Nice Shout out to ERE

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RealPerson
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Re: Nice Shout out to ERE

Post by RealPerson »

@EdithKeeler

Like you, I pay off my credit cards every month. And I take great advantage of miles accrued on my cards.

I hope this analogy makes it more clear. If I advertised alcoholic beverages on a website catering to a people who used to be problem drinkers, I know that I will cause a percentage of my website visitors to resume drinking. Some will go on to become alcoholics. You could say that every person has to decide whether to drink or not, but you get the gist. Human nature is what it is. We have all seen people who intellectually know credit cards are dangerous, but can't help themselves. It is just how they ar wired.

BTW stores issuing credit cards are not doing this out of altruism. Studies have shown that people spend way more money if they pay by credit card as opposed to cash. I am quite sure that I succumb to that phenomenon.

Most people on this site may be able to monitor their behavior, but when you take it to a large group like the MMM followers, I have zero doubt that credit cards do much more harm than good. MMM generates plenty of money via his website to cover the cost and even to make a serious income, so why throw in affiliate links for potentially really harmful stuff? Why not have affiliate links for terrific bicycles, solar panels, vegetarian products, etc? Those would be congruent with the message, but presumably less profitable. I am simply saying that it would be possible for bloggers to create advertising that supports the message of the blog, instead of simply shooting for the highest possible profit. To me this is an integrity vs profit choice. This is especially important in MMM's case, because his moral high ground in environmentalism and frugality makes his large following less critical of all things endorsed by MMM.

Sorry about the derailment of the thread. Kudos to Jacob for getting his message highlighted in the MSM. I am truly happy that sensible living without excessive consumerism is highlighted to the broader public. Our planet urgently needs it.

prognastat
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Re: Nice Shout out to ERE

Post by prognastat »

@RealPerson

I would say this might fly for someone like David Ramsey who focuses on getting out of debt that people have already gotten themselves into so it is obviously a problem for the people that come to him.

However anyone seriously following MMM I don't think is the same kind of person that follows just Dave Ramsey. Some might graduate from Dave Ramsey to MMM, but I suspect this is a minority as the people that get in to massive debt to purchase a bunch of stuff are unlikely to find even the "meager" life MMM advertises attractive. I also do think he did some posts where he was sent electric bicycle stuff so it's untrue that he doesn't advertise other things he believes can help people. If you are capable of controlling yourself financially enough to achieve a 50%+ savings rate for years like the MMM community would recommend you can control your credit cards. If you are unable to do either of those things you're unlikely to be able to achieve the other as they both require the same of you.

Allagash
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Re: Nice Shout out to ERE

Post by Allagash »

I definitely like this forum way more than MMM. I like that it attracts people that are more out on the fringes. Thanks Jacob for not selling out!

jacob
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Re: Nice Shout out to ERE

Post by jacob »

Reminder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWQsgTD3ifY (also applies to ads or not ads as well as the kinds of ads displayed)

BRUTE
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Re: Nice Shout out to ERE

Post by BRUTE »

Dave Ramsey probably teaches humans to go from Wheaton Level 0 to Level 1 - getting out of debt.
MMM: Level 1, 2 -> 3, 4, some 5s
ERE: Level 3, 4 -> 5, 6, some 7s

plantingourpennies
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Re: Nice Shout out to ERE

Post by plantingourpennies »

Fantastic to see ERE paired with YMOYL.
jacob wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:51 pm
First of all, MMM is a good guy and also legit...In terms of credit cards, recall that he turned down a Chase deal worth $4k/month ...
MMM has also begun to give away large sums of money to charity, as well as plow more money back into a physical location in hopes of spreading the message and have a greater impact in his hometown.
jacob wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:51 pm
I'm at 7k ... but many of you guys are twice that and still hang around here. That's Wheaton levels for you. It's hard not to be somewhat tethered to where your readers are. Especially if you want to keep inspiring them.
I think that the value of ERE is showing the rest of the FIRE community what is possible...and inspiring everybody through that example. As far as popularity vs. influence ERE itself will probably always resemble Velvet Underground instead of U2.

RealPerson
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Re: Nice Shout out to ERE

Post by RealPerson »

plantingourpennies wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:47 am
jacob wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:51 pm
I'm at 7k ... but many of you guys are twice that and still hang around here. That's Wheaton levels for you. It's hard not to be somewhat tethered to where your readers are. Especially if you want to keep inspiring them.
I think that the value of ERE is showing the rest of the FIRE community what is possible...and inspiring everybody through that example. As far as popularity vs. influence ERE itself will probably always resemble Velvet Underground instead of U2.
That is true. My wife is not into ERE. She is frugal but she likes nice stuff. So I am many spending levels above one Jacob. But intellectually, I understand the concepts well and I believe I would be able to implement them. Especially since my wife is slowly coming around to ERE style frugality. Because of my knowledge, abilities and willingness to implement ERE living, I feel that my actual lifestyle does not represent my Wheaton level. That is why I am drawn to ERE and not MMM, even though my lifestyle is more like MMM. I don't get inspired by someone who lives like me. I am inspired by someone who lives like I wish to live.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Nice Shout out to ERE

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I don't think of the $7000/year = 1jacob as being a goal so much as a rule-of-thumb concerning where the definition of "household" starts becoming overly stretched in 21st century U.S. Kind of like it takes that much money minimum to put together and maintain a tax/S.S. identity, a mailing address and a kitchen sink. So, you can kind of sort of continue to do apples to apples analysis down to 1jacob, but then it really devolves.

Jason

Re: Nice Shout out to ERE

Post by Jason »

JLF or any ERE advocate adhering to his specific philosophy using a medium he inveighs against to make money is the text book definition of hypocrisy. The second you say its not, you have lost that basic definition. The ends justifying the means implies hypocrisy i.e. you are merely saying there is a benefit in engaging in an activity that you were initially philosophically opposed to that outweighs the moral or ideological compromise required to engage in said act. I mean please, JLF appearing on FOX News "Manifest Destiny Slavery is Permissible Under Certain Conditions Let's Start a War to Reboot the Economy and If That Ends Let's Fuck As Many American Homeowners as We Can Tuesday Morning Money Report" quoting excerpts from his book is a sailor's knot of hypocrisy that Popeye on a spinach bender couldn't untie.

It doesn't make JLF a bad person. It just makes him a hypocrite. Like, well, everyone who ever spent time on this planet. If you are an indie band playing in your local bar railing against the big record company and then big record comes and offers you a contract and you sign it, you are a hypocrite. If you are an actress who vowed never to do a nude scene but decide the big role that requires it is too much of an opportunity to turn down, you are a hypocrite.

Personally, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest if I saw JLF holding up his DIY rake on The Today Show because (1) I love absurd shit and (2) I am already that hypocrite.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Nice Shout out to ERE

Post by ThisDinosaur »

MMM is not a hypocrite because he makes money off his website. Anymore than JLF is a hypocrite for going back to work in "retirement." I started reading ERE (and stopped reading MMM) because of the pessimism vs. optimism that Jacob mentioned. But one of 3M's most ERE articles was a very optimistic one called "First retire, then grow rich." It talks about using your specialized skill set and interests as part of your diversified income stream. This is in contrast to most of the pf blogosphere that thinks 25 years of index fund moneys and NEVER WORK AGAIN are the only definition of success. Side hustle from a successful website seems legit to me. I'm (just) smart enough to tell his good ideas from the shit I'm being sold.

Jason

Re: Nice Shout out to ERE

Post by Jason »

IMHO, when it comes to ERE, JLF is Thoreau and MMM is Tony Robbins. So to me its a false equivalency.

Admittedly, I have only read half of ERE which is 40% more than I have read of Walden's Pond. I did start reading Emerson which is like a Mick and Keith thing with those two. But I believe that I am acclimated enough with each text to know that on a scale of 1-5 drool stains both ERE and WP demand a five. In the Barnes and Noble of life, JLF belongs in philosophy, MMM in personal finance. Big diff.

If MMM posted a blog entry about how he rode his bike to the Playboy Mansion and banged three bunnies for forty eight hours straight after he bartered to have his wife polish their stripper poles for a year, I wouldn't think any different of him. If JLF appeared on Larry King and told Larry how he could save money by dyeing his eyebrows himself, I would say "Man, that's some hypocritical fucking bullshit right there. God bless him."

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Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Nice Shout out to ERE

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

I would suspect JLF inveighs against the medium(s) because those who control the medium are looking for a sound bite and a cute list of “hacks.”

If the medium were used more creatively, I think it would be possible to honestly present the philosophy.

The issue is the creator, not the medium.

Or are you of the opinion that guns kill people?

suomalainen
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Re: Nice Shout out to ERE

Post by suomalainen »

@MI ha ha ha, your question brought to mind a murder trial:

Prosecutor to medical examiner: "And what is the cause of death?"

ME: "the defendant"

P: "No, I mean what caused the death?"

ME: "That guy sitting RIGHT THERE."

Ha ha ha. Good stuff.

Jason

Re: Nice Shout out to ERE

Post by Jason »

My understanding is that JLF does not like TV because it reinforces the spectator/participant divide which is a central aspect of consumerism. Therefore the very activity of watching television is equivalent to participating in consumer culture.

But in regard to your question, no, I do not believe guns kill people but I do believe analogies used merely to be provocative kills brain cells as well as the possibility of rational discourse.

jacob
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Re: Nice Shout out to ERE

Post by jacob »

@Jason - Ehh, no ... if that were so, then I wouldn't like books either.

I don't like TV because it's 1) one of the least productive way of spending one's time given the low information rate---IOW, it's a time sink; and 2) because the TV format also inherently limits the complexity of the information that's presented. If we plotted a 2D graph with information rate and complexity respectively for different media, TV would sit in one corner of that graph.

However, it all depends on what the medium is being used for. Reducing ERE to a soundbyte about how Larry King should color his eyebrows, no. Doing a full program that treats something in detail, I'll do that. The Minimalist movie has moved a lot of needles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Co1Iptd4p4 ... people who otherwise don't read (and there's a lot of those).

Jason

Re: Nice Shout out to ERE

Post by Jason »

I don't consider the Minimalist movie "TV" in the sense that I consider network or cable news "TV". It's a documentary that can be viewed on a TV. I don't know its history but I'm assuming it was viewed at film festivals before arriving on TV. I don't know how it was financed, but it controls its own message.

The origin of my point was your book appearing on CNBC (I believe) which exemplifies what you just wrote as your reasons for disliking TV and was the basis of my original point.

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Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Nice Shout out to ERE

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suomalainen
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Re: Nice Shout out to ERE

Post by suomalainen »

@MI Never read it, so I don't get it. Cliff notes?

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Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Nice Shout out to ERE

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

@Suo

You can’t ask me to condense a masterwork into a pithy summary. I apologize if the antiquated medium makes for a low information rate. ;)

suomalainen
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Re: Nice Shout out to ERE

Post by suomalainen »

I dunno. I read The Idiot and couldn't bring myself to read anything else he wrote.

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