The Moneyless Manifesto

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jacob
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by jacob »

Enthalpy (the amount of energy that transfers in/out of the subsystem in focus) is the process. Embodied energy (the cumulative inputs to the [sub]system) is the result.

7Wannabe5
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I guess the thing that still confuses me is the calculations related to information and innovation. For example, on the occasion when my imaginary permaculture neighbor Claude Shannon trades me a pamphlet he wrote with huckleberry ink on the topic of making a quick fire starting lens out of ice for a bag of my delicious maple pith crispies.

ZAFCorrection
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by ZAFCorrection »

@Jacob

The problem with most systems to save the world or fix all the problems is hardly anyone can even get through the manual, let alone actually follow the system on the daily. ERE is an obvious example, but even the bastardized FIRE movement has the same problem. At the same time, you need people to think they are saving the world or otherwise being super awesome in order to get buy-in for making even small improvements, so the reasonable choice is hold the bible high and lie, lie, lie.

So Frank Luntz would need to fix the wording released to the public because Low Enthalpy the brand is all about making people feel environmentally conscious while diverting money towards developing technology-facilitating processes with reduced complexity and energy intensity. The people in my neighborhood with "I stand with planned parenthood" signs are probably each good for $50 a year, and future generations would thank us for it.

white belt
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by white belt »

I'm about halfway through the The Moneyless Man now. One quote that stood out to me so far is the following:
Boyle 25 wrote:Most poverty in the U.K. isn't material poverty, it's spiritual poverty, a state of mind in which fulfillment comes only from material gain. Much of the material poverty in places such as Africa stems from the spiritual poverty of the West, as institutions such as the World Trade Organization and International Monetary Fund (IMF) continue to cripple 'developing' nations with debts and restrictions designed to enable western governments to supply the extravagant products and cheap food that we, as consumers, demand.

I wonder about this apparent tradeoff between spiritual poverty and material poverty. Perhaps in terms of Maslow's hierarchy, once physiological and safety needs are met, higher needs like love, esteem, and self-actualization require something more. I think this is the draw for many to things like FIRE and ERE. However, I still think it's the case that the luxury of education, reflection, and stability afforded to Boyle by living in an affluent society is not afforded to the average person in the developing world.

white belt
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by white belt »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:04 am
Also, although I do very much like Boyle, he seems very NF to me. He is very much concerned with how not using modern technology alters his perspective and emotional state. So, although it would be remotely possible for him to, for instance, build a foxhole radio using only native, local materials and the knowledge to be found in an early 20th century pamphlet, he does not make any such attempt. IOW, he is more concerned with aesthetics than exploring the possibilities of closed-loop eco-tech.
This! I just finished Boyle's most recent book, and while it was interesting, the entire time I couldn't quite make sense of why he was so obtuse with his lifestyle rules. Each one of his books is just a waiting game until he destroys a romantic relationship because of his unwillingness to compromise.

Further, I just couldn't get around the fact that Boyle is constantly striving for a lifestyle from ~200 years ago that is neither scalable nor possible in today's world. His success is dependent on his neighbor's affluence and waste. He benefits from the security and prosperity of a fossil-fueled highly developed industrial nation while railing against it the entire time. He can only survive off of catching fish and hunting roadkill deer because no one else around him is doing it. He fetishizes the lifestyles of the old people that live in his area without asking the hard questions about why all of the young people leave in the first place. Maybe the rural farming lifestyle isn't so rosy when you grow up in that world? No idea because Boyle never tries to engage with any of those people.

I much preferred Greenfield's challenge where he grew and foraged all of his own food because it is much more scalable, realistic, and inspirational. I feel like Boyle focuses a lot on what he gives up (technology) rather than what he gains, which is why Greenfield's message is more effective for most people. Notice Greenfield doesn't say he is giving up food from grocery stores, but rather he is producing all of his own food for the year.

All in all, I enjoyed his first book much more but perhaps that's just because I'm somewhere around WL5 and Boyle was much closer to that perspective 10 years ago.

7Wannabe5
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Yeah, Boyle, and some other NF writers on The Situation, does lean a wee bit too Romantic Idealist/Neo-Puritan for me. This is probably due to the fact that I am descended from the family most likely to be accused of witchcraft in the realm near Walden Pond, because they didn't join the religious community, were kicked out of England for being too democratic, and they established the first pub/brewery on the continent. I visited the memorial to one of my "witch" relatives who was hung by the Puritans, and she was such a rational she wasn't even able to defend herself adequately, because she couldn't even believe she was being accused of such a thing. IMO, it would not be better if we go back to such a low-tech village type culture.

Jin+Guice
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by Jin+Guice »

I think the interesting thing about people like Boyle and Greenfield and Jacob is that they are pioneers. Building a system that is replicable and scalable is fucking hard. It's harder when there aren't many people before you who've drawn maps of what it might look like for you to build off of. To my knowledge, Jacob is the only one with the stated goal of building a replicable and scalable system, and his strategy is to inspire many others to build a network of smaller variations based on a core group of ideas/ ideals.

I prefer Boyle's angry Irish pessimism to Greenfield's relentless American optimism, but that's just my temperament. My favorite things about Greenfield are his constant local in-person community engagement and his constant reinvention of himself after he's completed one of his missions. I have noticed that a theme of every one of Boyle's books is that he blows up his romantic relationship from the start of the book halfway through. If you watch interviews with him and Greenfield (there is even one where they are hanging out), it's not hard to imagine that Greenfield is more successful with women and in relationships.
white belt wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:47 pm
His success is dependent on his neighbor's affluence and waste. He benefits from the security and prosperity of a fossil-fueled highly developed industrial nation while railing against it the entire time. He can only survive off of catching fish and hunting roadkill deer because no one else around him is doing it.
white belt wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:47 pm
I much preferred Greenfield's challenge where he grew and foraged all of his own food because it is much more scalable, realistic, and inspirational.

It's really hard not to engage with the industrialism and its requisite massive waste system when it defines everything around you. If the question is whether or not Boyle is playing by his own rules, then maybe this is fair game. But if the question is who is defining the more interesting and important response to the industrial system, where building an adaptive system is much more important than building a specifically perfect system, then they're both doing a pretty good job. Greenfield's forage/ grow experiment is much more difficult in a non-industrial society. His move was to use the industrial waste of several unused grass occupied yards in the exurbs of Orlando, an excess made possible by industrialization and fossil fuels, which he clearly dislikes. It's a lot harder to forage your food when everyone else is doing it too.

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