Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships

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Lemur
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Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships

Post by Lemur »

Has anyone here read this book and would like to recommend or not recommend?

The bestselling "Games People Play" is the book that has helped millions of people understand the dynamics of relationships, by psychiatrist Eric Berne. We all play games. In every encounter with other people we are doing so. The nature of these games depends both on the situation and on who we meet. Eric Berne's classic "Games People Play" is the most accessible and insightful book ever written about the games we play: those patterns of behaviour that reveal hidden feelings and emotions. Wise and witty, it shows the underlying motivations behind our relationships and explores the roles that we try to play - and are forced to play. "Games People Play" gives you the keys to unlock the psychology of others - and yourself. You'll become more honest, more effective, and a true team player. "A brilliant, amusing, and clear catalogue of the psychological theatricals that human beings play over and over again". (Kurt Vonnegut). Eric Berne was a prominent psychiatrist and bestselling author. After inventing his groundbreaking Transactional Analysis, he continued to develop and apply this new methodology leading him to publish "Games People Play". This became a runaway success and Berne leaves a remarkable legacy of over 30 other books and articles, as well as the founding of the International Transactional Analysis Association. Dr Berne's other works include "Principles of Group Treatment", "A Layman's Guide to Psychiatry and Psychoanalysis'", and "What Do You Say After You Say Hello?" He died in 1970.

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Re: Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships

Post by jacob »

Recommended. Transactional analysis is pretty spiffy.

Scott 2
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Re: Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships

Post by Scott 2 »

I liked the concept that each person has a game, the examples hammered it home. Beyond that, it wasn't practical for me to memorize the individual games and draw upon them in day to day interaction.

I got a lot more out of The Five Love Languages.

Loner
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Re: Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships

Post by Loner »

I didn't get a lot out of it in part because it always appeared obvious to me that people did things for reasons that are different from their explicitly-stated reasons ("games"). I found Robert Greene's books (Seduction, 48 Laws) much more interesting in that they show clearly : 1) how people will try to manipulate you; 2) why they do it; 3) how to defend yourself.

I guess the book will be more or less interesting depending on where you are starting and what you want to learn. If I remember well, it's a short read, so you might as well just skim it and see.

Stahlmann
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Re: Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships

Post by Stahlmann »


Toska2
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Re: Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships

Post by Toska2 »

Has anybody been able to change how a person talks to you, in particular from Parent to Adult?

This "I am right because I am older." is wearing on me as I reach middle age. I am getting grief over things I did 5, 10 years ago that have just come to light. If we could talk like adults I would have included them in the decision making process.

ertyu
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Re: Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships

Post by ertyu »

Toska2 wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 8:53 pm
Has anybody been able to change how a person talks to you, in particular from Parent to Adult?
Trying to right now, but in my experience people enjoy the sense of power and knowing better than you that comes with perceived adult-ness on their part. Going to adult-adult would imply you have autonomy and sovereignty to know what is best for you and make decisions for yourself, and also that you have an equal right to have opinions respected -- and clearly we cannot have that.

Also, I assume, as one ages one wants to cling harder and harder to a sense of being relevant, while going from parent-child to adult-adult means having to let go of a sense of relevance one formerly felt.

Stahlmann
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Re: Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships

Post by Stahlmann »

hm.
Last edited by Stahlmann on Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships

Post by fiby41 »

It's possible to bond over a rasa by playing along.

Shrngaar is difficult to give a particular example for so bhaav qualifies it later.
Haasya for a sense of humour/jesterous/light-hearted
Raudra rage/anger
When this results in the silent treatment it is a maun-vrat and should not be confused with shaanta rasa
KaruNaa sorrow/pity born out of empathy/ mercy/kindness
Adopting a stray animal but asking for someone else to take it as a family member won't allow. Asking for pity under the guise of showing karuNa
Veera boldness/courageous/heroism
Getting into arguments at the cashier/pump/with the waiter over something trivial provided an audience
Bibhatsya disgust/apprehension/indignation
On someone else's behaviour
Adbhuta wondrous/unexpected/surprising/eye widening
Secret Santa, gifting gesture
Shaanta tranquility/peacefulness
Reading (separate) books in close proximity to each other

Vaatsalya is the love of a mother direct towards her child
Sneh is the love in affection
Anuraag is unknowingly rooting for the same sports team, worshipping the same gods, following the same system of philosophy,... as that of the beloved
Daasya is wanting to feed and clean after them
Saakhya* is the love in asexual friendship
Maadhurya is the sweetness or cuteness
LaavaNya is the love expressed through naughtiness, it is the kinky type of love, teasing, indignating, patronizing, making fun of
Viraaha which is love in separation, however, is the most intense.

* The language allows for dual number so both mothers/fathers (matarau/pitarau) can be said instead of saying 'with both their parents' or 'to both the mother and the father' every time. Gays LOVE this nifty feature.

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Re: Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships

Post by guitarplayer »

At uni (and earlier in school as well) I always struggled learning important facts that were good to know for the exams, but I was excellent at remembering all the side stories and anecdotes.

What I remember about Eric Berne is that he desperately wanted to become a psychoanalyst, but was not approved by any professional body on some vague grounds of 'not being the right fit' (you can imagine that a psychodynamic paradigm in psychotherapy does not necessarily exercise much objective entry criteria). So he went on and developed his own little 'paradigm' based on some psychodynamic concepts.

I found the book fairly simple and entertaining, definitely when compared to some heavy duty psychoanalytical theories, e.g. Melanie Klein. I feel it is written more on the level of tactics than strategies, sort of 'tips how to make you and the world an 'okay' place.'

I think because of its catchiness and relative simplicity it has established itself fairly well in the psychotherapy world, you can get certified to be a transaction analysis therapist or however these guys call themselves.

ertyu
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Re: Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships

Post by ertyu »

“Not the right fit” = we can tell you are disordered, and in a way that therapy wouldn’t fix (it is pretty common for people with issues to become therapists after getting therapy for them, so it wouldn’t have been something run of the mill. Likely narcissism.).

Loner
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Re: Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships

Post by Loner »

"Fit" can mean that. It's also a word that's used as an euphemism for "Your temperament doesn't match out culture". For instance, if you're not "fun-loving" and you want to work in a business full of extroverts, they'll have you in interview, and then they'll say you don't "fit", i.e., your temperament doesn't math that of other employees/bosses/etc. In that sense, it has nothing to do with competence. I know nothing of Berne, so I can't say, but it might be something like that.

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Re: Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships

Post by Frita »

“Fit” can refer to illegal reasons to reject cantidades too (i.e., age, gender, weight, etc.). Also, it can mean that they don’t think that one will conform to whatever the covert culture is.

Stahlmann
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Re: Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships

Post by Stahlmann »

ertyu wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:42 am
“Not the right fit” = we can tell you are disordered, and in a way that therapy wouldn’t fix
Have you ever skimmed any book on this? Any titles? Scans of cases from (pop-)psychology magazines?
I consider paying somebody to talk with, but I'm trying get prepared to avoid wasting money.

ertyu
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Re: Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships

Post by ertyu »

@Stahlman you mean on how to select a good therapist? The best thing to do would be to go on a forum for people who are the same kind as brainweird as you and ask them for recommendations in your area. But this might be difficult in Eastern Europe. The second best thing to do is to google the types of therapy that work best for people with your diagnosis. Then search for therapists in your area that specialize in this. Talk to them on the phone. Be very very clear what you want from therapy and ask them whether they can work with you on it. Choose one therapist and give them 3-4 sessions.

This is the best I can do, good luck.

Stahlmann
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Re: Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships

Post by Stahlmann »

Not exactly, I mean more the idea how to not behave during the process.
I don't want to get involved in talking to someone and... not having the benefit of this.
I assume there's part on me that I can do now. And there're parts on therapist side (let's say from my I-wanna-know-everything-smartass-perspective https://blog.krolartur.com/czy-coach-lu ... rzyjaciel/)

I worry that I'm gonna: [I did addiction theraphy and lady told me that we can work only on what is recalled during session, interesting point. I'm not pathological liar, but... I tend to defend my ego], be too skeptic and be too shy.

I simply realized that my mental health is also some kind of capital. Being idiot/INTP/whatever combo of my "X factors" is on the level of "will this Y amount of money spent on this increase value of my total web of goals? Will I change myself this time?"

After typing the post: ok, in the end ertyu answered my post. Hmm. There's some communication problem I create/encounter on this forum. Hmm.

ertyu
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Re: Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships

Post by ertyu »

Ah, OK, I understand. Here are some things that are necessary to make the process actually work.

1. Don't expect that simply attending the sessions will "fix" you. This is kind of a carry-over from medicine proper: you show up at the doctor's, you get your pill, you have your surgery, wait wait wait, fixed. The doctor does, your job is to wait it out until you get better and not interfere with the process. This is not the same in therapy. In therapy, you do the work, you report the results from having done the work, and the therapist directs next steps and discusses the results with you.

2. What does it mean "to do the work?"
2.1 Show up regularly, show up on time. If you are given "homework" exercises, do them. Different therapeutical approaches have different types of "homework" and different amounts of it. But for therapy to work for you, you need to actually do it.
2.2. Most important for all therapy styles Look into the "second order" thoughts, and truthfully admit them to yourself and to your therapist.

This will be an essay. Strap in.

What do I mean by "second order thoughts"?

You are starting to get to it yourself above, but I will give a couple of examples. You say, "I tend to defend my ego, be too skeptic, or too shy." Let's take these one by one.

Therapist: says something that makes you want to defend your ego.

First order reaction: Stahlman defends his ego. Idk exactly how you do it, but common ones include bragging, making shit up that isn't really true but puts you in positive light, trying to avoid the question, attacking the person asking the question or being confrontational, etc. You may do one of these, or maybe you do some other form of ego defense, I don't know. Result from first order reaction: the attack on your ego has been neutralized and the uncomfortable feeling is gone or reduced. 0 personal growth has been achieved.

Second order reaction:

When the therapist says something that feels like an attack to your ego, you notice this. Instead of proceeding with a knee-jerk defensive first order reaction automatically, you notice the moment where what the therapist said is really making you want to defend your ego. You stop at the moment of feeling like your ego has been attacked, and you stay there. You say something like, "what you just said is making me want to defend my ego by [insert thing you feel like doing]. For example:

"When I have to talk and you listen, I feel put on the spot and uncomfortable, and this is making me want to not report my experience truthfully" (or, to only want to report my experience in a superficial manner; or, to report my experience in a way that I will come out looking well, etc -- idk what exactly it makes you).
"When you say that if I put myself out there, I will make friends, I have a very hard time believing that because it's not what usually happens." (skeptic).

There are many many many possible examples but I hope I have given you an idea of what "second order" reactions look like. They all have the same parts:

1. You notice that an automatic first-oder reaction is about to be triggered.
2. You pause. You do not proceed with the first order reaction. If there is an unpleasant or uncomfortable feeling, you simply sit and experience the feeling in your body instead of attempting to push it away or remove it.
3. You report on your experience to the therapist.

Usually, when you do this, a chain will happen. The therapist will ask you questions or will repeat parts of what you said to hopefully get you to experience the next part of your chain. A chain might look something like this (your chains might be different).

You: "I don't really want to tell you about myself."
T: "You don't want to tell me about yourself."
You: "Yeah."
T: "What do you think might happen if you told me about yourself?"
You: "I might be revealed as inferior or less-than."
T: "And what would it mean if you were revealed as inferior and less-than and I saw it?"
You: "It might be true"

[again, this is just an example, yours might be completely different]

A different person's chain might go like this:

You: "I don't really want to tell you about myself."
T: "You don't want to tell me about yourself."
You: "Yeah."
T: "What do you think might happen if you told me about yourself?"
You: "I will end up looking bad and you might think, "oh wow what a pathetic loser."
T: "You're afraid I might think you're a loser."
You: "Yeah. You might think that I am a damaged human being and something is wrong with me. The possibility that my flaws will be seen and judged make me feel ashamed when asked to talk about myself, so I want to avoid it."
T: "What is this feeling of being ashamed like for you? Can you describe how you feel it in your body?"
You: "It's like a pulling-in in the middle of my chest. Like I want to breathe less and turn away."
T: "A pulling-in in the middle of your chest."
You: deep breath in and out --- this usually feels like the feeling "letting up" and is true transformation. If you feel it you'll know it because it feels like lightness and freedom and it's awesome.
T: Can you take a small risk? Tell me something small about yourself which is a risk, but not that big of a risk."

etc.

A book that helped me to learn how to experience my emotions is Focusing by Eugene Gendlin. It's an old book, so pdfs and epubs are easy to find on most sites, and it is exactly about this. EG asked himself the question, "what makes some people actually heal and change in therapy while other people can go to therapy for 10 yrs and nothing's different?"

He next had many many graduate students go through many many therapy session transcripts and basically found out that the people who benefitted were those who (a) could access their second-order reactions and feel their feelings in their body and stay with them, and (b), had therapists who knew this was a thing and worked with it.

The book is about how to take the time to go through your chains of second order reactions by yourself or with a friend. I did a lot by myself. I don't have a friend to do it with, but while doing it by myself, I can have my inner voice in my head tell me what a friend would have said. But, we come back to 1. You have to do it regularly and often ;)

That's what I have for this. Enjoy essay.

Laura Ingalls
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Re: Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships

Post by Laura Ingalls »

I should read this. I never have although I think I have probably heard the ideas since before I could read.

My late father taught the concepts in this book to his high school work study students in the 1970’s and early 1980’s. It was a framework for many conversations at the supper table during my childhood. I think it is also a good intrapersonal and interpersonal framework. I.e. am I talking to my adult son in an adult/adult fashion?

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Re: Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships

Post by jacob »

@ertyu - It seems like the value-add from the therapist is providing external meta-cognition and eventually internalizing/uploading it into the patient. It's quite conceivable that I'm just projecting my favorite framework (viewtopic.php?p=169390#p169390) of developing human thought be engaging exactly 1 level above their current way of thinking under the presumption that it's almost impossible to skip presuming that each new level builds on the previous. I suppose if I was a therapist, that's the way I'd go about it. Ditto when it comes to seeking out such people to learn from.

Using that lens, Games People Play reduces to "Adult = Resolution of the Parent-Child dialectic".

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