Hi, European expat in Thailand. Advice/opinions sought

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Gravity's Rainbow
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Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:34 pm

Hi, European expat in Thailand. Advice/opinions sought

Post by Gravity's Rainbow »

European expat in Thailand 8-)

Greetings all. First I would like to say thank you to Jacob, this website really blew my mind when I first discovered it a few years ago and it has been part of a staple diet of such information sources for me ever since. I shall go and buy your book this week, been thinking about it but never get around to actually doing it. I will do it this week.

So, I'm 39 and I came to Thailand from Europe when I was just 22 years old. Incredibly, as it almost seems to me now, I've been here all this time. I came here to start a new life for myself and it has been a real rollercoaster with just so much good and bad but has turned out very well for me in the end.

I am a teacher, been doing this the whole time. I have loved teaching over the years but in recent times the magic has gone. It's still good sometimes but I would like to either never have to do it or just enjoy doing a SMALL amount of it. I am well qualified with a good degree and teaching certs and fairly good at it but 17 years is enough full time teaching for me. As a foreigner, I am not legally allowed to do pretty much anything else. I think Jacob has maybe experienced this before? A foreign owned business is a possibility but they don't usually work out well here and I can't risk it plus I have no business background or ideas right now anyway.

A forced change to having to work evenings and every weekend of the year (save for three) for the past few years has got me debating my next move, this is where I would love to receive any input from ERE minded people. I can only ask for advice here because the normal workers in my life will think I'm nuts or trying to brag or whatever. I need objective input from people on our wavelength. I would also feel shy and awkward revealing such private financial details to people that I know in my real life, it needs to be people on the net who are in this circle!

There's a lot of info so I'll try and summarise it in bullet points to keep it as minimalist as I can, sorry if it's too much:

1) I am married, it's a very strong and happy marriage. wife has good job that she likes in stable field with good benefits. Wife is a Thai national but overseas educated. We have two children, 12 and 6. Because of this, I can always qualify for a visa here, job or not as long as I can show money in bank etc.

2) We own our luxury 200 square metre 4 bedroom and bathroom condo outright, it was a wedding gift and is worth maybe US 300k+ As a gift, we could never really sell it but we can live in it indefinitely of course. There is also a nice huge family house where my parents in law live nearby. We have a couple of rooms there also and would probably be expected to take care of them as they get older in a typically Asian nuclear family way (they are mid 70's now but good health and very active).Any expenses in that would be covered easily by them. So we can live there and often stay there on days off. Point being,although we have to maintain property and the costs that go with that, we have no rent or mortgage and will almost certainly never have to pay one.

3) Wife and I share all bills straight down the middle but otherwise have separate financial lives. Might seem odd to some, but has always worked very well for us. I know my wife is reasonably (maybe quite) wealthy and has old money wealthy and generous parents, I don't know exactly to what extent though. Our biggest expense is kids school fees of maybe 5k US per child, per year. Otherwise our lives are not expensive, we put 500US a month each into the shared account and that covers everything else pretty much.

4) As of the end of this year, I personally will have reached around US200k in my quest to be more free, it's mainly in cash and bonds (not yet ideally managed I know). It's difficult to invest as a foreigner but I can do mutual funds, tax deductible savings bonds (like 401 sort of things) and a few others.I'm learning but anyway as of right now it's mainly cash and only earning between 3-4% a year. I have no debts and we own two new recently bought Japanese cars outright. We typically get ten years min out of a car so no big expenses there for a long time.

5) My job forces me to work all weekend and many evenings so apart from the kid's school runs. I have been seeing less and less of my family and the kid's childhoods in recent years. My wife also has to do a five day work week at a busy job and then do the REAL WORK on the weekends looking after the kids, effectively a brutal 7 day week so that I may be free to go and do my job. She never complains but she is always tired and often gets run down and sick as a result. She is a trooper, what a woman.

6) I have the option to quit my full time contract and just work in the same field with no weekends, picking and choosing a few hours. Even just a few evening classes a week (maybe four at the most) would yield around 1200US per month after tax and this easily covers all my bills and the school fees and even some extra (my work is slightly better paid if done on an hourly basis as they have to make up for no paid holidays and health insurance) Yet strangely, for a full time teaching load at the minute including the horrible hours away from family I only get around 2100 us p.m after tax.Doing more work and hours than the hourly paid 'few classes' 1200us option almost seems to be the negative side of the 'marginal utility' that Jacob recently posted about. If I did this then I wouldn't even be touching the 200k US and could just focus on growing that by letting the 3-4% (or better) just keep compounding on and on. I would have to cover my own basic health insurance but that isn't too bad here at all for basic cover. I am fit and fairly lean and exercise a lot, I'm a veggie and very active, no smoking and rarely drink. My wife and kids still get health cover from her job. This way I would be with my wife and kids most of the time and ALWAYS on weekends. The teaching work I do is bomb proof and recession proof. I work for the best in the field and they are expanding in this economy even. The part time work would always be there and I figure even a full time retiree should 'keep their hand in' with a little job for a few hours a week right?

My wife is tired and I don't like the reality of our lifestyle in terms of hours apart and shifts. It seems nuts to me that for a couple in an otherwise highly fortunate situation we should live like this. I can understand doctors or airline pilots doing those hours for their money but weekends away from family all year round for a 25k annual salary? Seems messed up to me.

I am thinking of this now as a very serious option starting next spring (after I have had my fully paid teacher's long holidays of course!).

Does this sound crazy or would you go for it? I honestly think I could teach two or three classes a week for a long time and even be fairly happy doing it. Teaching is actually fun when you only do small amounts and you aren't overworked and relying on it, that's when my best lessons come! I could do this until I'm an old man if needed, probably would still save maybe 600US pm... worst case scenario is to run with this into my 50's and then I could probably live without even part time work anyway.

Thanks for reading, in return for bothering you all, any questions you need answering about living in Thailand I shall surely try and answer. ;)

GR

PS. Do you see this as 'retirement' in any sense? I kind of do and I'm genuinely grateful for any feedback and opinions from fellow ERE people.

MountainMan
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Re: Hi, European expat in Thailand. Advice/opinions sought

Post by MountainMan »

Sounds like a no-brainer to me! Stable situation, no debt, a solid asset base, a very secure job, a significant pay rise (in terms of hourly wages) if you go part-time, the ability to keep saving a monthly sum which goes a long way in Thailand and last but not least a vastly improved quality of life... You could always try and explore other money-generating ideas with some of the free time gained from going part time, like freelancing, improving investing skills, etc if need be. Seems to me you have very little to lose and a lot to gain!

Gravity's Rainbow
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Re: Hi, European expat in Thailand. Advice/opinions sought

Post by Gravity's Rainbow »

Hi MountainMan,

Thanks for your input, very much appreciated. I'm sorry if it seems like I can't see the wood for the trees. I have started to see it as being a solid plan too but really appreciate an outsider's perspective. The problem is that it seems so easy and obvious (no brainer as you say) that I have been almost wondering where the catch is and feeling trigger shy on going through with it.

I think it's part of getting into the ERE mindset to become aware that it's ok to not work until old age. It's ok to retire or semi retire in your 30's or 40's if you can do it. There's no need to feel guilty and this life isn't a dress rehearsal, we need to do what we think is right.

Agreed re. looking at maybe spending the time for other possible streams of income and watching and working the portfolio.

I think you're right, I do have very little to lose. I probably wouldn't be able to get my full time job back again easily, but then I seriously doubt I would ever want or need to go back. Gotta have some guts and just go with it sometimes I guess.

A few months left for me, looking forward to next year!

Thanks again,

GR

prieten
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Re: Hi, European expat in Thailand. Advice/opinions sought

Post by prieten »

Sounds like you are in the driver's seat there. I assume you have already expressed your unhappiness to your current employer. I work in the English teaching business in Japan, and I know the attitude of some employers is that any native English speaker will do. However, maybe you have built up some trust and your employer would not like too see you go. If he/she doesn't care, sayonara.

Good luck. It sounds like you have thought things through and are a great father and husband.

Gravity's Rainbow
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Re: Hi, European expat in Thailand. Advice/opinions sought

Post by Gravity's Rainbow »

Hi Prieten,

Thanks for the kind words.

Yes, I think I am in the driver's seat but only recently have I become aware of it. Up until now I've been in the front passenger seat but never thought to finally take the wheel.

I haven't really told my current boss yet but will certainly do so maybe around New Year time so as to give them a lot of notice. They've been pretty good so I want to honour that. I'll also do well to keep in their good books so that I can hopefully get the few hours a week that I will be needing in my retirement to fall when and where I want them to although I can't see it being a big issue.

Actually, despite your kind words, it's precisely because I don't currently feel like such a great father and husband (working opposite hours to the wife and kids) that I am heading in this direction. Although maybe that's what you meant.

I have friends in Japan that do what you do, one or two of them have even worked out very well in the long term.
I guess nowadays it's a long way from the bubble they had in the early 90's with all that money to burn eh?

Went there in 2007, Tokyo and Gunma just as the Sakura was coming out to say hello, cliche I know but it was truly wonderful.

Hope it pans out for you too.

GR

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Ego
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Re: Hi, European expat in Thailand. Advice/opinions sought

Post by Ego »

Gravity's Rainbow wrote:I have started to see it as being a solid plan too but really appreciate an outsider's perspective. The problem is that it seems so easy and obvious (no brainer as you say) that I have been almost wondering where the catch is and feeling trigger shy on going through with it.
Great story! I would do it.

That said, I'll play devils advocate....

The catch? How will you deal with the reaction of those around you? How does your wife feel about it? Her parents? Can you both cope with their reaction? Can you (and she) cope with the loss of status?

When you say, "I have the option to quit my full time contract and just work in the same field with no weekends, picking and choosing a few hours," is that with one company or multiple companies. Are you making yourself fragile by going from a somewhat guaranteed position to one where you fill in the spots they need filling, if they need filling? Is it possible to make a move to a different company or a different position within your company that offers the hours you desire?

The cash buys you a buffer, but you've got some vulnerabilities. The cash is in Thailand, is it denominated in Baht? If you plan to be there forever that should not be a problem but it sounds like the kids will be going to school overseas. What could that mean for your future?

You want to be in Thailand but your ability to work is severely restricted. Could that ability to work disappear altogether with the introduction of a new law. If that happens what would you do? Are there any ways to make yourself less vulnerable to this risk?

Please don't take these as a negative attitude to your situation. Far from it. I'm just trying to help you think through the options.

secretwealth
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Re: Hi, European expat in Thailand. Advice/opinions sought

Post by secretwealth »

Welcome to the forum! We have some expats on the forum and a few people who've visited Thailand.

Getting to the nitty gritty of your situation: yes, it definitely seems like you could easily move to a lower-paying and less time-intensive job with no problem. At least looking at the numbers. But from what little I know of Thai culture, especially hi-so Thai society, face is an enormously important issue, and I wonder if your in-laws would feel a loss of face if you moved out of your current position to a lower-paying one. I don't know the situation, of course, but it seems to me that more than numbers are involved.

On the investment issue: can you put your savings in an investment account in your home country? That may make it easier to invest your money. Alternatively, I remember some Thai bonds paying well over 6%, which would essentially make you FI.

George the original one
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Re: Hi, European expat in Thailand. Advice/opinions sought

Post by George the original one »

My concern is that your wife is tired. You taking a break seems selfish if you can't offer her one, too.

djc
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Re: Hi, European expat in Thailand. Advice/opinions sought

Post by djc »

Life isn't a dress rehearsal and if you can carry the load at home for your wife and still have a nice standard of living I'd go for it. The biggest problem you'll have I believe, and it was brought up earlier, is the loss of "face" of no longer having a career.

Family time trumped everything for us when I semi-retired.

djc

Gravity's Rainbow
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Re: Hi, European expat in Thailand. Advice/opinions sought

Post by Gravity's Rainbow »

Wow, great responses and good angles from you all. Thanks for taking the time to read such a lot of information and offering your input, I'm grateful to you all.

@Ego:No worries for your comments, I certainly wouldn't take them the wrong way. You stated already that you would go for it if you were me and I aprreciate the Devil's Advocacy. It wasn't clear in my original post but all of this has been discussed with my wife already. She is very much keen for me to go this way as it helps her out on the weekends, we can either share kids stuff on Saturdays and Sundays or I can do some 'Daddy and the kids' days as and when she feels run down and needs her recovery time. I could also help drive her to work some days and other such little things to help her. I like this aspect. The spots need filling at the same company, there are many branches in the same city, ideal case scenario is that I get them all on my doorstep but I don't mind if they are slightly out of the way sometimes. The kids are schooled in Thailand, they might need post grad overseas for a year in around ten years from now but I think between my wife and I we could easily cover that. Yes, I'm all in baht but have no plans to leave Thailand, it's been 17 years plus now so I've got everything here and happily rooted that way. My job options are limited but the one field I'm in (and would continue to part time in) can never really vanish, law changes or otherwise. Good points and objective analysis, thanks.

@secretwealth: Excellent insight on the cultural 'face' point and a very fair question. I would essentially be working at the same place, doing the same thing and could just say that to anyone if asked. I wouldn't say "I'm retired" or "I'm semi-retired" I would just say that I still do the same thing. This would be true of course except that nobody would know how much or little I do of it. Neither I or my wife would express it to anybody in the sense of 'Oh, he's quit his job now" it would just be more a case of '"Yeah, I still do that but I choose not to work weekends anymore" or other such similar way of expressing the situation. Thus, no real loss of face. In addition, I think the in-laws would be happier in some respects as lots of big family meals and get-togethers occur on weekends and I have been sometimes (actually quite often if I'm being really honest) unable to attend due to working those shifts. This is an improvement on that if anything. Yes there are some decent bond options and I'm sure with due diligence and treating it like more of a regular duty, I could improve my returns.

@George the original one: Yes, I can certainly see that it might appear that way. However, as I have said in reply to another poster here, it's more the case that the wife is already onboard and wanting me to reduce hours so as to help take up the strain and be around to do more. Kind of a double edged sword. If she had a little time to look after herself more with less stress, a few more opportunities to go and workout (which she wants) and maybe more days when she can get up late in the morning, I think it would make a massive difference to her life. I would also get more daddy with kids time. This was as important as me not liking my job but maybe the way the original post reads isn't clear on that. Thanks for the comment.

@djc:Thanks for your post. Indeed, the ultimate 'luxury product' I can imagine right now in life is simply just being able to be together more and also being able to work a lot less but still remain financially comfortable and make progress. Regarding the face thing: I am planning to go to work just enough to still 'be seen' to have a job enough in the eyes of others and to help the nest egg grow (albeit more slowly).

GR
Last edited by Gravity's Rainbow on Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Gravity's Rainbow
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Re: Hi, European expat in Thailand. Advice/opinions sought

Post by Gravity's Rainbow »

PS....forgot to add. I recently saw somewhere on here in a reply by Jacob that doing a few hours a week p/t still enables you to keep a CV rolling along (without gaps) as a plan B should you ever want or need to go back and work more down the line. This only occurred to me as relevant to my case this morning but also seems like quite a good thing. If it were the case that I needed to go back and work F/T again in the future but couldn't (or didn't want to) go back to the same place, I could still have a good CV to apply for work elsewhere with.

GR

JamesR
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Re: Hi, European expat in Thailand. Advice/opinions sought

Post by JamesR »

I just wanted to mention I know a long-term ex-teacher expat in Bangkok that owns 15+ condos and rents them out.

Some of his condos are near universities so he rents them to students, he's fluent in reading/writing thai so that helps.

He actually quit working with $250,000 and then started buying these condos.

I know he bought some of the 1 bedroom, 1 bath condos for about 300,000 baht and rents them out for 5,000 a month. That's 20% ROI. However, most of his condos only get about 8-10% ROI (this is all without any leverage, no mortgages).

secretwealth
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Re: Hi, European expat in Thailand. Advice/opinions sought

Post by secretwealth »

Sadly, it's a bit late in the curve for the Thailand housing boom. I wouldn't buy property in Bangkok at these prices--at least not when I looked into it about a year ago.

JamesR
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Re: Hi, European expat in Thailand. Advice/opinions sought

Post by JamesR »

Housing/condo prices are VERY misleading in thailand. It's not uncommon to see two condo units with identical floor plans being sold in the same building, one for more than million baht, the other for less than half a million baht.

Gravity's Rainbow
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Re: Hi, European expat in Thailand. Advice/opinions sought

Post by Gravity's Rainbow »

@JamesR and secretwealth:

Thanks for today's comments.

It's a lot more complicated than it might appear. The term 'condo' is very vague here but is generally regarded by the middle classes and higher to mean a name brand development often in Bangkok or a popular tourist area and usually costing at least a few million baht or upwards. At the high end, there are lots now for between 10-20million baht and even higher for the elite stuff. That's big coin in anyone's language. There are so many developments it's truly hard to keep up.

The prices you mention James are generally off plan and usually shoebox apartments in the sky of the most tiny and basic kind. Therein lies the rub, if they can be bought then they can't be called apartments here because that word has another meaning. 'Apartments' in Thailand means a rented room in a purpose built apartment block building which is owned by one company and often one family. So even a tiny, very cheap and cheerful place still kind of counts as 'a condo'. To most people here though the word usually does not mean anything less than a million or two even at entry level. Obviously those who are lower down the socio-economic status ladder like to say that they have their own 'condo' to other Thai peers as in this society it really matters tremendously what others think of you. And who can blame them?

In the case of what your friend has, or at least what it sounds like based on what you've said, they are often more considered as dorms or student lodgings and that is more on the 'apartment' end of things.

I have a teacher friend who has three condos, each being around two to three million or so, he has mortgages on them and covers them with renting out to tenants.To be fair, he is very happy doing this and would buy another if he could afford it. In this price range and with some good location choices, he has had tenants in most of his places non stop for ten years now. I hope when he reaches retirement (in another twenty years) they are still so highly rentable though.

Even a good one room studio (not a one bedroom but just one 40square meter room with a bathroom) from a reputable developer within short walking distance from the subway or skytrain and in the greater metropolitan area can EASILY be between 3-4 million these days. One bedrooms in such nice places are good chunk more than that, say 4-5million easy.

It can be risky, you really need to buy (as with any real estate anywhere in the world) with the 'location,location,location' mantra firmly in mind. It's also pretty shady here and easy to lose your money thus you are highly recommended to only deal with the big half a dozen brand name developers who are well known and (more importantly) listed on the Thai Stock Exchange. Again, the price you pay will reflect that. I bought one in an upcoming area which has since boomed and become quite trendy. I bought it many years ago now but it's only a few hundred metres walk away from a skytrain station in the CBD area. It was from the biggest developer. I rented it out for a while but found there were a lot of hassles and the rates weren't quite as good as I had thought. There are also fierce and deeply hard to deal with Thai politics in every building, you have very few/no rights and there will soon be 'issues'.

You need to bring the money in all in one chunk from overseas if you want to own it in your name, wife's name possible but not advisable here for most people IMHO. I wonder if you friend really 'owns' them on paper, he would have to have paid for them outright with 100% cash transactions for every one from overseas each time for that to be the case. Can't be bought in a foreigner's name even 100% cash from money within Thailand. Has to be sent over in cash through wire transfer every time for every one if you want your name on the deed. Most foreigners probably won't tell you that part.

The building is often sub standard. The buildings are only as good as the people in them and after ten to twenty years if they have been mismanaged and people don't pay up fees etc they can get run down very quickly indeed. They are then harder to rent out and can be famously difficult to sell. In the 90's people used to say here that the two things you couldn't get rid of in Bangkok were 'HIV and a condo'. My own building had got slightly run down in recent years and all of the tenants paid up together to generate a budget for a renovation and modernization (total raised is around 400k US), the work is well underway now and the place is on track to be really amazing in the next six months to a year. We are lucky that many of the residents here are business people with well known surnames, politicians and TV stars with money, they don't want to lose face by living in a place that isn't nice. Thai condo long term happy endings are not always the rule. Condos in tourist areas away from Bangkok can have their own extra problems in addition to all of these, although location and proximity to big public transport is obviously more flexible to an extent.

I guess the point to my rambling is that all these things need to be factored in to any purchasing decisions accordingly. It's not as straightforward as a typical western country real estate scenario. I sold my other one for a profit a while back, not as much as I originally thought I was gonna make but I got all my money back, the money I had spent on the annual fees during the time I owned it and a few thousand dollars on top plus the rental income I had earned from at at times. Not great, not bad. It wasn't too bad an experience overall but probably wouldn't do it again right now with my current portfolio.I was so relieved when I finally got the cheque in the bank if I'm being honest. I'm making a bit less on that portion of my money now but it's a lot safer and less hassle and we own other property anyway.

You could certainly get a great return on lower end cheaper stuff in the case of a student near university focused approach but not sure for how long and what you would be left with after ten to fifteen years? It's like trading in lots of cheaper and older second hand cars vs selling one or two expensive cars I suppose. I know a couple who have a large house and land near a uni and they built a small apartment block which they rent out as a student dorm on their own land. Good little business for them although pretty quiet when school's out. They focus on medical students and refuse party animal art students! So, there are certainly many angles and positions to be taken.

Property here is very odd in some ways. Thais have 'second hand stigma' which can sometimes even laughably (to me) be applied to condos. They like to buy new and with brand name places, often the price difference between a nice place a few years old and a brand new development is so slight that I guess they might as well have the brand new first owner prestige.

New brand name places are always pretty much sold out before building ever starts. As a foreigner its hard to get in the loop as Thais hear about them through contacts and their own social networks. By the time a good thing comes along, it's often already sold out and if it's not, you might want to ask yourself why that is. Not cool to buy a place in a building and then find out that only ten units out of seventy five were ever sold and you and the other nine people are now on your own with it all!

Honestly, I really wouldn't want a huge spread of really cheap apartments and low end condos to make up a reasonable slice of my portfolio here, I think there's too much to go wrong. But I applaud anyone who's making it work for them. It's not about right and wrongs, you just have to be careful to get a situation that is right for you.

On the plus side, property here can be quite robust. Although values only go up very slowly over time one has to be fair and add that when there is an economic downturn, the prices don't all suddenly go down a lot either, unlike in many Western countries. There is some good stability to it. Rich Thais often snap up a condo here and there to diversify a bit, they look at them like bars of gold or similar.

I'm fluent in speaking and reading/writing Thai also, very few foreigners truly are so this gives me an edge. Takes a long time though! Learning a language is a lot like building up savings in the bank I often think, there are many comparisons to be drawn. I do enjoy it though and that's the main thing.

My 2 cents at least.

GR

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Ego
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Re: Hi, European expat in Thailand. Advice/opinions sought

Post by Ego »

GR, when we're in Bangkok we stay in the area around Sukhumvit 11 and like to run along the khlong path to Lumpini Park. In the last ten years we've watched the boom along with a few highly visible busts, and wondered how any foreigner had the courage to plunk down a deposit on a condo being build just across from one of those hulking, empty shells. The developments that reach completion appear (at least from the vantage point of the khlong path) to be spectacular. There just seems to be so much going on below the surface that we couldn't even begin to comprehend. Your previous post is really enlightening. Thank you!

secretwealth
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Re: Hi, European expat in Thailand. Advice/opinions sought

Post by secretwealth »

GR--Wonderful, comprehensive post. Thank you.

I remember seeing some brand new 1br condos in the Japanese expat area along Sukhumvit selling for $200k-$300k US. It seemed pretty clear something was very very wrong, and foreigners could easily lose a lot of money by getting into the market. I'm glad I stepped away after reading your post!

RealPerson
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Re: Hi, European expat in Thailand. Advice/opinions sought

Post by RealPerson »

I believe another area of confusion is what is meant by "a house". We have a friend who built a single family home in northern Thailand. The house was just that: a foundation, doors, windows and a roof. The quoted price did not include a kitchen because that is an accessory, not the house itself. He paid much more than originally planned and his wife is Thai! Real estate in Thailand looks very risky to me. Too many pitfalls. Also, it seems to me that the legal system is slanted against foreigners.

GR - thank you so much. That is a terrific post. It is rare to get such an insider look. Kudos for learning Thai. That is a brutal alphabet and a tough language to learn.

Gravity's Rainbow
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Re: Hi, European expat in Thailand. Advice/opinions sought

Post by Gravity's Rainbow »

Thx all for comments:

@Ego: That area is one of the main, really pricey areas and has been for a long time now. I know exactly where you mean in terms of where you go running, there's quite a nice little network on or around there and also around the Thai tobacco monopoly commission place that connects to another park, Queen Sirikit park. There's actually an elevated path for cycling and running that connects the two. I am not in that part of town but sometimes go cycling there.

Funny that you should mention empty shells, the condo we live in had one such failed empty shell project right next to us for fifteen years. A developer finally bought it off the bank and redeveloped it three years ago. It was finished last year and it remains to be seen how many will sell and how popular it will be. From my point of view, and I'm sorry if this sounds a little selfish, I'm just glad that somebody came along and turned the eyesore from a blot on the landscape (which ruined our view on one side) to a nice building to look at!

Glad my post was useful to you, nice to give something back to this board and site, it's been great for me in recent years and Thailand knowledge might be the only thing I have to offer of any use around here so you are more than welcome.

@secretwealth: You are welcome. Honestly, it sounds like a lot when you express those figures in dollars but 200-300k is only around 6-9 million baht. Not really that much in high end brand name condo terms in Bangkok these days, sign of the times. I would certainly want much more than a one bedroom for that money though!

@Realperson: I have deliberately not included the word 'house' in my post because legally, we can't really ever own one anyway. Sure, there are ways and means but it's all grey and not really recommended. If I wanted to cover the full extent of the house aspect, I would need to write a few thousand words more and I think the thread has already gone off on an extreme angle as is haha :-)

Thai is tricky as it's tonal, it's been a loooong time for me and honestly it's only worth it if you settle here as Thai has no value anywhere else in the world outside of Thailand. I am glad to have achieved fluency though as my wife and kids are all bilingual and I would honestly feel ashamed not to be myself.

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