The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

[JamesR]

@Ego,

If anything, there's nothing about neural wiring that is deterministic, it's going to be more stochastic, the gradual result of many different probabilities occurring over time.

[7Wannabe5]

@BRUTE: Same difference. The first question might be is this true on face value, but the essential puzzle, from my perspective, is whether it is more in alignment with rational self-interest to choose to make contract or engage in trade with other rational actors vs. more irrational actors? And, I believe the answer to this question is relevant in much wider context, obvious example being person-to-person lending. Are you better off lending money to a spendaholic with a poor credit rating who is willing to pay 24% interest or somebody giving more sober consideration to a conservative opportunity to leverage who is only willing to pay 5%? Am I better off dating a man who is texting me pictures of his various status symbols every 3 weeks and is obviously is some state of mad limerence, or a man who calmly informs me that he decided he was going to ask me out a second time when he observed my appearance walking ahead of him into the restaurant? In any case, I think it is kind of mean to poke fun at the person or people from whose weakness you are currently making profit. Obviously, pimps and money-lenders have more power than johns, gamblers,wage-slaves or prostitutes, but it's not nice to brag, and it's not very self-aware to think you are better.

[BRUTE]

I think it is kind of mean to poke fun at the person or people from whose weakness you are currently making profit. Obviously, pimps and money-lenders have more power than johns, gamblers,wage-slaves or prostitutes, but it's not nice to brag, and it's not very self-aware to think you are better.

in all voluntary exchanges (and debatably in involuntary ones), both parties are making profits, and thereby exploiting the weakness of the other party. nobody would perform any type of trade if they didn't have a desire (=weakness) they felt the need to improve upon.

brute cannot comment on the poking of fun or the bragging.

[7Wannabe5]

ffj said: That anecdote only works if you actually did pick up the tab. Did you? Or did you keep the illusion of a being a poor Native American? If you didn't pay the bill, who do you think ultimately came out ahead on that exchange?

Well, the main point I was trying to make with the anecdote was that my much more affluent date communicated that he recognized that I had or was making a choice. He wasn't placing me in the role of victim of sad circumstances ripe for the rescue. So, he was also communicating respect for my free agent adult status. I have examined the whether or not to allow a man to pick up the tab issue seven ways to Sunday, and my current take is that it is inconsiderate if I insist on only skills, services and barter in trade. Also, I only allow a man to buy me dinner if I find him otherwise attractive, or if he clearly would benefit from having a kind face to vent angst about his job and/or divorce at. The second I also consider to be a bit of a public service, because often not worth the price even if I order dessert. As for the specific instance I was referring to, I did find him otherwise attractive, and he was the one who purposefully turned off my switch and put me back in my package at the end of the evening, and he has already booked me for dinner this Thursday and Friday, so ...?

@BRUTE: Gotcha. One person's relative weakness is another person's attractive vacuum. And, of course, unlike an elderly blue-haired firmly girdled matron such as myself, social manners are not within your realm of concern any more than techniques of flower arrangement.

[Ego]

@Ego,

If anything, there's nothing about neural wiring that is deterministic, it's going to be more stochastic, the gradual result of many different probabilities occurring over time.

I had to look up stochastic models. I agree.

[enigmaT120]

Learning to defer gratitude is one of the early steps of typical human development/maturity. It just happens later in some of us later than in others.

I think it's a bad idea at any age.

[7Wannabe5]

@ffj: No worries. I know that reading my writing is kind of like driving in Tehran. The second more subtle point I was trying to make in the post you referenced was that when I tell people about my permaculture lifestyle/philosophy, they usually don't get that it is not about being some green-shade of selfless. It is about being lazy and clever. Just like ERE.

[BRUTE]

brute has to +1 ffj's confusion about 7wannabe5's writing style. sometimes brute isn't sure if 7wannabe5 is talking about brute or implying things, like the bragging and making fun of - none of which brute intended to do, but both of which were mentioned by 7wannabe5 in an @brute comment.

[7Wannabe5]

@BRUTE: Sorry about that. I did not mean to direct that at you. It's just the general tone of this thread and others like it. Wouldn't it be more productive if the INTJ majority here started some threads about things INTJ's generally suck at and then encouraged each other to stretch in those directions? I think it is beneath you guys to keep talking about the broke, obese masses as if you don't maybe have some work of your own to focus on. For instance, how is re-framing being a spendthrift or overweight as a virtue any different than re-framing extreme introversion as a virtue?

[IlliniDave]

Learning to defer gratitude is one of the early steps of typical human development/maturity. It just happens later in some of us later than in others.

I think it's a bad idea at any age.

Haha! Yeah, I meant gratification. Gratitude is good all the time.

[BRUTE]

@BRUTE: Sorry about that. I did not mean to direct that at you. It's just the general tone of this thread and others like it. Wouldn't it be more productive if the INTJ majority here started some threads about things INTJ's generally suck at and then encouraged each other to stretch in those directions? I think it is beneath you guys to keep talking about the broke, obese masses as if you don't maybe have some work of your own to focus on. For instance, how is re-framing being a spendthrift or overweight as a virtue any different than re-framing extreme introversion as a virtue?

brute just did an online test and came out as INTP - but he answered "uncertain" a lot, and every single category is moderate except thinking/feeling, which is "marginal or no preference" at 1%. close to INFP?

to be honest, brute thinks the test is pretty meaningless, at least for him. many of the times, the answer would be "depends", "sometimes", or the two options just didn't seem to be 2 opposite ends of the same spectrum.

then again, brute should not be surprised that tests for human personality don't explain him well.

[GandK]

brute just did an online test and came out as INTP - but he answered "uncertain" a lot, and every single category is moderate except thinking/feeling, which is "marginal or no preference" at 1%. close to INFP?

Does this describe BRUTE well?

[BRUTE]

Does this describe BRUTE well?

1/2 of it. brute definitely lives in his head, and features some of the complex/dreamy/anti-social characteristics. but while brute likes logic, he doesn't consider himself very logical, and certainly doesn't believe in absolute truths.

brute believes there's some kind of hippie/cynic/non-professor vibe missing from a true INTP.

maybe somewhere between an INTP and an INFP. T/F was the one brute was almost exactly in the middle. both descriptions have some strong correlation with brute, but both have strong disagreements. for example brute doesn't care about helping humans much (unlike an INFP), but also doesn't care for logic or objectivity much (unlike an INTP).

[7Wannabe5]

Do you dress/style more like Sherlock Holmes or Johnny Depp?

[Dragline]

Maybe its "John Holmes". Most of you are probably too young to appreciate that reference.

One of the funniest shop signs I ever saw was for a music store called "John Holmes Organs" in Oxford, England. (This was back in the '80s.)

[BRUTE]

Do you dress/style more like Sherlock Holmes or Johnny Depp?

funny 7Wannabe5 would ask this, as Sherlock Holmes from "Elementary" is one of the primary sources brute models his clothing after
brute is definitely on the aspie side, but it just doesn't feel like the stereotypical physicist, with which brute cannot talk about much.

[Papers of Indenture]

when I tell people about my permaculture lifestyle/philosophy, they usually don't get that it is not about being some green-shade of selfless. It is about being lazy and clever. Just like ERE.

Oh boy. I get the same thing. It kind of pisses me off but explaining that i'm just trying to shortcut the system and make maximum long term gains in leisure time draws blank stares. It's hard for your average Joe to think about leisure after witnessing me dig a ditch in the lawn instead of watching HGTV on the boob tube.

[enigmaT120]

I'm an ISTJ but I can't remember what the difference is between S and N.

I suck at mechanicking and handyman stuff, so of course that's what I spend all of my spare time doing.

Edit: I went back to that test site and found this:

"The topic of how we Take in Information deals with our preferred method of taking in and absorbing information. Do we trust our five senses (Sensing) to take in information, or do we rely on our instincts (iNtuitive)? "

What does it even mean to take in information through instincts? It looks like nonsense to me, so hopefully somebody can explain it to me. I postulate things that I have no evidence for (I think all religions work that way.) but I don't think it's intuition to do so.

[7Wannabe5]

@BRUTE: My adult son is an INTP and when he cleans up his style/appearance/manner is kind of Sherlock Holmes and/or the 3rd son of Charles and Diana. When he doesn't clean up his neighbors call him White Jesus.

@Papers of Indenture: Right. It's just like when I tried to construct a pulley system that would allow me to clean my room while lying in bed reading Nancy Drew and eating jelly beans, except I hope to have more success.

@enigmaT120: Hey, Skater Boy! I am 99% N, only 1% S, so maybe I can explain about the intuition vs. sensory. You know those annoying people you see sometimes who are smiling and don't seem to be looking where they are going or paying attention to anything that is going on around them, like they are up in the clouds, and you zip right past one of them on your skateboard, and no reaction whatsoever, but somehow they manage to stay alive? Or did you ever meet somebody who could fall asleep on the back of a motorcycle? That person was an N and a P. OTOH, do you know somebody who can immediately sense if another person is lying or addicted to some substance, or if a property would be a good buy, or a book will make it on to the New York Times Notable list, but they can't tell you how they know? That person is very N and likely T. An N can be just as sensual as an S, but it's like waves you are riding vs. particle bullets in your face, or something like that. I think.

[Laura Ingalls]

The author was NPR's On Point today. He was really annoying . One of the listeners that called in was from my small town and was critical of him (and more polite than I would have been).