Living in SF Bay Area (SJ) – how can I cut housing costs?

[bryan]

Hey! Can you tell me more about your can life? I am very interested. Any issues finding a place to park overnight?

My schedule is very flexible so I am able to find good parking very easily. Parking would be more difficult in SF if I had to find a place to park during 8AM-7PM. SF has street sweeping and just after the sweeping is a great time to re-park. Some residential zones limit your parking choices during the day time on weekdays, though.

When people think of parking troubles, they are usually more thinking of having to walk a long way from their parking space to their bed.. which is a non-issue in the van. Usually I optimize my parking location for either where I want to be when I wake up or where I will end up later (via bike or walking or public transport) at night.

That's my experience from trying to park in very desirable areas (great views, great coffee/restaurants/bars, near a park, etc). Some nights I have the same views of the city as some $8M homes. Would be way, way easier still if you are OK with parking in areas with less residential lots.

How often do you move?

Pretty regularly actually. Street sweeping means at least moving across the street weekly. But I move around because I have friends all across the bay so enjoy hanging out in all the other cities, not just SF. SF is the hardest to park (and as mentioned above, it's not hard at all if you are flexible enough)

Though, I've seen some other vandwellers consistently parking in the same one block radius that is somewhat close to a gym. They never seem to move.

I actually like building things so this could be fun and I was thinking about trying this when I move to SF this fall but I'm a bit hesitant!

Nice! I like building too but inertia is more dominant. I've found my barebones lifestyle without any amenities (bathroom, kitchen, electricity) to be perfectly doable so I haven't built the van out at all. Before the van I built a loft in my room to get more lounging space.

If you go for it, I'd be down to help you out with your build if you in turn help me out. Or we could split costs of what we might need etc.

Another reason I've been delaying the build is I want to get it just right. A lot of vandwellers go through a couple vans before they know exactly what works or what they want. I'm more confident in my iterative planning.. measuring 10 times then changing the plan and measuring 10 more times before making a cut so to speak.

I actually like having roommates as I'm generally a loner and it helps to sometimes talk to like minded individuals without the stress of a romantic relationship.

Vandwelling is more lonely than having roommates for sure. Unless you commit to some tight community for hobbies.

My income is 210K from my job and my Monthly expense breakdown is:

With income and expenses like that... if you vandwell you could be FI in an extremely short amount of time if you aren't already.

All I hear is how very expensive SF is and it has kept me from moving there for a long time (not that Boston is cheap)! I hope I can move there by October! Thanks for your help!

Expenses in SF/CA are dominated by income taxes and dwelling costs. Otherwise, it isn't so bad. Grocery costs are some of the lowest in the country if you find the right markets (not Safeway, Whole Foods, or Trader Joe's). Free entertainment everywhere. No reason to own a car unless you have a silly commute or always go outside of the city on the weekends (or you live in one). etc

A boat would be about as cost effective as an RV.

Why anyone would pick an RV over a van (or essentially a Class B RV) and boondocking is beyond me

[Jehdlh]

Thanks all! For some reason I didn't get email notifications and I just manually checked. I will respond in full later. Quickly, what grocery stores do you recommend? I find TJs to be rather competitive in pricing although they focus on more "natural" "yuppy" customers so costs are higher than say Aldi. For instance, 1# of salted almonds are $5.99 and at Costco 3# unsalted is $16, not a *huge* difference and already salted... Are there any good co-ops available that are affordable? I usually shop for food at Costco, get packaged stuff from Amazon (their cost on curry and almond flour is way below anywhere else local that I've seen, for instance) and get whatever else at TJs (since I can't eat most vegetables due to my clotting disorder, I mainly eat proteins, meat, cheese, and some paleo-approved carbs).

I had zipcar back in the day and for 2 3 day weekends, my bill came to like $700. I said that's nuts and bought an old Audi wagon for $5000. Has it gotten cheaper? Doesn't seem so. What do people do when they want to go away for the weekend? How is Amtrak out there? If it costs $14/hr to go into the mountains to bike, and we are talking 45-50 miles away, that's going to be an 8-12 hour day, which means $112-168 per outing. That adds up rather quickly... maybe I can take my bike on Amtrak and get off somewhere to bike in the mountains? Otherwise, it doesn't seem to make much sense to get rid of my paid off car. Another option is to rent a Uhaul, one day is $20 for the truck plus $0.79/mile, 100 miles is $79 plus $30 for gas...that's cheaper and a full day. Hmm

When I mentioned living on the outskirts of SF, I meant like Mountain View, etc. Maybe I could find a nice person that wanted to rent a room in their home under $1k? In exchange for physics/math/CS tutoring? IDK, just thinking out loud... (I have seen those types of ads in Boston's craigslist, but mainly for foreign students to help their kids with a foreign language, but with SF being tech centered, maybe they want a PhD physicist to live with their kids?) But it seems my best bet may be renting a large victorian and airbnb'ing it or subleasing to people off CL and live for free? Has anybody on these forums accomplished this? I find the landlords don't care so long as they get their check on time each month.

I also heard that Bernal Heights is an "up in coming" area in SF that you can live in rather affordably?

This is a stupid question, but what if I want electricity to power my laptop and a 4k monitor (it would be nice to have two but that's pushing it, heh) and Internet in a vandwelling? What costs and options are we talking here? As for internet, I guess I'd have to get a 4G hotspot thru my mobile phone or something similar? That is getting rather expensive... I guess I shouldn't plan on working much in my van, if I get a van?

I have to run but I promise to respond point by point in the next few hours. Thank you all for your help!

[jacob]

Mountain View in particular since it has Google and NASA has many houses in which 3-5 techies join together and rent a house together.

[bryan]

Quickly, what grocery stores do you recommend? I find TJs to be rather competitive in pricing although they focus on more "natural" "yuppy" customers so costs are higher than say Aldi. For instance, 1# of salted almonds are $5.99 and at Costco 3# unsalted is $16, not a *huge* difference and already salted... Are there any good co-ops available that are affordable?

In San Francisco, you can stick to Asian/Hispanic markets. Rainbow co-op if you need organic stuff or certain bulk goods.

When I mentioned living on the outskirts of SF, I meant like Mountain View, etc.

Mountain View is not on the outskirts of SF I thought you meant what @llorona mentioned (Sunset, Excelsior, Hunter's Point, Daly City, etc).

I also heard that Bernal Heights is an "up in coming" area in SF that you can live in rather affordably?

I lived there shortly. If you do that, just try to be very close to Mission street for easy bus access and less hills so it's still bikeable. By "up in coming" people are talking about the side that faces the city or close to Mission. The neighbourhood is actually relatively more owners than other hoods, less rentals. It's already been established as a cool area for a few years, but of course not everyone can learn of cool areas at the same time.

If you wanted my opinion of "up in coming" it would be without a doubt certain areas in Oakland. Maybe Hunter's point eventually.

This is a stupid question, but what if I want electricity to power my laptop and a 4k monitor (it would be nice to have two but that's pushing it, heh) and Internet in a vandwelling? What costs and options are we talking here? As for internet, I guess I'd have to get a 4G hotspot thru my mobile phone or something similar? That is getting rather expensive... I guess I shouldn't plan on working much in my van, if I get a van?

You just need to build it out.

For electricity, a couple deep cycle batteries and charging from the alternator (if you move around the bay every few days like me) should be fine. Maybe solar if you plan on staying parked for extended periods. I would run everything DC to avoid DC->AC->DC power loss.

I just do USB tethering with my samsung phone. It's not an unlimited data plan, unfortunately, so I just avoid downloading large files or videos while tethered. Part of my plans would include having various antennas on top of the van.

[Jehdlh]

Mountain View in particular since it has Google and NASA has many houses in which 3-5 techies join together and rent a house together.

That would be perfect? Where do people go about finding roommates? On an email list at google? Where do you look for houses in SF? Is craisglist used, or do I need to reach out to a realtor? How much are we talking for a 3-5 bedroom house in Mountain View that is clean?

And if you aren't commuting during rush hours (which I assume is an hour or two later in SF than NYC/Boston), how long should I figure the commute to get into SF? Are there carpools or options if you live in MV and do NOT work for a tech company there?

[Jehdlh]

Quickly, what grocery stores do you recommend? I find TJs to be rather competitive in pricing although they focus on more "natural" "yuppy" customers so costs are higher than say Aldi. For instance, 1# of salted almonds are $5.99 and at Costco 3# unsalted is $16, not a *huge* difference and already salted... Are there any good co-ops available that are affordable?

In San Francisco, you can stick to Asian/Hispanic markets. Rainbow co-op if you need organic stuff or certain bulk goods.

When I mentioned living on the outskirts of SF, I meant like Mountain View, etc.

Mountain View is not on the outskirts of SF I thought you meant what @llorona mentioned (Sunset, Excelsior, Hunter's Point, Daly City, etc).

I also heard that Bernal Heights is an "up in coming" area in SF that you can live in rather affordably?

I lived there shortly. If you do that, just try to be very close to Mission street for easy bus access and less hills so it's still bikeable. By "up in coming" people are talking about the side that faces the city or close to Mission. The neighbourhood is actually relatively more owners than other hoods, less rentals. It's already been established as a cool area for a few years, but of course not everyone can learn of cool areas at the same time.

If you wanted my opinion of "up in coming" it would be without a doubt certain areas in Oakland. Maybe Hunter's point eventually.

This is a stupid question, but what if I want electricity to power my laptop and a 4k monitor (it would be nice to have two but that's pushing it, heh) and Internet in a vandwelling? What costs and options are we talking here? As for internet, I guess I'd have to get a 4G hotspot thru my mobile phone or something similar? That is getting rather expensive... I guess I shouldn't plan on working much in my van, if I get a van?

You just need to build it out.

For electricity, a couple deep cycle batteries and charging from the alternator (if you move around the bay every few days like me) should be fine. Maybe solar if you plan on staying parked for extended periods. I would run everything DC to avoid DC->AC->DC power loss.

I just do USB tethering with my samsung phone. It's not an unlimited data plan, unfortunately, so I just avoid downloading large files or videos while tethered. Part of my plans would include having various antennas on top of the van.

I'm gonna respond to everything later but you wanna touch base privately? Feel free to text me, # removed and we can discuss vandwelling and future plans etc... Where did you find the van? I assume there's some way to buy older box trucks thru a dealer or something? Can you let me know when you see this so I can remove my #? Not sure if I can send PMs here...

How much cheaper are asian/hispanic markets compared to regular grocery stores (Hannaford, Stop and Shop, Price Chopper, etc)? Can you find unique and natural items there, or for that you need to go to a co-op? Do they have any organics? Re meat- are they cheaper than costco? I am very impressed with costco's quality of meat and price!

EDIT: I figured out how to send a PM

[Jehdlh]

Hi! I'm sorry to have been incognito! I've been doing some research and was considering a container home. But I guess the downside of that is I'd need to buy land in CA? Or can I rent a spot at a trailer park? Are there any RV parks near San Francisco that are reasonably priced? Also, has anybody had a dog on their downsizing journey? Any issues I should be aware of? I'm planning on adopting a seven year old portuguese water dog in the next three months. I'll write more in the AM, thanks again!

[jacob]

A dog in CA will significantly reduce the amount of available rentals (including RV spaces). A dog weighing more than 25 pounds significantly more so. You'll have a lot more options without the dog.

[Jehdlh]

Why do RV spaces limit dogs? Has anyone here tried to get a large house and airbnb it in SF? Any real downsides to this? Like I said, I did it in Boston and had net positive income rather than paying rent, although it ties me to a physical structure, it does have its perks...

[jacob]

Why do RV spaces limit dogs?

I'm guessing that it's mainly a noise issue (RVs aren't very well insulated, so if the dog barks at sounds, it'll be barking constantly) and secondary to avoid big/dangerous dogs in close proximity to one's neighbors w/o fences, etc.

[Jehdlh]

The latter certainly makes sense, just strikes me as odd since I would assume most RVers would be dog lovers, but yeah, I get it...

Jacob, where in the SF area did you live? Do you have any idea if there are affordable RV parks within the city? What should I expect to pay in the SF area at an RV park? I'm still trying to figure out where to live in the area, and what other areas to explore. I'm used to Boston and NYC, which seem to be rather condensed, unlike SF, which is spread out...

[jacob]

See thread above. I think I already covered everything I know.

[llorona]

@Jehdlh:

I'm used to Boston and NYC, which seem to be rather condensed, unlike SF, which is spread out...

San Francisco is not spread out. At roughly 7x7 miles, the City itself is very compact.

What you are struggling with is that the SF Bay Area is a very large area composed of nine counties (Alameda, Contra Costa, Marin, Napa, San Francisco, San Matero, Santa Clara, Solano, Sonoma) with a population of over 7 million.

It's a matter of semantics, I know, but it's important to make these distinctions otherwise you may very well end up someplace different than where you intend to be.

Because SF is so small, space is at a premium. Hence, there is only one trailer park. It's located near Candlestick Park where the SF Giants used to play.

If you search on the Internet, you will be able to find information on other RV parks in the Bay Area. If you are planning on commuting to San Francisco, your best best would be to find a trailer park in the East Bay (Alameda or Santa Clara Counties) or the Peninsula (San Mateo or Northern Santa Clara County). Marin County may be another possibility, but it's very affluent and public transportation options are limited.

Speaking of which, traffic in the Bay Area is insane during rush hour and sometimes beyond. If you're considering living outside of SF, you should probably check out 511.org to determine your transportation options. If your office is located anywhere near downtown SF, you do not want to drive there unless: (a) your company is picking up the tab for parking, (b) you really like sitting in traffic, or (c) you have very odd hours like starting after 10 a.m. and leaving after 7 p.m.

[Jehdlh]

Thanks. That is helpful. I hear that about traffic in SF and LA all the time, but I wonder how bad it is: Can you compare it to Boston's rush hour scene? Does rush hour in SF run late since it's dominated by tech? That is, rather than 7-9 it is busy 8-1030ish?

[llorona]

@Jehdlh: I've never been to Boston so I can't give you a point of comparison. However, traffic in the SF Bay Area is pretty darned bad, especially during rush hour. Everyone I know who commutes into SF by car is miserable.

I work at home these days but I believe peak morning hours are roughly from 6:30 a.m. to 9:30 a.m. The problem is that since SF is mostly surrounded by water, there are only three major ways to get downtown by car, two of which are bridges. Because there are few alternate routes, one accident can tie up traffic for much longer.

Depending on which direction you're headed, the evening commute can begin as early as 3:00 p.m. and last as long as 7:00 p.m.

[Jehdlh]

@llorona thanks. Usually to commute to the nicer suburbs of Boston into Boston, you're looking at 1-1.5 hours. Everybody is miserable too. Is it comparable or even worse? What I'm thinking now is to find a home in the Valley somewhere and rent a room, or rent a large house, and rent out the other rooms. Living in SF itself would be nice but I think it's a bit ambitious doing that from the east coast, before living there. Any suggestions on areas to live? As for work, I work remotely as well, so long as Internet connection is good, I am in business.

[bryan]

@Jehdlh:...
Depending on which direction you're headed, the evening commute can begin as early as 3:00 p.m. and last as long as 7:00 p.m.

Traffic actually kind of begins after lunch time but stays at a comfortable, slow pace until about 2:30pm when things start getting thicker. Most of the traffic is clear by 8pm. Not sure about morning hours.. Usually pretty easy around 10am.

One thing I love about living in the van is having flexible commuting/travelling hours. Very rarely do I get into traffic (but sometimes I miss my window of opportunity and have to wait until the next one.. I really hate sitting in traffic).

[Jehdlh]

me too. i hate traffic. but at least being an academic and now being in the tech world, i've been able to work around rush hour.

[Jehdlh]

I am looking at available options and I see quite a bit in Berkeley. I know people have mentioned to live in Oakland, which Berkeley is above. What is the feasibility of living in Berkeley if most days you'll be in SF? Is BART economical and well liked? Is BART a good route for frequent trips between these two city pairs?

[jacob]

Google will give you transit times from Downtown Berkeley Station to Embarcadero.
Here are the prices https://www.bart.gov/tickets/calculator ... I like BART.

Berkeley is very nice ("hipster quaint") and very EXPENSIVE. It's where those who couldn't afford to live in San Francisco moved before they got rich (the techy hippies of the 1960s).