To which veganprimate wrote:
> If you were female, you'd know the answer to
> that question.
I'm still scratching my head...
Hasn't society passed the point where gender stereotypes are no more?
What is it about gender that would make a difference in discussing ERE?
Presumably you've all seen the BBC documentary on demonstrating the real gender differences (men are risk takers, women are more caring, men are more adept at mechanical skils, women are... well I can't remember, but most of the differences can be overcome with training), so how does that affect discussion of ERE?
"What difference does the sex of a participant make?"
-
George the original one
- Posts: 5406
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
- Location: Wettest corner of Orygun
In another thread discussion this gem of a remark popped out,
The main problem with humanity is that we as a culture is quite primitive. Our technological achievements far outpace our cultural level.
--- beloved "cult-leader" (who else?)
Meditate over that. That will answer the OP automatically.
Despite our "widely-held-and actively-fostered(#)-by-our-own-minds-and-the-media--beliefs", that above remark is very true.
# i wanted to say foisted first
Nature-vs-nurture... but only upto a point.... But another post for another day, that one.
EDIT: I remembered why that remark resonated with me, because I've previously read about it here (Ch. 2, pp 21-24). An observation based on actual psychological studies.
The main problem with humanity is that we as a culture is quite primitive. Our technological achievements far outpace our cultural level.
--- beloved "cult-leader" (who else?)
Meditate over that. That will answer the OP automatically.
Despite our "widely-held-and actively-fostered(#)-by-our-own-minds-and-the-media--beliefs", that above remark is very true.
# i wanted to say foisted first
Nature-vs-nurture... but only upto a point.... But another post for another day, that one.
EDIT: I remembered why that remark resonated with me, because I've previously read about it here (Ch. 2, pp 21-24). An observation based on actual psychological studies.
-
jacob
- Site Admin
- Posts: 15993
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
- Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
- Contact:
It matters whenever a group either is or perceives itself to be a discriminated against on an unofficial level. If you are part of that group, you'd sense this discrimination whereas someone not part of the group would not sense the discrimination.
To summarize: For some, gender stereotypes are alive and well. For others they no longer exist/have never existed.
To summarize: For some, gender stereotypes are alive and well. For others they no longer exist/have never existed.
@jacob,
I truly, sincerely wish to believe what you said is correct. But I have a different take. I am not being pessimistic, I am not challenging your POV and I am not going to defend the writing below. Just another perspective.
Analogy time:
Several Indian Cows are grazing in a meadow. A Jersey cow(s) freshly shipped from NZ is introduced into the meadow.. The other cows did not even bother to gather around this "new" visitor who has different horns, different body patches, more bulky, etc... They went about their "existence" and the Jersey cow went about its own... "Graze, cud-chew, burp-fart, fertilise...". you know the drill! (This was actually an experiement conducted in the 80s in India and printed in a magazine... Something about "Problems with integration and assimilation of Indigenous and Jersey herds in common pastoral/grazing grounds" So I am not making this up)
However, two human beings that come together in ANY circumstances will definitely "compare-notes" and try to "file away the findings", mostly culminating into stereotypes at the end of it all, whether it is the "tautness of a bow string", "bushels of wheat harvested", "squeezing of a toothpaste tube", etc.
As long as humanity will exist, all stereotyping will exist. Gender, cultural, religious,..... and even if we somehow miraculously eliminate ALL of the existing "stereotypable topics", humans will ingeniously invent new stereotypes to be able to do so.
Ces't la vie.
Surio.
---
I truly, sincerely wish to believe what you said is correct. But I have a different take. I am not being pessimistic, I am not challenging your POV and I am not going to defend the writing below. Just another perspective.
Analogy time:
Several Indian Cows are grazing in a meadow. A Jersey cow(s) freshly shipped from NZ is introduced into the meadow.. The other cows did not even bother to gather around this "new" visitor who has different horns, different body patches, more bulky, etc... They went about their "existence" and the Jersey cow went about its own... "Graze, cud-chew, burp-fart, fertilise...". you know the drill! (This was actually an experiement conducted in the 80s in India and printed in a magazine... Something about "Problems with integration and assimilation of Indigenous and Jersey herds in common pastoral/grazing grounds" So I am not making this up)
However, two human beings that come together in ANY circumstances will definitely "compare-notes" and try to "file away the findings", mostly culminating into stereotypes at the end of it all, whether it is the "tautness of a bow string", "bushels of wheat harvested", "squeezing of a toothpaste tube", etc.
As long as humanity will exist, all stereotyping will exist. Gender, cultural, religious,..... and even if we somehow miraculously eliminate ALL of the existing "stereotypable topics", humans will ingeniously invent new stereotypes to be able to do so.
Ces't la vie.
Surio.
---
Stereotyping is a mental shortcut allowing for quick discrimination.
Aha.. Yes, I "get it" in this wording. I am with you now. I assumed (thereby making an ASS out of U and ME )-:) that you were sweeping it away.
Re: Tall men in bicycles = Jacob
LOL!This is an unfortunate animal association (based on the limitation of "animal vision". For example, cows associate cowboys on horses as one person.... When they dismount, it scares the hell out of them) but that is OK. Whereas in my reply, I was speaking more on comparing other "subtle" traits.
The area of discrimination is changing dynamically
How true! You can say that twice!
-
veganprimate
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:25 pm
- Contact:
A person's sex matters, not necessarily due to sexism (although it is still alive and well, albeit in a more subtle form which goes unnoticed by many), but b/c of lived experience.
A person who is raised as a male in this culture lives a different life than someone raised as a female. When people perceive you as a specific sex, race, class, etc. they behave in certain ways towards you. Your behavior combined with the reactions of others shapes you.
A lot of male-to-female trannies are completely taken aback by the way they are treated once they are living as females. They wrongly assume that they are being discriminated against b/c they are trannies. Women have to set them straight all the time. No, you are being treated the way we women have been treated forever. Sucks, don't it?
As for Alex not understanding why sex matters, my guess is age. You're what, 18 years old, something like that? Are you still living with your parents and going to school? I didn't fully grasp my place in society until I was on my own, working, and interacting with people as an adult female (versus having my parents run interference). When I was in school and living at home, things seemed perfectly egalitarian to me (actually, no. My dad never had to do any housework). It's a matter of life experience. This is not a slam on the young. This is simply reality. There is no substitute for aging and life experience.
As far as what sex has to do with ERE...lots. Your sex determines what skills you were probably taught as a kid; therefore, you will have different skills to learn. The things you spend your money on will possibly be different, and the things you will have to give up to save more money will possibly be different.
A person who is raised as a male in this culture lives a different life than someone raised as a female. When people perceive you as a specific sex, race, class, etc. they behave in certain ways towards you. Your behavior combined with the reactions of others shapes you.
A lot of male-to-female trannies are completely taken aback by the way they are treated once they are living as females. They wrongly assume that they are being discriminated against b/c they are trannies. Women have to set them straight all the time. No, you are being treated the way we women have been treated forever. Sucks, don't it?
As for Alex not understanding why sex matters, my guess is age. You're what, 18 years old, something like that? Are you still living with your parents and going to school? I didn't fully grasp my place in society until I was on my own, working, and interacting with people as an adult female (versus having my parents run interference). When I was in school and living at home, things seemed perfectly egalitarian to me (actually, no. My dad never had to do any housework). It's a matter of life experience. This is not a slam on the young. This is simply reality. There is no substitute for aging and life experience.
As far as what sex has to do with ERE...lots. Your sex determines what skills you were probably taught as a kid; therefore, you will have different skills to learn. The things you spend your money on will possibly be different, and the things you will have to give up to save more money will possibly be different.
-
AlexOliver
- Posts: 461
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:25 pm
@veganprimate
I think what you describe IS sexism.
Age could be a part of it, but I think a person's experience varies widely by where they live, what sort of people they spend time around, individual style and personality. I have definitely found that men have very different attitudes toward women both in different parts of the country and different social circles within them.
For me personally, I see the overall statistics on race in this country and conclude racism exists, yet I can honestly say I don't believe it has affected the way people treat me (I'm 31).
While I agree with your assessment that women are frequently treated differently, in both subtle and overt ways, that doesn't explain why it matters on an anonymous web forum about becoming financially independent. No one here knows one's gender unless the person chooses to disclose it, therefor preconceptions can not possibly come into play.
You began to touch on the difference at the very end, but I'd be very interested to hear you elaborate on that, perhaps with some examples.
I think what you describe IS sexism.
Age could be a part of it, but I think a person's experience varies widely by where they live, what sort of people they spend time around, individual style and personality. I have definitely found that men have very different attitudes toward women both in different parts of the country and different social circles within them.
For me personally, I see the overall statistics on race in this country and conclude racism exists, yet I can honestly say I don't believe it has affected the way people treat me (I'm 31).
While I agree with your assessment that women are frequently treated differently, in both subtle and overt ways, that doesn't explain why it matters on an anonymous web forum about becoming financially independent. No one here knows one's gender unless the person chooses to disclose it, therefor preconceptions can not possibly come into play.
You began to touch on the difference at the very end, but I'd be very interested to hear you elaborate on that, perhaps with some examples.
@AlexOliver
some of it starts from the moment a parent decides to buy a blue or pink blanket. It seems so normal, and we take it so much for granted, that we don't even notice it when it's obvious.
Of course, there are really blatant times too, like when my neighbor asked my wife if he could talk to "the man of the house" when he wanted to ask if he could rent some driveway space from us, as though that wasn't a decision she was capable of making without my approval.
some of it starts from the moment a parent decides to buy a blue or pink blanket. It seems so normal, and we take it so much for granted, that we don't even notice it when it's obvious.
Of course, there are really blatant times too, like when my neighbor asked my wife if he could talk to "the man of the house" when he wanted to ask if he could rent some driveway space from us, as though that wasn't a decision she was capable of making without my approval.
For reading, I recommend Woolf's Three Guineas (often companioned with A Room of Ones Own) for a glimpse of what females were up against up until they were allowed to own property/land and to vote.
It's a vastly different world, and the amazing thing is how recently it was that women were not allowed these rights. The right of ownership is barely over 100 years old in England, and the right to vote less than that. We are just now getting to the stage where these experiences are falling out of generational memory (as the elderly who experienced them continue to age and die).
I am uncertain if Woolf's prescription of what we should do is still applicable or not. While women do go to university and have careers, as Woolf recommends, there are still wage gaps for equal work and other inefficiencies.
It's a vastly different world, and the amazing thing is how recently it was that women were not allowed these rights. The right of ownership is barely over 100 years old in England, and the right to vote less than that. We are just now getting to the stage where these experiences are falling out of generational memory (as the elderly who experienced them continue to age and die).
I am uncertain if Woolf's prescription of what we should do is still applicable or not. While women do go to university and have careers, as Woolf recommends, there are still wage gaps for equal work and other inefficiencies.
-
BeyondtheWrap
- Posts: 598
- Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:38 pm
- Location: NYC
I'm a male. I think sex definitely makes a difference when discussing ERE. Women and men have different expenses (granted this is largely because of cultural expectations and not necessarily by necessity). For example, off the top of my head, women would be more likely to need things like makeup, tampons, and birth control pills. Men need to keep their hair shorter. Stuff like that would affect one's expense level, savings rate, and required nest egg.
-
AlexOliver
- Posts: 461
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:25 pm
I also lack a lot of those "feminine" expenses, though I do occasionally spend too much money on my hair. I'm working on quitting the dye and growing it long enough that maintenance will be minimal. In general, I think I personally experience sexism a lot less than say my mother did. Working in a male-dominated field probably helps with this since there's no set protocol about how to treat the ladies. Also, nerdy programmers are usually rational types who are more concerned about a person's thoughts than preconceived gender bias. I tend to socialize mostly with the same types of people. I do plenty of DIY of types associated with both genders. I can put a new roof on my porch and sew decently too.
I do see a few reasons why being female could affect your finances:
1) Gender wage gap
2) Female-targeted items are ALMOST ALWAYS more expensive than their male equivalents - see blue jeans, t-shirts, body wash, shampoo, etc - it's the same materials with a bigger price!
3) Expectations for women to stay home with children
4) Women are not taught some skills that are traditionally male
5) Fashion expectations: this is expensive shoes and makeup
I'd like to think most of this can be overcome simply by being aware and reacting appropriately.
1) Research your worth. Ask for a raise if necessary.
2) Buy a male or gender-neutral item. Shampoo is shampoo whatever it smells like. Thrift-store or make your own clothes.
3) Somebody has to take care of them and day care is expensive. My husband will be a stay at home dad if we have kids.
4) You can learn these things. OK, maybe not lifting heavy things but that shouldn't be a major blocker in your finances.
5) Do you need these things? No.
I do see a few reasons why being female could affect your finances:
1) Gender wage gap
2) Female-targeted items are ALMOST ALWAYS more expensive than their male equivalents - see blue jeans, t-shirts, body wash, shampoo, etc - it's the same materials with a bigger price!
3) Expectations for women to stay home with children
4) Women are not taught some skills that are traditionally male
5) Fashion expectations: this is expensive shoes and makeup
I'd like to think most of this can be overcome simply by being aware and reacting appropriately.
1) Research your worth. Ask for a raise if necessary.
2) Buy a male or gender-neutral item. Shampoo is shampoo whatever it smells like. Thrift-store or make your own clothes.
3) Somebody has to take care of them and day care is expensive. My husband will be a stay at home dad if we have kids.
4) You can learn these things. OK, maybe not lifting heavy things but that shouldn't be a major blocker in your finances.
5) Do you need these things? No.
-
veganprimate
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:25 pm
- Contact:
S said: "1) Research your worth. Ask for a raise if necessary."
I read somewhere that women are sometimes seen as too uppity or arrogant if they ask for a raise. Men are seen as assertive and savvy negotiators when they ask for a raise.
I had a coworker ask for more money when she achieved an educational milestone and she said the HR dude acted like she was completely out of line for expecting more money.
Bakari said: "I think what you describe IS sexism."
Oh definitely, but I was avoiding the S word, b/c like the R word, people don't want to be associated with it. They like to think it no longer exists and/or that they certainly never behave in any S or R ways.
I also agree with you about differing attitudes in different parts of the country and different social circles. I, for example, have experienced next to no street harassment, but from other women have told me, it is a common occurrence for some. I've also never been raped, which is also quite common.
I read somewhere that women are sometimes seen as too uppity or arrogant if they ask for a raise. Men are seen as assertive and savvy negotiators when they ask for a raise.
I had a coworker ask for more money when she achieved an educational milestone and she said the HR dude acted like she was completely out of line for expecting more money.
Bakari said: "I think what you describe IS sexism."
Oh definitely, but I was avoiding the S word, b/c like the R word, people don't want to be associated with it. They like to think it no longer exists and/or that they certainly never behave in any S or R ways.
I also agree with you about differing attitudes in different parts of the country and different social circles. I, for example, have experienced next to no street harassment, but from other women have told me, it is a common occurrence for some. I've also never been raped, which is also quite common.