I guess it's time I made a more formal introduction. I'll use this space to post about my explorations into various aspects of ERE and the life I'm after. Probably fewer financials and more stories of projects I undertake and things on my mind.
I'm a 30 year old male living in (and loathing) Los Angeles. When I found out about this FI business sometime in December, I still had about $6500 of a $12k credit card debt that I had run up on incidental living expenses while in school and trying to find a job right after. I would estimate that it was 90% groceries and beer. I'm naturally inclined toward frugality, being from a rural area of the south and having reasonable family and neighbors. When I moved to LA at age 22, I had $12k of savings, which didn't last trying to cover expenses and school with a part-time job. Within a few years it was -$12k.
As of April 1, that debt hit zero without any windfalls, just optimization of my spending. So I'm starting from square one this month. I'm very grateful for the help I've received that made ending debt a possibility.
Net worth is a few hundred bucks, plus $8500 in pre-tax retirement accounts that I have been forced to contribute to from my paycheck against my will, and cannot access, even to transfer the balance to a personal IRA or 401k, until 31 days after terminating my employment.
Pay is $45000 gross, but my take-home after pension theft and tax theft is around $34000. I don't feel like listing expenses, as I've cut the lowest hanging fruit and am working on the rest, but I'll cover the Big 3.
Rent is $1100 for a large 1br. This got hiked up from $1000 in March, so I'm moving out soon. Over the summer my SO will move in, cutting my rent to $550 for two months, then we will move into a 2br with another friend when their lease ends, which should leave me at around $700. My SO hates my apartment and refuses to live there, and wants to help out her friend. I'd prefer $550, but this appeara to be my best option
Transportation is mainly bus now. I cancelled my $75/month parking pass (yes they charged me for the privilege of driving to work) and ended my commute by truck. I now have an $11/month unlimited bus pass which also saves me mileage on weekend travel within the area. I only drive when forced. Usually 1-2 short trips a week not accessible by the bus lines.
Food. This was ungodly. At one time, I ate 3 lbs of flesh (excluding bone weight) per day, every day, and 1-2 lbs of carbohydrate. Thankfully I jacked myself up and am not lifting, so now I can get by on a warrior diet of a pound or a little more of meat per day, and some veggies. I eat paleo style, and have done so with great success since 2008. My current grocery bill is undef $300/month, down from probably $500+. I was too frightened to calculate it.
So of the Big 3, one has been handled, one has been improved, and one still sucks but will improve soon.
Decluttering
Since I'll have a roommate soon and a move shortly after, I'm in full declutter mode. I've sold a bunch of books, have more up for sale, and still more of no value that I am giving away. So far I've made about $350 selling books, and if the rest sell, it'll be over $500. I've also thrown away a lot of miscellaneous crap that was taking up space, which feels incredible when I walk in and see openness where before there was junk.
A big ongoing project right now is my wardrobe. I had a large one, not because I buy a lot, or have any fashion sense whatsoever, but because I get incredible mileage out of clothing. I have several t-shirts in the 15-18 year age range that I still wear, and a ton of stuff around a decade old or more. Sadly, I've parted with some of the lesser used items.
My SO tells me I dress like a dad, and although she doesn't care about expensive things, she hates stuff that is ratty or too old-man-like, so that's been another category to get rid of. I'm foucusing ln a style that I think both represents my personality and looks presentable. Which is lots of solid colors (gray, black, navy, white) and some plaids. I have plenty of these already, so no need to buy more, and when the time comes I can get them at Target for $20 or less. I wear two pairs of jeans, Levi's 504, and a free pair of Prana Zion pants I got from my dad.
Dress clothes are an issue. I almost never wear them, so mine are really old and have become ill-fitting and somewhat shoddy, so this is one wardrobe area I have to address. I bought a single new pair of slacks from Bluffworks which I can use for upcoming job interviews and playing dress-up when someone puts a gun to my head. I plan to get one shirt, probably light blue or white, and that will be my one dressy outfit.
Obviously, if I'm posting about something it's because I welcome advice, especially on clothing systems. I've read the book and wiki. I may need a few more articles for now, though. Seasons are a non-issue. A light jacket suffices for the occasions cold snap. So I've divided my clothing into three categories: 1) work clothing, which is usually t-shirts that work gives me, though the dress code is so lax I can wear just about anything (these doible as workout shirts). 2) knocking about clothing, which is crappy stuff for physical labor or recreation that would get it dirty. And 3) nice stuff, for when I interact with non-work people. This includes things like t-shirts nice enough to wear to a bar or to have lunch with the MIL.
My plan is to have three stacks (except things that need to be hung up). I will put washed clothing back on top. After a number of months, the stuff at the bottom will be stuff that has not been worn at all, and it gets donated for a small tax write-off.
I'll tackle my work situation in the next update.
Edit: changed the thread title. The first one was both too mundane and too serious.
DSKla: Conversations with myself, aloud in public places
Re: DSKla: Conversations with myself, aloud in public places
Job
Other than the standard objections to how it's a Gervais Principle wasteland and everything almost everyone does is non-essential to any part of both the employer's core function and mankind as a whole, I kind of like my job. I'm in the accumulation phase and will be for a while, so I can't undervalue something that is stable and easy. I get paid in kibbles 'n bits for a role that earns my private industry equivalents six figures for managing fewer people and programs than I do, but the trade-off is the private sector is mostly sales-oriented and has huge turnover, whereas my job allows me to mostly do things my way, and the workload is ridiculously light most weeks. I accomplish everything I need to do within a few hours. If I do 5 hours of actual work in a day, that's a grind. Sometimes I get things done in one hour on a light day, then I read books or workout or meditate on the clock until it reaches a time at which I don't feel too guilty going home.
So if you divide my meager salary by actual work, my hourly is pretty good, but the net doesn't allow for very fast accumulation. There is absolutely zero chance of me being replaced. The only fear would be if the funding for my position was severed entirely, and if that happened, I would have several months advance notice due to the timing of the contracts and the budget release.
Pros:
Interesting field, though it has more than its share of bullshit
Easy workday
Flexible arrival/departure times most days
Likeable coworkers
Relative job security
Cons:
Shit pay, never give raises to anyone in my dept.
Dealing with bureaucracy (but is there any large organization who doesn't have it)
Maxed out promotional opportunities
Stagnation (more or less been here for almost 8 years in various capacities)
Recently I applied to a job for the first time in years as a feeler. I would teach middle and high schoolers what I currently practice. No idea the pay, but my gf also works at the school and she makes more than me despite it being her first ever full-time job, so I'd surely be above her. Probably 50-55k gross, no 7% pension skim, and she got a $3k raise after only working for three months.
Haven't heard back yet, but even though this job would be less flexible on a day-to-day basis, and I have my issues with education, I would only work 8.5 months out of the year, so I could get part-time work over summer or just do my own thing. They are pretty ahead of the game in trying out new educational strategies, too. Some work, some don't, but they experiment, which I like.
Right now, if I were offered I'd probably go, because I only plan on living in LA one more year max, so better to take the slightly better paying job that technically absolves me of duty a few months earlier. Having harvested the low-hanging fruit, my only two significant possibilities for faster ERE are to move to a cheaper city, and/or find a higher paying job.
The teaching gig would be good, because despite my resume looking really solid, the stuff I do just doesn't exist other places. I've looked. Our programs are pretty cutting edge in terms of content and scope, and I'm pretty sure that they only exist a few other places in lesser quality and scope. So in other words, no jobs are being posted for what I do. I'd have to convince someone of the value of creating these programs and hiring me to run them, or transition into education, or a completely different field (luckily almost anything pays more than I make now). And I'm thinking a year of teaching would open doors for me to move almost anywhere that teachers are needed.
But I'm getting ahead of myself because I just applied and the position is for the fall, so it may be some time before I hear back, if I do. Until then, I'm catching up on a lot of paid reading.
Card Churning
I just churned my first credit card. Is it still a churn if you only do one? I got an offer for a Southwest card that gives 50k points for spending 2k in three months and a $100 statement credit after your first spend, which cancels out their $99 annual fee. I took the offer for the airline points, but also because I am going on a free trip to Iceland and the Faroes this summer, and the card has zero foreign transaction fees, so I can use it to pay for my fish and beer while working towards the rewards spending total.
I fly home twice per year, and until now, my parents buy me the ticket because they know I'd never come otherwise. I feel bad about that, so I want to be able to buy at least one of the flights. They feed me and transport me once I'm there, so I end up spending virtually nothing. It's only fair I take care of the flight. The 50k points should get me two flights, though I also want to visit my good friend who just moved to Portland, so I may do that and pay for 1.5 of my home flights (or churn a second card?).
In other words, this doesn't save me any money. It's paying for travel that I otherwise wouldn't have undertaken on my own dime. But my parents are good people, I enjoy my visits, and nobody likes a mooch.
I dont't expect credit card churning to become a big thing with me, because despite the impression I've given, I kind of hate travel. I've only left the country once in my life, and only fly home to visit family twice a year. That's it. The free trip is a windfall that I'm excited about, and visiting my friend doesn't need to happen that often. If this goes well, I may do 1-2 cards a year to get about 2-3 free domestic flights.
The $2k in three months spending threshold is beyond my normal spending (excluding rent) by a decent amount, so I'll have to manufacture probably $500-800 without incurring interest or costs. That doesn't sound too terrible, but I'm open to any tips. I've read all about redcards and such, but I'd prefer to do it without having to open prepaid cards and gift cards. Stock up on consumables? Pay other people's bills and have them write me a check? Arbitrage for a small profit? What are your thoughts for those who've done this before?
Other than the standard objections to how it's a Gervais Principle wasteland and everything almost everyone does is non-essential to any part of both the employer's core function and mankind as a whole, I kind of like my job. I'm in the accumulation phase and will be for a while, so I can't undervalue something that is stable and easy. I get paid in kibbles 'n bits for a role that earns my private industry equivalents six figures for managing fewer people and programs than I do, but the trade-off is the private sector is mostly sales-oriented and has huge turnover, whereas my job allows me to mostly do things my way, and the workload is ridiculously light most weeks. I accomplish everything I need to do within a few hours. If I do 5 hours of actual work in a day, that's a grind. Sometimes I get things done in one hour on a light day, then I read books or workout or meditate on the clock until it reaches a time at which I don't feel too guilty going home.
So if you divide my meager salary by actual work, my hourly is pretty good, but the net doesn't allow for very fast accumulation. There is absolutely zero chance of me being replaced. The only fear would be if the funding for my position was severed entirely, and if that happened, I would have several months advance notice due to the timing of the contracts and the budget release.
Pros:
Interesting field, though it has more than its share of bullshit
Easy workday
Flexible arrival/departure times most days
Likeable coworkers
Relative job security
Cons:
Shit pay, never give raises to anyone in my dept.
Dealing with bureaucracy (but is there any large organization who doesn't have it)
Maxed out promotional opportunities
Stagnation (more or less been here for almost 8 years in various capacities)
Recently I applied to a job for the first time in years as a feeler. I would teach middle and high schoolers what I currently practice. No idea the pay, but my gf also works at the school and she makes more than me despite it being her first ever full-time job, so I'd surely be above her. Probably 50-55k gross, no 7% pension skim, and she got a $3k raise after only working for three months.
Haven't heard back yet, but even though this job would be less flexible on a day-to-day basis, and I have my issues with education, I would only work 8.5 months out of the year, so I could get part-time work over summer or just do my own thing. They are pretty ahead of the game in trying out new educational strategies, too. Some work, some don't, but they experiment, which I like.
Right now, if I were offered I'd probably go, because I only plan on living in LA one more year max, so better to take the slightly better paying job that technically absolves me of duty a few months earlier. Having harvested the low-hanging fruit, my only two significant possibilities for faster ERE are to move to a cheaper city, and/or find a higher paying job.
The teaching gig would be good, because despite my resume looking really solid, the stuff I do just doesn't exist other places. I've looked. Our programs are pretty cutting edge in terms of content and scope, and I'm pretty sure that they only exist a few other places in lesser quality and scope. So in other words, no jobs are being posted for what I do. I'd have to convince someone of the value of creating these programs and hiring me to run them, or transition into education, or a completely different field (luckily almost anything pays more than I make now). And I'm thinking a year of teaching would open doors for me to move almost anywhere that teachers are needed.
But I'm getting ahead of myself because I just applied and the position is for the fall, so it may be some time before I hear back, if I do. Until then, I'm catching up on a lot of paid reading.
Card Churning
I just churned my first credit card. Is it still a churn if you only do one? I got an offer for a Southwest card that gives 50k points for spending 2k in three months and a $100 statement credit after your first spend, which cancels out their $99 annual fee. I took the offer for the airline points, but also because I am going on a free trip to Iceland and the Faroes this summer, and the card has zero foreign transaction fees, so I can use it to pay for my fish and beer while working towards the rewards spending total.
I fly home twice per year, and until now, my parents buy me the ticket because they know I'd never come otherwise. I feel bad about that, so I want to be able to buy at least one of the flights. They feed me and transport me once I'm there, so I end up spending virtually nothing. It's only fair I take care of the flight. The 50k points should get me two flights, though I also want to visit my good friend who just moved to Portland, so I may do that and pay for 1.5 of my home flights (or churn a second card?).
In other words, this doesn't save me any money. It's paying for travel that I otherwise wouldn't have undertaken on my own dime. But my parents are good people, I enjoy my visits, and nobody likes a mooch.
I dont't expect credit card churning to become a big thing with me, because despite the impression I've given, I kind of hate travel. I've only left the country once in my life, and only fly home to visit family twice a year. That's it. The free trip is a windfall that I'm excited about, and visiting my friend doesn't need to happen that often. If this goes well, I may do 1-2 cards a year to get about 2-3 free domestic flights.
The $2k in three months spending threshold is beyond my normal spending (excluding rent) by a decent amount, so I'll have to manufacture probably $500-800 without incurring interest or costs. That doesn't sound too terrible, but I'm open to any tips. I've read all about redcards and such, but I'd prefer to do it without having to open prepaid cards and gift cards. Stock up on consumables? Pay other people's bills and have them write me a check? Arbitrage for a small profit? What are your thoughts for those who've done this before?
Re: DSKla: Conversations with myself, aloud in public places
Hi DSKla, thanks for sharing your story.
Regarding clothing, I would suggest looking at thrift shops. I started doing this in the last year, and it was surprisingly hard on my ego to do so. But the reality is, especially if you go to thrift shops in very nice neighborhoods, there will be very high quality, lightly used clothing for pennies on the dollar. I have found jeans, dress slacks, dress shirts, t shirts, sweaters, etc. In cases where the fit is not completely optimal, it might make sense to pay a tailor to correct it, because it can be hard to find clothes that fit perfectly - finding clothes at a thrift shop is a numbers game. There are some things which you won't really be able to find at a thrift shop, but most day to day clothing can be found there.
No one will be able to notice either. The managing partner of my firm told me I was the face of casual Fridays with an output I put together at Goodwill ($4 shoes, $4 sweater vest, cheap jeans and a blue collared shirt), which I found hilarious.
Regarding the job situation, I can relate pretty well. A comfortable, reasonable paying job that offers a good work-life balance has a lot to offer. You are not stressed, you have more time to pursue side jobs or hobbies you have, etc. On the flip side, it takes longer to accumulate capital. It's a personal decision, but I highly value the extra time my job provides me so I can pursue other interests and side jobs. You'll have to weigh the options there, but I've found the grass is always greener.
Regarding clothing, I would suggest looking at thrift shops. I started doing this in the last year, and it was surprisingly hard on my ego to do so. But the reality is, especially if you go to thrift shops in very nice neighborhoods, there will be very high quality, lightly used clothing for pennies on the dollar. I have found jeans, dress slacks, dress shirts, t shirts, sweaters, etc. In cases where the fit is not completely optimal, it might make sense to pay a tailor to correct it, because it can be hard to find clothes that fit perfectly - finding clothes at a thrift shop is a numbers game. There are some things which you won't really be able to find at a thrift shop, but most day to day clothing can be found there.
No one will be able to notice either. The managing partner of my firm told me I was the face of casual Fridays with an output I put together at Goodwill ($4 shoes, $4 sweater vest, cheap jeans and a blue collared shirt), which I found hilarious.
Regarding the job situation, I can relate pretty well. A comfortable, reasonable paying job that offers a good work-life balance has a lot to offer. You are not stressed, you have more time to pursue side jobs or hobbies you have, etc. On the flip side, it takes longer to accumulate capital. It's a personal decision, but I highly value the extra time my job provides me so I can pursue other interests and side jobs. You'll have to weigh the options there, but I've found the grass is always greener.
Re: DSKla: Conversations with myself, aloud in public places
Thanks for the tips. I'm looking to downsize the wardrobe at the moment, but I'll check the thrift stores for a decent dress shirt. Maybe I'll bring a bunch of stuff down to sell and just get the shirt in trade.
Very true about time to pursue personal interests being valuable. I probably do have a case of grass is greener syndrome. If I were staying here a long time, I'd probably be more inclined to keep the easy gig. The only thing that tempts me is that my gf and I are hoping to move out of the city next summer, so it may not be the worst thing to risk a more-stressful job for more money since if it's awful, I only have to suck it up for a little less than 9 months. Definitely a dilemma, but I can't worry about that unless I actually get an offer. I'm just excited about having options.
Very true about time to pursue personal interests being valuable. I probably do have a case of grass is greener syndrome. If I were staying here a long time, I'd probably be more inclined to keep the easy gig. The only thing that tempts me is that my gf and I are hoping to move out of the city next summer, so it may not be the worst thing to risk a more-stressful job for more money since if it's awful, I only have to suck it up for a little less than 9 months. Definitely a dilemma, but I can't worry about that unless I actually get an offer. I'm just excited about having options.
Re: DSKla: Conversations with myself, aloud in public places
Mindfulness
Ever since a recent surgery, I've had trouble breathing. I'd never really noticed my breath before. Inhaling and exhaling were just things that happened, and I take the fact that it never caught my attention as a sign of functionality. But whether due to scar tissue, long-held tension of the abdominal wall during recovery, stress, lack of activity, I had to concentrate to get a really nice, deep breath. And when my attention wandered, I'd often forget to breathe at all, leading to periodic gasps punctuating short, irregular breaths. I noticed myself waking up to gasp, a possible sign that I'd developed sleep apnea, and I could tell my breathing had been shallow because my lungs felt "wet" and a single deep breath brought them back to a normal state, as if most of them just hadn't been filled in a while. So I decided to fix it.
That's what started my interest in mindfulness. I found out about yoga nidra, a practice where you lie on your back and clear your head, focusing on breath and relaxation, or tracking a single element such as sound. By giving the mind one thing in the present to do, the wandering ceases, breath deepens and slows, muscles relax, and you melt into the floor in a puddle of bliss. A fellow I'd already known about for his incredible work on stretching, Kit Laughlin, has a number of free MP3s available where he talks through a ~30 minute yoga nidra session so I began to do it every day. (If anyone would like the links for their own practice, PM me, they're free and in the public domain). Immediately, my breath improved. Not to perfection. But when I do it daily, things creep towards a normal state, and when I miss a day or two, they creep back. It all seems to be related to mindfulness in that when I am present in the moment, not thinking about the past or future or planning out anything, I can breathe, and relax.
My goal has been to continue that state beyong my yoga nidra practice, by focusing on the moment when I am walking, sitting on the bus, etc.--times when my mind is very like to "go on walkabout" as Kit says. I've always rather enjoyed my thoughts, and there are a lot of good reasons to let them do their thing. The problem comes when you can't stop them from doing their thing, even when you want to. Achieving lengthy bouts of mindfulness in daily life has been hard, but as I practice, I can make them longer and longer. I find it helps to focus on one thing, like sound as an experience, the movement of the crowd walking around me, my own movement, or even better, my breath.
I've also been reading authors like Marcus Aurelius and Lao Tzu. It was very striking to me when I realized that mindfulness--being present in the moment without fear, desire, or judgment--appears in a number of different ways across different times, cultures, religions, even science. It sounded like Marcus Aurelius and Lao Tzu were talking about more or less the same thing as the swamis of yoga nidra. Then I remembered having read about a state called "flow" as described by a guy whose name I will never be able to say aloud, Mihály Csíkszentmihályi. Flow is a psychological state of singular focus, also called being in the zone and a number of other things, where your attention on the matter at hand leads to creativity, performance, and satisfaction beyond what you are able to achieve outside a state of flow. It's interesting to me to hear mindfulness described so many ways by so many different people. I doubt the human brain is capable of entering a number of distinct but very similar states, so I have to think they're all talking about the same state as they experience it.
Having just finished One Straw Revolution by Masonobu Fukuoka, I stumbled upon yet another desription on mindfulness, this time in the form of being connected with nature and practicing natural agriculture. Not surprising since he references Lao Tzu a few times, but one of the most interesting sections of the book is where Fukuoka does into discriminating knowledge vs. non-discriminating knowledge.
From the interpeter: "Discriminating knowledge is derived from the analytical, willful intellect in an attempt to organize experience into a logical framework...Non-discriminating knowledge arises without conscious effort on the part of the individual when experience is accepted as it is, without interpretation by the inellect." So non-discriminating doesn't try to categorize or make sense of things. His do-nothing farming would just have the inividual work in harmony with nature, as opposed to trying to compartmentalize it, "fix" it, and create other problems as a consequence. In the nutrition section, he stresses that focusing on macros and vitamins is just discriminating knowledge, whereas a natural diet would conist of just eating what was available to you through natural gorwing methods as it became available, without concern for anything as silly as a "balanced diet", or desiring things that were not inherent in the experience of growing and gathering seasonal food.
The colors and flavors and characteristics of what we think is desirable, healthy food are constructs of discriminating knowledge (which I'm beginning to think may be a linguistic problem, as we have to describe our experiences to one another somehow, and that leads to categories and discriminations between them). The natural method of farming and eating is simply an experience. I may not be describing this well, but it strikes me as no different than the other version of mindfulness I've heard, whether from a Stoic who makes no distinction between good luck and misfortune, or the seemingly circular phrases you would find from Buddha (form is emptiness and emptiness is form) and Lao Tzu (The five colors blind the eye; The five tones deafen the ear; The five flavors dull the tatse; Racing and hunting madden the mind; Precious things lead one astray; Therefore the sage is guided by what he feels and not by what he sees; He lets go of that and chooses this).
And then this morning, I stumbled onto an interesting article about the very thin line between hallucination and reality: http://psychiatristscottsdale.com/hallu ... s-reality/
Some pertinent quotes:
"As humans we cannot know the extended world (reality) intrinsically. This is one thing that all philosophers agree on. Nobody will ever know what subsumes sub-sub-sub-sub atomic particles or quarks, the items which ultimately constitute all matter and reality. I can say this with certainty because we will never know “when we reached the bottom”, or have found the primitive substance of which matter is made of.."
"What we perceive about the world is really seen through our conceptual framework and senses...Remember that what we see as a moth, a Fruit Bat might see as a radar blip."
"So we might conclude that our reality is mediated by an image that our mind creates through our senses which is provoked by an object in the real world which has a causal influence or power to produce the sense datum which is presented to our minds."
In order for us to call something reality, we have to all agree on the category of thing that we perceive, and there has to be some physical representation of that category (atomic particles that make up an apple, for example). So our shared reality in a sense depends on discriminating knowledge. But it sounds to me like mindfulness is undiscriminating experience. Something about temporarily letting go of the discriminating world and entering an experiential state seems to have healthy, enjoyable consequenes for our brains. Which makes sense, because I doubt very many other species (or none at all?) of any order even have a discriminating world. They don't "work" to acquire what they need, so they can return to their lives and enjoy it. It happens in the process of living. This was probably a default human state as well before language was developed.
That's a very longwinded way of saying that I'm finding many facets of this mindfulness business popping up, and recalling many more I've heard about before (Ecclesiastes 1 comes to mind in addition to Flow), and so I think it must be important. Cultivating a practice of mindfulness will be a big goal of mine, moving forward. I've got a lot of work to do, but at the very least, maybe I'll be able to breathe easy.
If anyone has any other good resources on the subject, please point the way.
Ever since a recent surgery, I've had trouble breathing. I'd never really noticed my breath before. Inhaling and exhaling were just things that happened, and I take the fact that it never caught my attention as a sign of functionality. But whether due to scar tissue, long-held tension of the abdominal wall during recovery, stress, lack of activity, I had to concentrate to get a really nice, deep breath. And when my attention wandered, I'd often forget to breathe at all, leading to periodic gasps punctuating short, irregular breaths. I noticed myself waking up to gasp, a possible sign that I'd developed sleep apnea, and I could tell my breathing had been shallow because my lungs felt "wet" and a single deep breath brought them back to a normal state, as if most of them just hadn't been filled in a while. So I decided to fix it.
That's what started my interest in mindfulness. I found out about yoga nidra, a practice where you lie on your back and clear your head, focusing on breath and relaxation, or tracking a single element such as sound. By giving the mind one thing in the present to do, the wandering ceases, breath deepens and slows, muscles relax, and you melt into the floor in a puddle of bliss. A fellow I'd already known about for his incredible work on stretching, Kit Laughlin, has a number of free MP3s available where he talks through a ~30 minute yoga nidra session so I began to do it every day. (If anyone would like the links for their own practice, PM me, they're free and in the public domain). Immediately, my breath improved. Not to perfection. But when I do it daily, things creep towards a normal state, and when I miss a day or two, they creep back. It all seems to be related to mindfulness in that when I am present in the moment, not thinking about the past or future or planning out anything, I can breathe, and relax.
My goal has been to continue that state beyong my yoga nidra practice, by focusing on the moment when I am walking, sitting on the bus, etc.--times when my mind is very like to "go on walkabout" as Kit says. I've always rather enjoyed my thoughts, and there are a lot of good reasons to let them do their thing. The problem comes when you can't stop them from doing their thing, even when you want to. Achieving lengthy bouts of mindfulness in daily life has been hard, but as I practice, I can make them longer and longer. I find it helps to focus on one thing, like sound as an experience, the movement of the crowd walking around me, my own movement, or even better, my breath.
I've also been reading authors like Marcus Aurelius and Lao Tzu. It was very striking to me when I realized that mindfulness--being present in the moment without fear, desire, or judgment--appears in a number of different ways across different times, cultures, religions, even science. It sounded like Marcus Aurelius and Lao Tzu were talking about more or less the same thing as the swamis of yoga nidra. Then I remembered having read about a state called "flow" as described by a guy whose name I will never be able to say aloud, Mihály Csíkszentmihályi. Flow is a psychological state of singular focus, also called being in the zone and a number of other things, where your attention on the matter at hand leads to creativity, performance, and satisfaction beyond what you are able to achieve outside a state of flow. It's interesting to me to hear mindfulness described so many ways by so many different people. I doubt the human brain is capable of entering a number of distinct but very similar states, so I have to think they're all talking about the same state as they experience it.
Having just finished One Straw Revolution by Masonobu Fukuoka, I stumbled upon yet another desription on mindfulness, this time in the form of being connected with nature and practicing natural agriculture. Not surprising since he references Lao Tzu a few times, but one of the most interesting sections of the book is where Fukuoka does into discriminating knowledge vs. non-discriminating knowledge.
From the interpeter: "Discriminating knowledge is derived from the analytical, willful intellect in an attempt to organize experience into a logical framework...Non-discriminating knowledge arises without conscious effort on the part of the individual when experience is accepted as it is, without interpretation by the inellect." So non-discriminating doesn't try to categorize or make sense of things. His do-nothing farming would just have the inividual work in harmony with nature, as opposed to trying to compartmentalize it, "fix" it, and create other problems as a consequence. In the nutrition section, he stresses that focusing on macros and vitamins is just discriminating knowledge, whereas a natural diet would conist of just eating what was available to you through natural gorwing methods as it became available, without concern for anything as silly as a "balanced diet", or desiring things that were not inherent in the experience of growing and gathering seasonal food.
The colors and flavors and characteristics of what we think is desirable, healthy food are constructs of discriminating knowledge (which I'm beginning to think may be a linguistic problem, as we have to describe our experiences to one another somehow, and that leads to categories and discriminations between them). The natural method of farming and eating is simply an experience. I may not be describing this well, but it strikes me as no different than the other version of mindfulness I've heard, whether from a Stoic who makes no distinction between good luck and misfortune, or the seemingly circular phrases you would find from Buddha (form is emptiness and emptiness is form) and Lao Tzu (The five colors blind the eye; The five tones deafen the ear; The five flavors dull the tatse; Racing and hunting madden the mind; Precious things lead one astray; Therefore the sage is guided by what he feels and not by what he sees; He lets go of that and chooses this).
And then this morning, I stumbled onto an interesting article about the very thin line between hallucination and reality: http://psychiatristscottsdale.com/hallu ... s-reality/
Some pertinent quotes:
"As humans we cannot know the extended world (reality) intrinsically. This is one thing that all philosophers agree on. Nobody will ever know what subsumes sub-sub-sub-sub atomic particles or quarks, the items which ultimately constitute all matter and reality. I can say this with certainty because we will never know “when we reached the bottom”, or have found the primitive substance of which matter is made of.."
"What we perceive about the world is really seen through our conceptual framework and senses...Remember that what we see as a moth, a Fruit Bat might see as a radar blip."
"So we might conclude that our reality is mediated by an image that our mind creates through our senses which is provoked by an object in the real world which has a causal influence or power to produce the sense datum which is presented to our minds."
In order for us to call something reality, we have to all agree on the category of thing that we perceive, and there has to be some physical representation of that category (atomic particles that make up an apple, for example). So our shared reality in a sense depends on discriminating knowledge. But it sounds to me like mindfulness is undiscriminating experience. Something about temporarily letting go of the discriminating world and entering an experiential state seems to have healthy, enjoyable consequenes for our brains. Which makes sense, because I doubt very many other species (or none at all?) of any order even have a discriminating world. They don't "work" to acquire what they need, so they can return to their lives and enjoy it. It happens in the process of living. This was probably a default human state as well before language was developed.
That's a very longwinded way of saying that I'm finding many facets of this mindfulness business popping up, and recalling many more I've heard about before (Ecclesiastes 1 comes to mind in addition to Flow), and so I think it must be important. Cultivating a practice of mindfulness will be a big goal of mine, moving forward. I've got a lot of work to do, but at the very least, maybe I'll be able to breathe easy.
If anyone has any other good resources on the subject, please point the way.
Re: DSKla: Conversations with myself, aloud in public places
You're sounding a lot like Karl Jaspers now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Jaspers
"Most commentators associate Jaspers with the philosophy of existentialism, in part because he draws largely upon the existentialist roots of Nietzsche and Kierkegaard, and in part because the theme of individual freedom permeates his work. In Philosophy (3 vols, 1932), Jaspers gave his view of the history of philosophy and introduced his major themes. Beginning with modern science and empiricism, Jaspers points out that as we question reality, we confront borders that an empirical (or scientific) method simply cannot transcend. At this point, the individual faces a choice: sink into despair and resignation, or take a leap of faith toward what Jaspers calls Transcendence. In making this leap, individuals confront their own limitless freedom, which Jaspers calls Existenz, and can finally experience authentic existence.
Transcendence (paired with the term The Encompassing in later works) is, for Jaspers, that which exists beyond the world of time and space. Jaspers' formulation of Transcendence as ultimate non-objectivity (or no-thing-ness) has led many philosophers to argue that ultimately, Jaspers became a monist, though Jaspers himself continually stressed the necessity of recognizing the validity of the concepts both of subjectivity and of objectivity."
"Most commentators associate Jaspers with the philosophy of existentialism, in part because he draws largely upon the existentialist roots of Nietzsche and Kierkegaard, and in part because the theme of individual freedom permeates his work. In Philosophy (3 vols, 1932), Jaspers gave his view of the history of philosophy and introduced his major themes. Beginning with modern science and empiricism, Jaspers points out that as we question reality, we confront borders that an empirical (or scientific) method simply cannot transcend. At this point, the individual faces a choice: sink into despair and resignation, or take a leap of faith toward what Jaspers calls Transcendence. In making this leap, individuals confront their own limitless freedom, which Jaspers calls Existenz, and can finally experience authentic existence.
Transcendence (paired with the term The Encompassing in later works) is, for Jaspers, that which exists beyond the world of time and space. Jaspers' formulation of Transcendence as ultimate non-objectivity (or no-thing-ness) has led many philosophers to argue that ultimately, Jaspers became a monist, though Jaspers himself continually stressed the necessity of recognizing the validity of the concepts both of subjectivity and of objectivity."
Re: DSKla: Conversations with myself, aloud in public places
Very well said DSKla, I really enjoyed your post.
There are a number of us here who practice mindfulness (IlliniDave and myself come to mind) and I always enjoy hearing about another person's experience with it.
I enjoyed this in particular:
"From the interpeter: "Discriminating knowledge is derived from the analytical, willful intellect in an attempt to organize experience into a logical framework...Non-discriminating knowledge arises without conscious effort on the part of the individual when experience is accepted as it is, without interpretation by the inellect." So non-discriminating doesn't try to categorize or make sense of things. His do-nothing farming would just have the inividual work in harmony with nature, as opposed to trying to compartmentalize it, "fix" it, and create other problems as a consequence. In the nutrition section, he stresses that focusing on macros and vitamins is just discriminating knowledge, whereas a natural diet would conist of just eating what was available to you through natural gorwing methods as it became available, without concern for anything as silly as a "balanced diet", or desiring things that were not inherent in the experience of growing and gathering seasonal food."
I find myself getting way too caught up trying to categorize and use mental models to explain reality instead of experiencing it. With that said, I have found mental models (I recall a post of Dragline's emphasizing the use of Charlie Munger's lattice work of mental models) extremely useful as a means of understanding the world, so it is balancing act between being too caught up intellectualizing about the world and simply experiencing it as it actually is -- without a mental mode bound by language attempting to explain it.
I also liked:
"But it sounds to me like mindfulness is undiscriminating experience. Something about temporarily letting go of the discriminating world and entering an experiential state seems to have healthy, enjoyable consequenes for our brains. Which makes sense, because I doubt very many other species (or none at all?) of any order even have a discriminating world."
I have head people say "animals are fully enlightened", which sounds humorous but is actually probably not inaccurate given what enlightenment/mindfulness actually mean.
I wish I had some useful resources to share with you, but most of my experience has been personal practice with very little research. A very simple book on mindfulness I read is "Peace is Every Step: The Path of Mindfulness in Everyday Life" by Thich Nhat Hanh. If you are interested in reading it and unable to locate a copy at your library, I could mail you it.
Best of luck with your practice!
There are a number of us here who practice mindfulness (IlliniDave and myself come to mind) and I always enjoy hearing about another person's experience with it.
I enjoyed this in particular:
"From the interpeter: "Discriminating knowledge is derived from the analytical, willful intellect in an attempt to organize experience into a logical framework...Non-discriminating knowledge arises without conscious effort on the part of the individual when experience is accepted as it is, without interpretation by the inellect." So non-discriminating doesn't try to categorize or make sense of things. His do-nothing farming would just have the inividual work in harmony with nature, as opposed to trying to compartmentalize it, "fix" it, and create other problems as a consequence. In the nutrition section, he stresses that focusing on macros and vitamins is just discriminating knowledge, whereas a natural diet would conist of just eating what was available to you through natural gorwing methods as it became available, without concern for anything as silly as a "balanced diet", or desiring things that were not inherent in the experience of growing and gathering seasonal food."
I find myself getting way too caught up trying to categorize and use mental models to explain reality instead of experiencing it. With that said, I have found mental models (I recall a post of Dragline's emphasizing the use of Charlie Munger's lattice work of mental models) extremely useful as a means of understanding the world, so it is balancing act between being too caught up intellectualizing about the world and simply experiencing it as it actually is -- without a mental mode bound by language attempting to explain it.
I also liked:
"But it sounds to me like mindfulness is undiscriminating experience. Something about temporarily letting go of the discriminating world and entering an experiential state seems to have healthy, enjoyable consequenes for our brains. Which makes sense, because I doubt very many other species (or none at all?) of any order even have a discriminating world."
I have head people say "animals are fully enlightened", which sounds humorous but is actually probably not inaccurate given what enlightenment/mindfulness actually mean.
I wish I had some useful resources to share with you, but most of my experience has been personal practice with very little research. A very simple book on mindfulness I read is "Peace is Every Step: The Path of Mindfulness in Everyday Life" by Thich Nhat Hanh. If you are interested in reading it and unable to locate a copy at your library, I could mail you it.
Best of luck with your practice!
Re: DSKla: Conversations with myself, aloud in public places
@Dragline: Very interesting stuff. I've never heard of Jaspers, but that's another for my laundry list of a reading list. I am still very much an infant trying to make sense of things, so I'm hesitant to plant myself in any one school of thought, which is why I like the term "mindfulness"--for its open-endedness. That said, I'm finding that large pieces of a number of different philosophies appeal to me, and I have no trouble borrowing from what makes sense. I especially like the last bit, about recognizing the validity of both worlds--the subjective and the objective.
@Dave: Thanks for the recommendation. I may have to take you up on that offer after I finish a few more books I'm working on. Looking forward to hearing more updates on how your personal practice is going.
@Dave: Thanks for the recommendation. I may have to take you up on that offer after I finish a few more books I'm working on. Looking forward to hearing more updates on how your personal practice is going.
Re: DSKla: Conversations with myself, aloud in public places
Inspiration
A good friend of mine loaded up all his possessions into his 20 year old pickup and hit the road for his home in Virginia, today. He grew up a dirt-poor hillbilly, but he nevertheless has a 40 acre spread that's been in his family for generations. I know he has never read ERE or any personal finance blogs, but he told me he is going to set up a permaculture operation and find part-time work he really enjoyed to cover his minimal living expenses with housing and food being almost free. He plans to take jobs that teach him new skills he's interested in, and switch around to vary his employability options. And as an artist, he is going to build a few tiny houses and host art internships, where an artist can live on his property for three months and create permanent installations, whether that be an artistic tiny house, sculpture, etc (there is apparently grant money available for him to give the artists). On his end, he makes scultpures, furniture, and even living arrangements out of found materials--other people's trash. Pretty awesome example of an ERE life. I might have to join him some day. Talking to people in their 20's and 30's, I've noticed quite a few (at least in my circles) who are naturally beginning to gravitate towards a less consumptive, more self-reliant life in opposition to the values of their baby boomer parents. Maybe this is the first wave generation of a return to living in reality. I don't know. I just hope.
And now that my three best friends have all moved out of state within the last 9 months, my own clock is tick-tockin.
Norwegian (Bøkmal)
I just started learning Norwegian with a Duolingo beta program, one month in advance of my (almost entirely free) trip to Norway, Iceland, and the Faroes. I'd have started sooner, but it literally just got released. There are no easy, free Icelandic programs, and since all three are from the North Germanic language family, I juts decided to give it a go. I don't think it'll help outside of Norway, though, because Icelandic and Faroese are essentially the same versions of the language that were spoken 800 years ago, while Norwegian has evolved and modernized quite a bit. I am likely putting in a month's work for three days of trying my hand, but it's very fun to be learning a language again.
In particular, Norwegian doesn't seem that hard. Gender has minimal influence on words, and conjugating verbs is easier than the Romance languages (in that usually you don't have to do it at all). By far the hardest part is learning the pronunciations, as the words often look nothing like the way you say it. It's just a case of memorizing. I'm really happy with what I've learned in a few short days. Hopefully I can navigate all basic tourist situations by the time I get to Oslo in late June. At the very least, I know how to say coffee (kaffe), beer (øl), and meat (kjøtt), so my survival needs will be met.
Meditation
My mindfulness adventure has turned into full-blown daily meditation. Researching the topic has been incredibly interesting. I've found there are meditation traditions in most of the major religions, including among practitioners of magick. They all have different specific instructions, but they're extremely similar and seem to mostly go the same place (as I can't imagine the human brain changes between religion, there must be general ways that work and ways that don't). I even found instructions for daily meditation for Druid mages by John Michael Greer, of Archdruid Report fame. For now I'm content to be very non-magickal though.
I've settled on being a forager, taking what I need and leaving what I don't from anywhere I find something interesting. The Buddhist stuff is my favorite. I have no desire to become Buddhist, but clearly meditation is a huge part of their practice and so this is where I've found the greatest wealth of information. Someone on this forum linked to a book called Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha by Daniel Ingram, which was an invaluable read. The insight maps were great in helping me confirm when I'm making progress and knowing what may lie ahead. I am now able to consistently get into what he calls Stage Three, The Three Characteristics. Although the strict noting practice he likes was not entirely to my liking, so I do more of a TWIM style with a wider angle, no noting in words (just sensation), and staying with any sensation that distracts to examine it with equanimity rather than note and push aside. This has reduced the weird involuntary body movements quite a bit by I suppose just relaxing me more and being less forced. I still have a lot of strange facial twitches and especially swaying of the spine and hips when sitting. It was disconcerting at first, but now it's just kind of interesting.
The effect on my daily life so far has been, as I mentioned, more equanimity. I am letting go of annoying things a lot faster and more completely. A lot of things used to piss me off. Now they piss me off less, and are almost immediately forgotten. I don't know what I expect to get out of this in the long run, but my body awareness and mindfulness have increased with my equanimity, and I get bored or frustrated far less as well. If that's all I get, fantastic.
Spinal Waves
Lots of experimentation with wave training for mobility. I splurged $3.30 on this guy's video, (https://vimeo.com/ondemand/spinalwaves) and found it worth the money. Waves really are simple. Start by moving individual joints through ranges of motion, eventually string them all together in a wave pattern as motor control improves. Sounds too simple to work, but in my experience it's worked phenomenally well for not only the spine, but everything. Just the act of trying to move a joint will improve motor control over time. First I can't even find the joint in my mind, then I can move it but in a very herky jerky, ratchety way, then smoother, then it glides, then I can do it with minimal effort and add in a few other joints, so on and so forth. With all the crap I've seen people spouting for improving mobility and pain-free ranges, this is easily the cheapest and best. You can spend tons of money on gear to smash out soft tissues, but just moving in and out of end range on a daily basis with mindful concentration works the best, can be done anywhere, and requires no equipment.
I'm still quite new to it so I'll keep reporting the results.
Also preparing a long entry on breathing, a much more complicated subject than I realized.
A good friend of mine loaded up all his possessions into his 20 year old pickup and hit the road for his home in Virginia, today. He grew up a dirt-poor hillbilly, but he nevertheless has a 40 acre spread that's been in his family for generations. I know he has never read ERE or any personal finance blogs, but he told me he is going to set up a permaculture operation and find part-time work he really enjoyed to cover his minimal living expenses with housing and food being almost free. He plans to take jobs that teach him new skills he's interested in, and switch around to vary his employability options. And as an artist, he is going to build a few tiny houses and host art internships, where an artist can live on his property for three months and create permanent installations, whether that be an artistic tiny house, sculpture, etc (there is apparently grant money available for him to give the artists). On his end, he makes scultpures, furniture, and even living arrangements out of found materials--other people's trash. Pretty awesome example of an ERE life. I might have to join him some day. Talking to people in their 20's and 30's, I've noticed quite a few (at least in my circles) who are naturally beginning to gravitate towards a less consumptive, more self-reliant life in opposition to the values of their baby boomer parents. Maybe this is the first wave generation of a return to living in reality. I don't know. I just hope.
And now that my three best friends have all moved out of state within the last 9 months, my own clock is tick-tockin.
Norwegian (Bøkmal)
I just started learning Norwegian with a Duolingo beta program, one month in advance of my (almost entirely free) trip to Norway, Iceland, and the Faroes. I'd have started sooner, but it literally just got released. There are no easy, free Icelandic programs, and since all three are from the North Germanic language family, I juts decided to give it a go. I don't think it'll help outside of Norway, though, because Icelandic and Faroese are essentially the same versions of the language that were spoken 800 years ago, while Norwegian has evolved and modernized quite a bit. I am likely putting in a month's work for three days of trying my hand, but it's very fun to be learning a language again.
In particular, Norwegian doesn't seem that hard. Gender has minimal influence on words, and conjugating verbs is easier than the Romance languages (in that usually you don't have to do it at all). By far the hardest part is learning the pronunciations, as the words often look nothing like the way you say it. It's just a case of memorizing. I'm really happy with what I've learned in a few short days. Hopefully I can navigate all basic tourist situations by the time I get to Oslo in late June. At the very least, I know how to say coffee (kaffe), beer (øl), and meat (kjøtt), so my survival needs will be met.
Meditation
My mindfulness adventure has turned into full-blown daily meditation. Researching the topic has been incredibly interesting. I've found there are meditation traditions in most of the major religions, including among practitioners of magick. They all have different specific instructions, but they're extremely similar and seem to mostly go the same place (as I can't imagine the human brain changes between religion, there must be general ways that work and ways that don't). I even found instructions for daily meditation for Druid mages by John Michael Greer, of Archdruid Report fame. For now I'm content to be very non-magickal though.
I've settled on being a forager, taking what I need and leaving what I don't from anywhere I find something interesting. The Buddhist stuff is my favorite. I have no desire to become Buddhist, but clearly meditation is a huge part of their practice and so this is where I've found the greatest wealth of information. Someone on this forum linked to a book called Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha by Daniel Ingram, which was an invaluable read. The insight maps were great in helping me confirm when I'm making progress and knowing what may lie ahead. I am now able to consistently get into what he calls Stage Three, The Three Characteristics. Although the strict noting practice he likes was not entirely to my liking, so I do more of a TWIM style with a wider angle, no noting in words (just sensation), and staying with any sensation that distracts to examine it with equanimity rather than note and push aside. This has reduced the weird involuntary body movements quite a bit by I suppose just relaxing me more and being less forced. I still have a lot of strange facial twitches and especially swaying of the spine and hips when sitting. It was disconcerting at first, but now it's just kind of interesting.
The effect on my daily life so far has been, as I mentioned, more equanimity. I am letting go of annoying things a lot faster and more completely. A lot of things used to piss me off. Now they piss me off less, and are almost immediately forgotten. I don't know what I expect to get out of this in the long run, but my body awareness and mindfulness have increased with my equanimity, and I get bored or frustrated far less as well. If that's all I get, fantastic.
Spinal Waves
Lots of experimentation with wave training for mobility. I splurged $3.30 on this guy's video, (https://vimeo.com/ondemand/spinalwaves) and found it worth the money. Waves really are simple. Start by moving individual joints through ranges of motion, eventually string them all together in a wave pattern as motor control improves. Sounds too simple to work, but in my experience it's worked phenomenally well for not only the spine, but everything. Just the act of trying to move a joint will improve motor control over time. First I can't even find the joint in my mind, then I can move it but in a very herky jerky, ratchety way, then smoother, then it glides, then I can do it with minimal effort and add in a few other joints, so on and so forth. With all the crap I've seen people spouting for improving mobility and pain-free ranges, this is easily the cheapest and best. You can spend tons of money on gear to smash out soft tissues, but just moving in and out of end range on a daily basis with mindful concentration works the best, can be done anywhere, and requires no equipment.
I'm still quite new to it so I'll keep reporting the results.
Also preparing a long entry on breathing, a much more complicated subject than I realized.
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Re: DSKla: Conversations with myself, aloud in public places
The Victorians were really into muscle control (flexing individual muscles). It might be interesting. You can probably find something/old books/texts on Sandowplus(?)
Re: DSKla: Conversations with myself, aloud in public places
I'll dig around. That's basically what it is--flex a single muscle. Like the scene in Kill Bill where she wiggles her toe. Some vertebrae wiggle easily. Some, I swear I've never felt move alone before. They're tied to other things, and it's surreal the first time everything above a single vertebrae starts to pivot around it as a unit.
Re: DSKla: Conversations with myself, aloud in public places
Duolingo Norwegian Update
I am leaving for Norway later today. As soon as Duolingo released their beta version of the Norwegian course, I jumped on it. That was about four weeks ago. Coming in, the only Germanic language I knew was a little bit of English. My only other experience has been with Romance languages. I wasn't even sure how to say yes and no, though I imagined yes would be something like "ja" based on all the Nazi movies I've seen (I was correct). So I think the past month has been a great test of Duolingo's ability to teach someone a new language with zero previous experience.
Unfotunately, they don't track how many hours you've spent on it, but I'd estimate 40 hours, give or take. I reached level 11, out of a possible 25. The levels just track XP, so you level up by passing new lessons and reviewing old ones. Not necessarily an indication of your proficiency, but I like the video game style reward system. Even though it was a beta, I would give the course 5 stars. Duolingo makes you speak, transcribe spoken sentences (by far the hardest), and translate written texts both from your language to the new one, and vice-versa, and somehow it was fun and entertaining. I still have a number of lessons I didn't have time to get through (you access new lessons by finishing old ones, the way you access new powers in an ability tree in a video game), but I did all the foundational stuff.
I am very confident that I now have a toursit-level ability to speak Norwegian, which means I know how to ask and answer most things that I am likely to need. I am definitely far from conversational, but I can compose long sentences without making an error (or maybe just one or two small ones, like gender-bending). I am also pretty good at reading a sentence and figuring out what it means, even if I don't know all of the words. The most difficult thing for me, in this and all other languages, is trying to understand native speakers on the fly. When they don't go very slowly and enunciate, I have a hard time picking out the words unless I'm very familiar with them. That said, for only a month of practice, I am shocked at how much I learned. Pretty excited to try it out and make a fool of myself. I'd estimate that I could attain basic fluency in another 2-3 months of practice. Then I would need immersion to become conversational, which would require going outside Duolingo for books, movies, and Norwegian friends.
As a language, Norwegian was surprisingly easy. I'd heard terrible things about Icelandic, which is in the same family, but it basically hasn't changed for 800 years or so, while Norsk is very modern and similar to English in a lot of ways. It's easier than French, which is my best language outside English, and on par with Spanish. No verb conjugations, hallellujah! Only minimal genderal changes, mostly distinguishing between male or neuter and ignoring female (languages are so misogynistic). So maybe the language I chose has a big influence on how effective Duolingo was.
Even though I imagine the utility will vanish once I return from vacation, I plan to push this language ahead to fluency for my own amusement. Then I plan to do similar 3 month cycles of Spanish and French, to try to get all three to comfortable fluency.
At the very least, I am super comfortable ordering coffee, meat, and beer.
Anyone else have a Duolingo experience?
I am leaving for Norway later today. As soon as Duolingo released their beta version of the Norwegian course, I jumped on it. That was about four weeks ago. Coming in, the only Germanic language I knew was a little bit of English. My only other experience has been with Romance languages. I wasn't even sure how to say yes and no, though I imagined yes would be something like "ja" based on all the Nazi movies I've seen (I was correct). So I think the past month has been a great test of Duolingo's ability to teach someone a new language with zero previous experience.
Unfotunately, they don't track how many hours you've spent on it, but I'd estimate 40 hours, give or take. I reached level 11, out of a possible 25. The levels just track XP, so you level up by passing new lessons and reviewing old ones. Not necessarily an indication of your proficiency, but I like the video game style reward system. Even though it was a beta, I would give the course 5 stars. Duolingo makes you speak, transcribe spoken sentences (by far the hardest), and translate written texts both from your language to the new one, and vice-versa, and somehow it was fun and entertaining. I still have a number of lessons I didn't have time to get through (you access new lessons by finishing old ones, the way you access new powers in an ability tree in a video game), but I did all the foundational stuff.
I am very confident that I now have a toursit-level ability to speak Norwegian, which means I know how to ask and answer most things that I am likely to need. I am definitely far from conversational, but I can compose long sentences without making an error (or maybe just one or two small ones, like gender-bending). I am also pretty good at reading a sentence and figuring out what it means, even if I don't know all of the words. The most difficult thing for me, in this and all other languages, is trying to understand native speakers on the fly. When they don't go very slowly and enunciate, I have a hard time picking out the words unless I'm very familiar with them. That said, for only a month of practice, I am shocked at how much I learned. Pretty excited to try it out and make a fool of myself. I'd estimate that I could attain basic fluency in another 2-3 months of practice. Then I would need immersion to become conversational, which would require going outside Duolingo for books, movies, and Norwegian friends.
As a language, Norwegian was surprisingly easy. I'd heard terrible things about Icelandic, which is in the same family, but it basically hasn't changed for 800 years or so, while Norsk is very modern and similar to English in a lot of ways. It's easier than French, which is my best language outside English, and on par with Spanish. No verb conjugations, hallellujah! Only minimal genderal changes, mostly distinguishing between male or neuter and ignoring female (languages are so misogynistic). So maybe the language I chose has a big influence on how effective Duolingo was.
Even though I imagine the utility will vanish once I return from vacation, I plan to push this language ahead to fluency for my own amusement. Then I plan to do similar 3 month cycles of Spanish and French, to try to get all three to comfortable fluency.
At the very least, I am super comfortable ordering coffee, meat, and beer.
Anyone else have a Duolingo experience?
Re: DSKla: Conversations with myself, aloud in public places
Your post inspired me to finally try it out (for German). I leveled up to 5 and got to 4% proficiency in about an hour, I expect it will get more difficult from here on. I like the method, you can quickly go through the easy stuff and concentrate more on what you don't know so well (unlike a group language class where you have to match the group's tempo regardless of the topic).
I stumbled upon a discussion on the message boards where a guy bragged he had spent 264 days to finish the whole German tree, but was then unable to understand or reply to fairly simple questions about his experience in German. I hope that's just anecdotal, probably goes to show that no method itself will be able to teach you, it is you who has to want to actually do the work.
Thanks for the push and have a good trip!
I stumbled upon a discussion on the message boards where a guy bragged he had spent 264 days to finish the whole German tree, but was then unable to understand or reply to fairly simple questions about his experience in German. I hope that's just anecdotal, probably goes to show that no method itself will be able to teach you, it is you who has to want to actually do the work.
Thanks for the push and have a good trip!
Re: DSKla: Conversations with myself, aloud in public places
I'm trying it out too, for Spanish. I was a little put off by the fact that it doesn't seem to work very well with Firefox, though. I had to use IE to register because clicking the register button didn't work, and it doesn't remembering the login. I've also been using the Pimsleur audio book (borrowed it) and http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/spanish/ (video). The last one teaches the Spanish spoken in Spain, which is an advantage to Europeans like me. The main advantage of the audio book is that I can listen to it while riding the bus to work. It's also very good at using words in many different kinds of sentences and settings, which I think has helped me better understand how to build sentences.
Re: DSKla: Conversations with myself, aloud in public places
I hope you have a great trip. I went to Oslo a few years back. It was around the holidays, though, so the weather wasn't the best. I have ben on Duolingo before, and your post made me remember it so I think I may jump back on there. I was taking Danish. I didn't spend too much time then because I was in a Danish class at the time. However, this reminds me that I need to get back on there as the platform is quite easy to use, and dar I say it, kind of fun. 
Re: DSKla: Conversations with myself, aloud in public places
An update on the Duolingo experience: a 6-day streak, 8 levels and "28% fluency" into it I still find it useful and well thought out as a learning experience. I like how it prompts you to refresh things you've stumbled with and how the phrases and sentences to be translated are sometimes non-conventional/absurd enough to conjure an image that is easy to remember:)
I wish there was an option to focus on a language without having to choose a base language.. English and German are similar enough from my perspective so that learning German "for English speakers" confuses me more than it helps.
I wish there was an option to focus on a language without having to choose a base language.. English and German are similar enough from my perspective so that learning German "for English speakers" confuses me more than it helps.
Re: DSKla: Conversations with myself, aloud in public places
@henrik: I think "for english speakers" just determines what language the instructions and the translations will be in. For example, when you click on a word, the definition will appear in English. Each lesson is programmed by different people, so for there to be a "German for Icelandic speakers," for example, some Icelandic speakers would need to essentially reprogram the entire set of lessons. I understand that it's mostly volunteers dojng this, so there can be long waits on new languages.
Unfortunately, everyone in Scandinavia speaks English and I didn't ever need to use Norwegian in a conversation. That's good, because between the speed of their talking and the various accents, I had extreme difficulty doing any better than picking out a few words. Where it DID come in handy was with reading signs, maps, etc. When I can see the words printed I do a lot better. Even when I had never seen a particular word before, I was often able to figure out what it meant by the roots, or the context. And the pronunciation practice prevented me from embarrassing myself when ordering food, drinks, saying place names, and the like. I need a lot more practice, though.
Once I got to Iceland, all bets were off. The languages are so different. I was able to pick up on a few words on signs based on their similarity to the Norwegian, but I was hopeless. Luckily they speak the English very well there. Same deal in the Faroes, though the Danish influence made the signage easier than in Iceland.
Duolingo is a great wY to get a basic handle on a language, but ultimately you need immersion. The words I could understand in speech were the ones I'd practiced a lot in Duolingo. I'm convinced the only way to pick up spoken words is to hVe heard them a certain number of times. If you haven't heard them enough, they're too hard to separate from words you don''t know. This is also affected by accents. For example, my girlfriend obviously speaks English, but when she visited the sotuh with me, she coudln't understand a word certain people were speaking, while I understood perfectly, because I'm used to the accent. Certain Norwegians were easier to understand depending on their accent and how fast or slowly they spoke.
I will continue to work on the language as a personal challenge, then I am going to switch to Spanish. It's more practical and there are plenty of immersion opportunities for me. Still, I recommend the app to anyone starting from scratch and wanting to get the fundamentals of a language. Once you exhaust the Duolingo lessons, though, you will need to seek out immersion practice (movies, books, conversation with native speakers) to actully become fluent.
Unfortunately, everyone in Scandinavia speaks English and I didn't ever need to use Norwegian in a conversation. That's good, because between the speed of their talking and the various accents, I had extreme difficulty doing any better than picking out a few words. Where it DID come in handy was with reading signs, maps, etc. When I can see the words printed I do a lot better. Even when I had never seen a particular word before, I was often able to figure out what it meant by the roots, or the context. And the pronunciation practice prevented me from embarrassing myself when ordering food, drinks, saying place names, and the like. I need a lot more practice, though.
Once I got to Iceland, all bets were off. The languages are so different. I was able to pick up on a few words on signs based on their similarity to the Norwegian, but I was hopeless. Luckily they speak the English very well there. Same deal in the Faroes, though the Danish influence made the signage easier than in Iceland.
Duolingo is a great wY to get a basic handle on a language, but ultimately you need immersion. The words I could understand in speech were the ones I'd practiced a lot in Duolingo. I'm convinced the only way to pick up spoken words is to hVe heard them a certain number of times. If you haven't heard them enough, they're too hard to separate from words you don''t know. This is also affected by accents. For example, my girlfriend obviously speaks English, but when she visited the sotuh with me, she coudln't understand a word certain people were speaking, while I understood perfectly, because I'm used to the accent. Certain Norwegians were easier to understand depending on their accent and how fast or slowly they spoke.
I will continue to work on the language as a personal challenge, then I am going to switch to Spanish. It's more practical and there are plenty of immersion opportunities for me. Still, I recommend the app to anyone starting from scratch and wanting to get the fundamentals of a language. Once you exhaust the Duolingo lessons, though, you will need to seek out immersion practice (movies, books, conversation with native speakers) to actully become fluent.
Re: DSKla: Conversations with myself, aloud in public places
http://secondnexus.com/technology-and-i ... -the-past/
I won't pretend to understand quantum physics, but if this is accurate, it has really interesting implications. The first thing that came to mind was meditation, and how it generally involves observation of experience in the present. We know that observing something differently can change your perspective, but according to this article it may actually change the physical universe at a particle level. Oh, and it's possible that an observation in the future can change a measurement in the present. I can't even wrap my head around this can of worms, but I think it'll be fuel for some interesting thinkin' and a-wonderin'.
I won't pretend to understand quantum physics, but if this is accurate, it has really interesting implications. The first thing that came to mind was meditation, and how it generally involves observation of experience in the present. We know that observing something differently can change your perspective, but according to this article it may actually change the physical universe at a particle level. Oh, and it's possible that an observation in the future can change a measurement in the present. I can't even wrap my head around this can of worms, but I think it'll be fuel for some interesting thinkin' and a-wonderin'.
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Re: DSKla: Conversations with myself, aloud in public places
But unfortunately no practical implications for us ordinary humans. Only for high energy physics.DSKla wrote: ... if this is accurate, it has really interesting implications.
Time at the human level and the biomolecular [brain] level still moves forward in a causal manner.
Quantum mechanics is to a large degree [as far as physicists are concerned] just a tool to describe the outcome of experiments. Similar to how accounting is used to keep books. Post-Bacon science is very instrumental in nature and QM is especially do. Like its classical counterpart, QM does not explicitly state or consider philosophical implications. Those are often assumed(*) by the physicists but they are not really required for the actual physics. However, much thought [such as this experiment] has gone into figuring out whether it's possible say something more "meaningful" about reality than simply "If I do experiment X, theory says I'll get result x".
(*) For example, a common and very subtle assumption is that you can't have two objects in exactly the same place. Pondering this assumption reveals a lot about what we mean by the concept of "object" and "place".