religion or that I think he's incorrect or what he's saying is uninteresting. My critique is that he spills a lot of ink taking a shallow and unnecessary swipe at the popular modern day monotheistic religions. I think this is bound to alienate a lot of people and isn't extremely relevant to his message. I'm not saying it should be excluded, but his ideas on the subject aren't that broad or central to his thesis and I wish he'd devoted those words to expanding on other topics. As you said, it's ultimately a minor criticism.

I found this book to be somewhat at odds with ERE as it was my feeling that Quinn is in favor of a massive cultural shift, while ERE is a way to optimize living within the cultural with a (not always revealed) eye towards ecological consequences. I got the impression that Quinn feels all attempts to live within the culture are counterproductive, although he is short on solutions.

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Re: 'Ishmael' Trilogy by Daniel Quinn

Post by jacob »

I also think it's bound to alienate a lot of people but I also think it's highly relevant to his message. After all, even if most humans---pragmatically speaking---don't typecast into what is generally thought of as religion: practically every human in the developed world still treat the foundation of society religiously. It's just that the belief in gods has been replaced by the belief in technology provided by "them" and providence has been replaced by the belief in eternal technological progress. Meanwhile, humans haven't changed all that much. We don't understand 95% of the technology we depend on. It's remains magic.

Human performs some ritual in front of a microwave oven. It heats the food. Human has no clue why. Just expects it to work and keep working. If it breaks, faith will provide a new oven. Or at least so we think.

There are two kinds of cultural shifts: moral and natural. Moral is when humans know and make a choice. Natural is when the choice is made by nature. I don't think humans are sufficiently evolved to make moral choices.

ERE was designed for living within the current cultural while also being prepared for the next massive not-just-cultural shift insofar it is fully adopted. It was the best strategy I could think of at the time, ten years ago.

Jin+Guice
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Re: 'Ishmael' Trilogy by Daniel Quinn

Post by Jin+Guice »

I agree with what you're saying about how secular society mirrors religious society and has not escaped belief in magic or the mythical. I liked how he discusses the mythology of our society. I still wish he presented his arguments with less emphasis on modern religion and more emphasis on points like the ones you brought up. I'm also currently reading "The Story of B," where he really doubles down on the religion bashing. The main character is a priest!

I think my distaste is stemming from viewing ecological issues as lefty issues and leftists also having a problem with organized religion. It feels, to me, like he's injecting some politics that aren't necessary.

I hear you that this was super fucking ground breaking in 1996, it's still fucking mind-blowing even with climate change and peak oil being much more mainstream.



Personally, I find ERE much more enlightening and helpful than Ishmael. Ishmael more immediately blew my mind, like, "fucking fuck, I never thought of it this way at all, my eyes are opened," but what can I do with that information? It basically shits on everything I've ever known and gives nothing but the vaguest idea of what should be done. Even if I came up with a program of personal action from the book, it would be basically worthless unless I could convince most other people to do it. OTOH, ERE outlines a relatively easy guide, that I was able to start immediately, that also helps prepare for future ecological disasters. It's also 100% beneficial in the absence of ecological collapse.

Have you thought of a better strategy in the last ten years?

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Re: 'Ishmael' Trilogy by Daniel Quinn

Post by jacob »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:54 pm
Have you thought of a better strategy in the last ten years?
It's been work in progress going on and off for the past three years.

I absolutely agree that most such books/works stick to describing the problem but leaves the reader hanging as to what to do about it. On the flip side, it's also been frustrating to see many forumites deliberately stopping around Wheaton 4-5 and primarily adopting only the financial aspects of it(*). This will not suffice for "ERE2.0". Of course it's not for me to say what people should or shouldn't do. It just makes me wonder whether or not to focus shopping the "ERE expansion set" (Wheaton 8-9 if you will) elsewhere where there's less focus on budgets and investing.

In fairness lately it's been encouraging to see the deeper dives into the ERE mechanics spurred on by the "semi-ERE faction" on the forums.

(*) Add: Of course, here I'm demonstrating the typical attitude that Wheaton-1 just ought to try a little harder :-P

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Re: 'Ishmael' Trilogy by Daniel Quinn

Post by jacob »

BTW, there's a non-fiction follow-up to the trilogy. Actionable, it is unfortunately not so much. Or at least not until it's too late.

https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Civilizat ... 609604902/

7Wannabe5
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Re: 'Ishmael' Trilogy by Daniel Quinn

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

It's also possible that I own the only extant copy of this book which is entitled "The Discard Market: Your Way to Wealth." I think a good many people discover ecology by way of trash picking.

Jin+Guice
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Re: 'Ishmael' Trilogy by Daniel Quinn

Post by Jin+Guice »

@jacob: ERE 2.0?!? My interest is piqued. Any idea when you're going to be finishing/ releasing it?

Early retirement is a truly novel way to approach ecological awareness. On one hand, it's a great sales pitch and it's highly actionable. Selling people on using less resources for the environment is hard. Selling people on using less resources for themselves... brilliant. The sales pitch is also the weakness though. If you tell people you've figured out a way to get out of working, a lot of people will show up just to get out of working.

It's also fucking hard to go up Wheaton levels. I'm not sure I've gone up 1 in the year I've been here. I think the trouble of going past Wheaton level 4-5 is the efficiency vs. resilience trade off. After level 4-5 you have to start DIYing a lot of stuff, which is less efficient, under current conditions. If you aren't yet convinced of a coming ecological/ economic collapse and/ or that, just like spending less money, knowing how to DIY stuff will just make your life better, then it's easy to get stuck. I still have trouble motivating myself to DIY shit I'm not extremely interested in.

Thanks for the tip on Beyond Civilization, it's on it's way from the library.

@7w5: Sounds like it's now your duty to PDF it and send it to me...



Some more thoughts on the book: Part of their take on religion is that all modern religions assume man is flawed and has to be redeemed. I never thought of it that way but it is true. Secular society assumes it too, everyone is too... and not enough... and if only they could...

I struggled for years with depression, but now I know it was just societies fault... society.


The truly unnerving thing about the book is that it asserts that everything our culture has done is wrong and misguided. Our society has done a lot of awful things, but it's done a lot of great things, and it's hard for me to imagine living in a world without the great things. Sadly the books also asserts that our society must be doomed, by ecological law. Now I'm depressed.

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Re: 'Ishmael' Trilogy by Daniel Quinn

Post by fiby41 »

I read Ishmael 4 years back. If I could go back I'd pick to read an evolutionary psychology/ evolutionary biology book instead, because they are more generalised and broader in their approach.
Mean Genes, the Selfish Gene, Sex at Dawn, etc.

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Re: 'Ishmael' Trilogy by Daniel Quinn

Post by jacob »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:03 pm
@jacob: ERE 2.0?!? My interest is piqued. Any idea when you're going to be finishing/ releasing it?
Not really... tough coming up with a [similarly individual] sales pitch for the problem I'm trying to solve.

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Re: 'Ishmael' Trilogy by Daniel Quinn

Post by Ego »

I can imagine it is nearly impossible to convince people to make drastic changes after they've concluded that we are basically screwed regardless of what we do.

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Re: 'Ishmael' Trilogy by Daniel Quinn

Post by chenda »

Religion I'm sure will be part of the solution to collapse, or at least the reaction to it. When the old gods fail us, we will need new ones.

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Re: 'Ishmael' Trilogy by Daniel Quinn

Post by jennypenny »

Ego wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:52 pm
I can imagine it is nearly impossible to convince people to make drastic changes after they've concluded that we are basically screwed regardless of what we do.
We're not individually screwed even if we might be collectively screwed.

Besides, wasn't Frankl's whole point that the meaningful part of life happens regardless of circumstances?

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Re: 'Ishmael' Trilogy by Daniel Quinn

Post by Ego »

@jenny, you know I agree with you. I was commenting on the premise of the books, which I have not read...
Jin+Guice wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:45 pm
His conclusion is that the laws of ecology are equal to the laws of physics, and that we as modern humans in defiance of ecological laws, will face the same fate as someone who attempts to defy the law of gravity by walking off of a cliff, if only on a longer time scale.

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Re: 'Ishmael' Trilogy by Daniel Quinn

Post by vexed87 »

Realising that "we" as in our dominant culture is screwed, aka catastrophism/climate fatalism is what opens you up to the possibility of the seemingly impossible. If anyone here is there already, it's time to get your hands on Climate - A New Story by C Eisenstein. It was a great book. Sounds like I need to get my hands on this trilogy too as they seem to share similar themes.

Jin+Guice
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Re: 'Ishmael' Trilogy by Daniel Quinn

Post by Jin+Guice »

Alright, I just finished the trilogy along with "Beyond Civilization." "My Ishmael" and "Beyond Civilization" focus much less on religion. So that minor critique can be revoked for these two books.

I don't think it's necessary to read all three books to get Quinn's ideas. However, if one enjoys Quinn's writing and/ or likes having a topic they're thinking about pounded into their heads, then the trilogy is a worthwhile endeavor. Both of those things are true for me, so I recommend all three books.

Beyond Civilization was interesting. As Jacob says, this is his non-fiction, somewhat more actionable response to: "Damn Quinn, my mind is blown, but wtf are we supposed to do with all of your monkey business."

The answer Quinn came up with is "I dunno, you figure it out, I certainly haven't, but also...tribes." Compared to Ishmael, it's pretty weak, but it' still worth a read because it addresses the solutions instead of just the problems (which is always harder anyway). The whole thing reminded me of a conversation I had with my drug dealer after he turned me on to the transition towns movement: "Ya man, it's the kind of thing that'll probably work out pretty well if you tried it with 5-10 people, but would probably go pretty badly if you try to make everyone do it." Which is sort of Quinn's point, which I sort of support.

Not surprisingly this falls short on averting global catastrophe. Quinn's idea is that if a few people successfully and demonstrably find a better way to live then they will be copied by a few thousand who will then be copied by a few hundred thousand... which is also honestly not a bad point.

From the viewpoint of the trilogy + Beyond Civilization, the ERE book could be seen as a more complete attempt to build the kind of lifestyle that Quinn is advocating. It's lacking in the social element (again tribalism), which could possibly be accomplished if the author were to start a forum discussing the ideas put forward in the book...

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Re: 'Ishmael' Trilogy by Daniel Quinn

Post by Jin+Guice »

Are there any other books in this vein anyone can recommend?

Either "extreme" environmentalism or examining pre-agriculutral human history. I feel dumb for not realizing this, but before I read this book it didn't occur to me that most of human history took place before the advent of widespread agriculture and "civilization."

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Re: 'Ishmael' Trilogy by Daniel Quinn

Post by Quadalupe »

Have you read Sapiens, by Harari?

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Re: 'Ishmael' Trilogy by Daniel Quinn

Post by jacob »

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1476754349/ has an interesting chapter on "big history" and civilizations.

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