How do ERE men attract women?

[7Wannabe5]

it'sagreatday said: Really, a man who is teachable and eager to please is more than sufficient when sex becomes a factor in a relationship.

Like a puppy? ; )

Please believe that I am not trying to be snarky here when I suggest that if this is really your core desire then you are likely a sexual dominant. The power dynamic in sex-absent-of-love (if such a thing existed) runs up and down the "masculine" hierarchy. Therefore, a dominant is somebody who is adult or mature in his/her masculine energy. This doesn't necessarily mean that a person has a lot of sexual energy or a high drive. I think it has something to do with relative levels of testosterone, estrogen, oxytocin, dopamine and serotonin and ? and/or sensitivity to these chemicals. I have a lot of juvenile masculine energy (high dopamine, high testosterone sensitivity) and a preference for high oxytocin levels. So, I am a very high drive cuddly sexual submissive which makes me sort of like a popular mixer on the sexual market. A femme domme such as yourself is much more rare and valuable on the open market. My first husband was a low drive, not-cuddly, very edgy switch so we were quite mismatched over the long-run. My current SO is a very high drive, cuddly dominant so we match much better. If I said something to him (I have done this on occasion) like "Wouldn't you like it if I played hard-to-get sometimes in order to increase arousal levels?" his response would be something like "Shut up and get naked." Of course, this does not speak to the strategy of withholding sex in order to increase time in proximity with male partner in order to cause rise in his level of chemical that causes him to think you are somebody he should protect. (I always forget the name of this chemical but it is much higher in men than women and it takes about 3 months of proximity to attain highest level.) So, keeping a man in pursuit/courtship mode for several months will maximize this but another successful strategy is to just keep showing up.

[steveo73]

Sex is now starting to sound like too hard work for me. I'm going to be abstinent from now on. I have been anyway but at least I can state that its a personal choice now.

[iceet]

(I always forget the name of this chemical but it is much higher in men than women and it takes about 3 months of proximity to attain highest level.) So, keeping a man in pursuit/courtship mode for several months will maximize this but another successful strategy is to just keep showing up.

Vasopressin my dear, also known as antidiuretic hormone (ADH).

[iceet]

Sex is now starting to sound like too hard work for me. I'm going to be abstinent from now on. I have been anyway but at least I can state that its a personal choice now.

Care to explain why it's too hard work for you? Courtship is supposed to be fun, that's why we do it. If it's stressful for you maybe we need to re-evaluate some things.

We are here to help.

[steveo73]

I'm just joking with you. I'm married and have been for 12 years. My idea of courtship is a slap on the bum prior to going to bed.

[Dragline]

I'm just joking with you. I'm married and have been for 12 years. My idea of courtship is a slap on the bum prior to going to bed.

Yes, but who is the slapper and who is the slappee? Or perhaps you just take turns.

[7Wannabe5]

steve073 said: Sex is now starting to sound like too hard work for me. I'm going to be abstinent from now on. I have been anyway but at least I can state that its a personal choice now.

Lol- Well, of course, you don't have to read and discuss books on the science of cooking in order to prepare or enjoy a decent meal. I am just a hopeless nerd who spent 19 years in monogamous relationship with a man whose sex drive was (and remains according to all 3rd party accounts of his current love life) approximately 1/10 as high as mine...so, I was interested and motivated to do some research on the topic. I have intellectual conversations about sex with pretty much everybody, even my INTP S26, because I am curious about such things as why he wouldn't go for the perfectly attractive little blonde girl who covered his neck with hickies and instead remained hung-up on a seemingly unattainable curvy Brazilian beauty etc. etc.

iceet said: Vasopressin my dear, also known as antidiuretic hormone (ADH).

That's it! Thanks. Very interesting to me. Once you know about it's existence, it becomes very clear that it varies in quantitative level and qualitative expression from individual to individual and also with factors such as age, territory/resource/asset acquisition/levels and level of extroversion vs. introversion, etc. Of particular interest to me is the way in which it interacts with the male tendency towards polygamy. Young men without territorial ownership or assets tend more towards "catch and release" roaming polygamy and older men with well-defined territory and high resource levels tending towards "catch and hoard" polygamy. The reason why it is of interest to me is that my current SO was practicing overt polygamy before he met me and I had to demand contract of monogamy from him ..which was really a stupid thing to do because although most women hate and despise polygamy it is really an issue to be wrangled out between men or dominants (not sure about which of these is more true) in accordance with population demographics and issues of equity in resource distribution etc. Endless suck-hole of life energy to try to walk fence from submissive posture. Overt hoarding polygamy is an extremely expensive practice to maintain on the current market. Obvious evidence for this being that the young frugal men on this forum debate whether it is even possible or in their self-interest to eventually keep one woman. Of course, this is also complicated by issues of possible children and or pet-substitutes to support. I actually have a hard time advising my own son and daughter on these matters.

[chenda]

@ the OP - honestly consider if you actually want a serious relationship, or if your just looking for a fuck buddy/friends with benefits type thing. There's nothing wrong with that, if both parties honest about it, but as others have said they tend to be short lived.

Do you feel pressured into conforming to the social norm of long term coupling ? It's not for everyone, and neither can you make them happen.

Relationships happen when there's mutual benefit each party, but its not possible to objectively understand or rationalise how they form. Other than increasing your social circle and meeting a wider number of MOTOS, there's actually very little you can do make them happen. Trying to change your personality or putting on an act is going to backfire on you in numerous ways.

(For full disclosure, I'm lying I'm bed in delicious solitude whilst the couple upstairs are having their daily screeming match, complete with broken furniture by the sounds of it)

[methpearice]

Thanks for your replies. To clarify, I don't visit the massage parlour often, maybe once every two months. I normally satiate my desires by myself for free and in private, and I do this maybe three times per week. The massage parlour I like to visit charges $150 for a half hour. It is not cheap but it is high quality. There is a girl who works there who I love dearly.

Like I said, I have been on dates and in relationships with girls, but I find that over time the pressure is too great to marry, have a wedding ceremony, buy an engagement ring, and have children, and I end the relationship because I fear I cannot maintain an 85% savings rate if I go down this path.

I feel society pushes me along a certain path: dating, relationship, engagement, wedding ceremony, marriage, and children. This is the standard consumerist conformist lifestyle propped up by religion, culture, TV, and literature. I understand that most mainstream personal finance advice focuses on the daily soy lattes, flat-screen TVs, and smartphones with powerful CPUs as examples of consumerism gone mad. But these things don't cost much. I find that it is the "virtuous" stuff that put most pressure on my 85% savings goal.

[sterlingarcher]

How would you feel if the girl in the massage parlour stopped working there and as a result never talked to you ever again?

If that would be fine with you, then I don't see any downside with this behaviour but I don't think you love her any more than I love my favorite coffee mug.

If it would crush your heart to see her gone it must mean you are fully capable of loving another woman and so there must be someone out there for you who doesn't do it for the money.

[7Wannabe5]

methpearice said: I find that it is the "virtuous" stuff that put most pressure on my 85% savings goal.

Sound observation. Also, I will differ from the crowd and conventional wisdom here and note that it is entirely possible that your favorite masseuse loves you back on some level. I once made the acquaintance a young woman (she was renting a room from a friend of mine) who made her living as a GFE (girlfriend experience) escort. I got the impression that she did love some of her regular clients in the way that a daycare teacher might love children who are not her own or a waitress might love the lonely old guy to whom she serves soup with a smile and a bit of companionable conversation. I didn't know that such thing as a girlfriend-experience escort existed before I met her and at first I found the notion appalling and pathetic. What kind of man is so desperate that he will pay a woman to act like she is his girlfriend? Based on her clientele, I determined that the answer was men-who-usually-want-a-girlfriend-but-are-currently-extremely-busy-with-business-venture, men-who-weigh-400-lbs., men-who-go-to-Amsterdam-on-"business", men-who-are-"trapped"-in-loveless-marriage and politicians. Anyways, after meeting this young woman, I decided that the necessary characteristics to be a successful sex worker are a kind heart or generous spirit and a very low repulsion barrier because she was the kind of person who would spontaneously start handing you slices of the orange she is eating while you are talking with her and she thought fart jokes were hilarious. Another thing I found interesting and surprising was that she almost always had a "real" boyfriend who was madly in love with her and trying to get her to quit being an escort. Last thing I heard, one had finally succeeded. Further interesting note would be that although I was in my mid-40s at the time, she was eager to offer me the opportunity to make $250/hr working in her field. I was like "Um...no offense meant...but, thanks but not thanks." - lol. Also, she was somebody who I could see being a member of this forum herself because she was very intelligent/intellectual (was working on her master's in political science) and she was saving most of her income to buy land.

Also...the truism that a young experienced-player platonic male friend shared with me was "Men don't pay prostitutes for the sex. They pay them to go away without a fuss afterwards." but, OTOH, what my young female escort friend shared with me was her observation that "Men don't pay me for the sex. They pay me for the "pretty." " and she was only very partially applying this adjective to her appearance, much more to her behavior.

[jacob]

Also consider that letting "love" be the primary goal is a relatively modern invention---by a bunch of adolescent French poets as far as I understand?!---and it is only a couple of hundred years old. Previously, other goals were optimized, both personal and societal. There's no reason that this [primary value] couldn't change again nor is there a reason that everybody should optimize love above all other considerations.

Everything can be considered some kind of transaction. Marrying based on optimized love with a host of exclusivity(*) byriders is just one way to do it. It is also the one that most people consider the only way just like they consider a career, an SUV, and $5 lattes the only way. Lack of imagination that is. It doesn't mean that there isn't some other ways.

(*) Probably the biggest source of inefficiency, no division of labor, no specialization, ... e.g. the person who can best relate to your psychology is probably not the person who is the best to have sex with is probably not the person to run the best household is probably not the person to have the most fun with is probably not the person to work with is probably not the person to discuss politics with. By demanding that all these be the same person you're always looking at suboptimal dimensions in some aspects. Marriage or exclusivity then becomes some quest of optimizing a package deal, here with emphasis on love, often for historical reasons.

[workathome]

I don't think bringing back arranged marriages would be bad, though I don't want to say that out loud and get stoned for it.

[GandK]

I don't think bringing back arranged marriages would be bad, though I don't want to say that out loud and get stoned for it.

There are definitely advantages. In the last job I had before I retired, I worked closely with an Indian woman whose marriage was arranged, and who spoke with her husband only a handful of times before they married. We spoke about it at length on several occasions, including the advantages and disadvantages we both could see between her culture's attitude to marriage and US culture.

Main advantage I spotted was that no one in Indian culture seems to believe that marriage/sex/merging lives will go smoothly. There's no illusion of riding off into the sunset, and extended family is ready from day one to help with any stressful situations that arise. This is a fantastic change from western marriage, where we are all encouraged to pretend to everyone that everything is going great all the time, even when things are incredibly dysfunctional. (Everyone go look at your Facebook feed for plenty of examples.) People's pride and social standing can take a hit here if it's revealed that your marriage is in trouble. There they assume everyone's needs help and act accordingly. Marriage is accepted to be work, and love - when it exists - is a daily choice.

On the other hand, the culture is highly misogynistic. Many marriage problems that would be seen as a couple's challenge here are put down in India to women not doing what women ought to do. More than one of my male Indian coworkers decided to seek US citizenship when they had daughters. They didn't want their daughters raised to see themselves as second-class citizens, and were quite open about this. And finally, when things like abuse and addictions surface, there's really no recourse in India. Divorce is shaming not only to the couple but to their entire extended family. The affected partner is stuck for life.

[methpearice]

How would you feel if the girl in the massage parlour stopped working there and as a result never talked to you ever again?

If that would be fine with you, then I don't see any downside with this behaviour but I don't think you love her any more than I love my favorite coffee mug.

She has already told me that she will leave and travel interstate sometime in the future, so I don't expect to see her for much longer. She is a young girl and a bit of a wanderer who travels around and is looking for a place to settle. I would actually feel quite bad when I walk in one day and find she is gone, but I know it will happen eventually.

My definition of love is that it is a feeling of strong desire for something or someone. We feel it for people and we feel it for non-living objects, e.g. I would love to drive a Lamborghini. But frugality is the lifestyle that I (or we) have committed to, and frugality requires the suppression of desire or the suppression of love.

Most girls (and most men as well) will look down on a frugal man, calling him "cheap" or "tightarse" or they will throw other insults at him. I've been a victim of this for so long I've become used to it. I see it as very similar to the Ferrari owner who would look down upon his counterparts who drive ordinary cars. The best way to react is to insulate yourself from these people. The more extreme your frugality is, the more people you need to insulate yourself from, and the more insulated you become, the more money you need to spend to cope with the isolation.

I don't want to live in total isolation like a monk. Even extreme frugality has its limits. Just because I don't want to buy a Ferrari using a car loan it doesn't mean I want to spend ten hours a day walking to and from work. I'm willing to pay cash for a used Camry. And just because I don't want to pay for the mortgage, marriage, diamond ring, and children it doesn't mean I never want to bond or connect with a girl. I'll just need to find a way to bond or connect at a lower cost and with no debt.

[theanimal]

The best way to react is to insulate yourself from these people. The more extreme your frugality is, the more people you need to insulate yourself from, and the more insulated you become, the more money you need to spend to cope with the isolation.
.

This is highly flawed. I don't find that true at all. Just because you live a different lifestyle doesn't mean you stop talking to other people. I believe it was Sclass who mentioned somewhere that he identifies one thing with each friend or acquaintance he has in common to talk about or bond over. For example, one might be investments, one might be related to cars or one might be for sports. You don't have to have the same exact interests as everyone else. It would be quite boring that way. But to think that you have to shut your self off from society is way off, and it's definitely not what ERE is about.

[Sclass]

Most girls (and most men as well) will look down on a frugal man, calling him "cheap" or "tightarse" or they will throw other insults at him. I've been a victim of this for so long I've become used to it. I see it as very similar to the Ferrari owner who would look down upon his counterparts who drive ordinary cars. The best way to react is to insulate yourself from these people.

I hear you. I've experienced a lot of this over my single years...and a lot from family and friends during my pseudo married years. But (there's always a "but" ), you're just seeing part of the deal and fixating on the part that is going against you.

There's a whole lotta people out there bro. You need to do some roaming. Though rare, a great ERE partner is out there hating the date she's on with the Ferrari driving douche bag.

The gals on this forum are an existence proof. You are just going to have to work a little harder than walking down to the sex worker and then giving up because it looks impossible. This may mean casting a wide Internet search, joining a movement that is more important than just yourself (selfish people repellent activities).

The ERE women here are amazing and the more I read their posts, the more I realize that ones like them surrounded me for years but I never even noticed them. Doh! Don't be like me and wait around half your life to stumble upon that perfect match. (my SO actually watched me from afar for many years before I came to my senses and asked her out. I met her by dating her materialist consumer roommate!)

Check out EGO's wife in their video. She loves the guy and the lifestyle. They exist!

The animal- Yes, and it was me who said find one thing you can have a great time relating to a friend through. Lord, I would not be able to talk system trading to my motorcycle buddies.

[steveo73]

I don't think bringing back arranged marriages would be bad, though I don't want to say that out loud and get stoned for it.

I love when people say things like this. Firstly I think they work more often than our love version of marriage plus arranged marriages are alive in well in India. I work with heaps of Indians. They basically all have arranged marriages.

[steveo73]

Most girls (and most men as well) will look down on a frugal man, calling him "cheap" or "tightarse" or they will throw other insults at him.

I think that people that do this are idiots. Its definitely not all girls either. I'd state that its the same number of men and women who mock people that are frugal.

My wife is more frugal than I am and she comes from a lot of money. Her dad use to glue her shoes together when they were falling apart whilst managing a billionaire's private hedge fund and sending her to an exclusive private school (it was paid for).

[Scrubby]

I love when people say things like this. Firstly I think they work more often than our love version of marriage plus arranged marriages are alive in well in India. I work with heaps of Indians. They basically all have arranged marriages.

But then they, and in particular the women, aren't really allowed to say anything else. If an arranged marriage "doesn't work" it just becomes institutionalized rape. If you really want an arranged marriage then all you have to do is to pick the first woman you find on the internet who feels the same way and marry her.