Buckminster Fuller's Energy Slaves [Comic form]

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Buckminster Fuller's Energy Slaves [Comic form]

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:17 am

jacob wrote:Until everybody starts doing it, picking up all the fallen wood and cutting down the remaining forest. Similar dynamics why going deer hunting isn't a good survival strategy. Currently, the woods stay up because of the availability of fossils.
Not exactly true, because order of magnitude different acreage needed for heating-with-firewood vs. surviving on venison solution. Also depends on whether you believe property rights will remain at all respected and what level of government (broadly defined) will remain intact. Owning a few acres of well-managed woodlot would be more than adequate for sustainable family-level use. Although, of course, fire itself would be an increasing risk.

Owning property in the inner city is actually kind of good practice for the apocalypse, because, for instance, I couldn't go to my garden by myself last week, because there was a violent rapist grabbing women off the street a few blocks away. I was also a little bit anxious while gathering blueberries in the woods, because there was bear poop nearby, but since the ratio of human females being mauled by black bears vs. human females being assaulted by human males is about zero, that was just me being silly.

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Re: Buckminster Fuller's Energy Slaves [Comic form]

Post by vexed87 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:56 am

Interesting blog post on impact of renewables on grid viability. https://ourfiniteworld.com/2019/07/31/r ... -mandates/

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Re: Buckminster Fuller's Energy Slaves [Comic form]

Post by jacob » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:51 am

@vexed87 - Tveberg's site is fantastic, but I think that article misses what is an option and not a requirement and that is that future grid service(*) need not remain on-demand 24/7 like it is now. Windmills (the grain milling kind) used to run only but constantly when the wind was blowing but otherwise idle while the miller was doing other things. Changing how we structure our work (away from 9-5) could do a lot to reduce the need for either storage or overcapacity of the intermittent supplies.

(*) Decentralized, it might need even need to remain a grid-service.

RealPerson
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Re: Buckminster Fuller's Energy Slaves [Comic form]

Post by RealPerson » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:25 am

jacob wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:32 am
Probably the PNW, which has its own problems, but there is unfortunately no ideal geography in the US.
Where would be an ideal geography outside of the US?

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Re: Buckminster Fuller's Energy Slaves [Comic form]

Post by jacob » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:57 am

Canada, Scandinavia, Russia, and Scotland in the north.
New Zealand and Chile in the south.

chenda
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Re: Buckminster Fuller's Energy Slaves [Comic form]

Post by chenda » Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:43 am

@jacob - Are you entitled to settle in the Faroe Islands or Greenland ?

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Re: Buckminster Fuller's Energy Slaves [Comic form]

Post by jacob » Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:53 am

Yes, but I'm not sure it's wise to move to remote places that are too small to set up as an autarky especially wrt fuel for food and heating. I don't want to rely on continual shipments of canned food from the mainland. If the ships stop coming ...

7Wannabe5
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Re: Buckminster Fuller's Energy Slaves [Comic form]

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:01 pm

I still think Northern Michigan could work and land is way cheaper than PNW.

bigato
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Re: Buckminster Fuller's Energy Slaves [Comic form]

Post by bigato » Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:10 pm

Well yes I can bike to chile

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Bankai
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Re: Buckminster Fuller's Energy Slaves [Comic form]

Post by Bankai » Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:29 pm

Scotland, how sweet. I might get British passport after all to have this avenue open forever in case I move/go for extended travel.

chenda
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Re: Buckminster Fuller's Energy Slaves [Comic form]

Post by chenda » Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:44 pm

@bankai - property is still very cheap in the far north of Scotland; you can pick up a large rural house with land for £50 000.

Even New Zealand might struggle due to its extreme isolation. I keep looking at this and still think Canada ticks more boxes than anywhere else.

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Re: Buckminster Fuller's Energy Slaves [Comic form]

Post by bigato » Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:53 pm

chenda: except for what should probably be the most crowded zombie invasion in the world, after things turn really bad

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Re: Buckminster Fuller's Energy Slaves [Comic form]

Post by chenda » Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:02 pm

@bigato. Que the fence jokes ;) Though Canada is huge, Scotland is tiny with, relatively speaking, vastly more people squeezed in down south.

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Re: Buckminster Fuller's Energy Slaves [Comic form]

Post by Jin+Guice » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:51 pm

1) I thought the best choice in the U.S. was the northern Midwest, particularly around the Great Lakes. Is this incorrect?

2) I thought the general consensus on this forum was that, for citizens of the rich world, the real collapse was ~40-50 years out, essentially when most of us are dead or very old was likely to be somewhat more gradual than an actual collapse. Is this incorrect?

3) Is anyone actually changing their long-term strategy based on collapse projections? As several have noted, there's not much point investing in current financial markets if large scale financial collapse is imminent. Particularly if we expect it in more like 10-15 years and not 40-50.

daylen
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Re: Buckminster Fuller's Energy Slaves [Comic form]

Post by daylen » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:33 pm

3) I am 24, so I have been operating under the assumption that collapse will happen in my life span. As a consequence I am far less concerned with the financial aspects of ERE than with the generalist/DIY/skills angle.

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Re: Buckminster Fuller's Energy Slaves [Comic form]

Post by AnalyticalEngine » Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:08 am

Realistically, it's impossible to predict with much detail when the collapse will happen. In reality, it's going to manifest in a bunch of local crisis that make the overall system weaker and weaker. Even if Western society doesn't full out collapse in 40-50 years, there's still going to be profound changes. But those changes may or may not happen to you depending on your circumstances. As the saying goes, the collapse is already here; it's just unevenly distributed.

As for investing, keep in mind there are more options than just the financial markets. This is why understanding business and economics is critical. It's possible to still make money in a shrinking economy if you place your bets right. However, it IS an argument against index investing. It's hard to want to be all in the S&P 500 in today's climate.

bigato
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Re: Buckminster Fuller's Energy Slaves [Comic form]

Post by bigato » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:01 pm

Jin+Guice: if a collapse of the financial markets were imminent, all the more reason to be invested in it. Gotta surf the wave, not be engulfed by it. Also as daylen said, make sure you develop useful skills beyond financial. "The most massive extinction episode" since the dinosaurs disappeared is upon us:
https://phys.org/news/2019-07-insect-ap ... chers.html

vexed87
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Re: Buckminster Fuller's Energy Slaves [Comic form]

Post by vexed87 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:12 pm

jacob wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:51 am
Changing how we structure our work (away from 9-5) could do a lot to reduce the need for either storage or overcapacity of the intermittent supplies.
Completely agree, it's just about the only way we could 'extend the glide' during the energy descent. I do wonder whether the approach is compatible with current monetary/resource distribution systems. Reliance on always on electricity is a game changer for majority of what constitutes modern standards of living, not that it would be the end of the world if we changed a few (ok, a lot!) wasteful habits.

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Re: Buckminster Fuller's Energy Slaves [Comic form]

Post by jacob » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:30 pm

@vexed87 - I think this would be easier than it immediately seems at the ground level of "main street". For example, our utility texts us when electricity is particularly cheap (when they're over capacity) in the hope that we'll run our laundry to take some of their load off. Currently, it seems that techmologists hope to fix this with "smart" appliances w/o having to require humans to become cognizant of the usage patterns ... However, I don't think it's too big of a step to change those habits as long as there's proper/immediate feedback on the electricity price.

Of course, the price signal has to be made stronger. Electricity is still ridiculously cheap compared to what it will be. It's like everybody is counting on fusion or dilithium crystals to take over within the next twenty years.

In terms of society at a higher level---the 9/5 stuff---the issue is who takes the risk. Currently, society is structured more in terms of liabilities (bonds and promises) than in terms of risk (equity and rewards). This balance is actually very easy to change technically. All it requires is a major financial crises.
(Also note that usury used to be illegal in the Christian world and still is in the Muslim world .. for that historic reason.)

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Re: Buckminster Fuller's Energy Slaves [Comic form]

Post by ether » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:00 pm

Couldn't Uranium fill the void of petroleum energy needs for atleast 40 years at current consumption levels?
https://www.uselessgroup.org/sankey-dia ... nergy-flow

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