My catalist was when I dislocated my shoulder, high altitude chopper rescue included. In retrospective, this was one of the best things that ever happened to me!
I never went down the consumerist path, realized how little one needs to be happy, was displeased with office politics and careerism, and already managed to save a decent amount, but it took several weeks of no work no play to finally open a broker account and dig into the world of finance. Shortly after I fund this blog. Can't believe this happened already 2.5 years ago...
Your catalyst for ERE?
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Christopherjart
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:03 am
- Contact:
I never had a lightbulb turn on over my head moment. I was encouraged to see that it is possible to retire extremely early by managing savings rate (of course this is only really practical with a high salary say USA middle class+, but still it IS possible)
In reality looking back going from normal consumer to very frugal is a process that started years ago when I realized that living paycheck to paycheck is uncomfortable and I wasn't getting ahead ever. I'm still not really "ahead", but when those extra legal fees (like naturalization fees, etc.) appear I normal have savings to cover them. the social aspect of being a frugal saver is the most difficult for me. When I was 22 I wanted my C.K. jeans and I'd shop the sales racks at the mall. Now, I rarely buy clothes at a mall and I really could care less about brands. I collect much less stuff and I've gotten rid of many things over the last few years although my important document collection has grown, but that's out of my control.
Now at 36 soon to be 37 (in June), knowing that I'm still single and probably won't find a partner, it seems much more important to keep saving and become semi-retired as soon as possible.
In reality looking back going from normal consumer to very frugal is a process that started years ago when I realized that living paycheck to paycheck is uncomfortable and I wasn't getting ahead ever. I'm still not really "ahead", but when those extra legal fees (like naturalization fees, etc.) appear I normal have savings to cover them. the social aspect of being a frugal saver is the most difficult for me. When I was 22 I wanted my C.K. jeans and I'd shop the sales racks at the mall. Now, I rarely buy clothes at a mall and I really could care less about brands. I collect much less stuff and I've gotten rid of many things over the last few years although my important document collection has grown, but that's out of my control.
Now at 36 soon to be 37 (in June), knowing that I'm still single and probably won't find a partner, it seems much more important to keep saving and become semi-retired as soon as possible.
I grew up with frugal parents, so I have always been rather frugal. Overall, I lived below the norm. I decided to increase my savings, so I started looking for information.
My first information stop was magazines (Money, Fortune, Smart Money, Individual Investor, etc.). This took care of the "put 10% in your 401k and diversify" advice.
I then moved onto blogs with Millionaire Mommy Next Door, which was well written and not focused on moms. I think I found a link there for ERE. I liked what Jacob wrote about and how he wrote, so I stayed for quite a while.
Combining the above with a hate or at least displeasure with traditional jobs, I moved my definition of "enough savings" past the 10% norm, but short of ERE. ER is good for me.
My first information stop was magazines (Money, Fortune, Smart Money, Individual Investor, etc.). This took care of the "put 10% in your 401k and diversify" advice.
I then moved onto blogs with Millionaire Mommy Next Door, which was well written and not focused on moms. I think I found a link there for ERE. I liked what Jacob wrote about and how he wrote, so I stayed for quite a while.
Combining the above with a hate or at least displeasure with traditional jobs, I moved my definition of "enough savings" past the 10% norm, but short of ERE. ER is good for me.
Like others I had frugal parents, but if they would have had any influence in my attitudes toward money it would have been the opposite (short story - mother & stepfather would be stingy with money, yet try to demean me for watching my spending - <sarcasm> wonderful role models </sarcasm>. My grandmother was frugal and showed how to do it with grace. But as for an ah-ha moment, it was probably one of my (now ex) wife's spending binges when she re-loaded on debt after we had paid off her prior episode. I knew things had to change if I was ever going to retire (early or not), and I was determined to make it happen.
Over time I have kept on learning, mostly via various finance blogs and found this blog 3(?) years ago. While I could probably leave my current job (if I had to), just knowing I am no longer a slave to the job has made working there so much better.
Over time I have kept on learning, mostly via various finance blogs and found this blog 3(?) years ago. While I could probably leave my current job (if I had to), just knowing I am no longer a slave to the job has made working there so much better.
I think it was a disire to live on my own terms and a general dislike of authoritarian structures like employers. I don't want to rent myself out for a wage, to be told when to get up, what orders to follow and how I should spend my time. Only today when reading this thread I overheard a manager telling a complaining colleague that if she 'didn't like it she can leave' and reminded her 'she was at the bottom of the pile here' . I couldn't work without fuck you money. I've no problem with work in itself, but it's how I work I want the choice of.
Reading in a paper about a frugal couple, who had made a winter-mantle to wear inside their house to save on heating, lead to reading their adaptation of YMOYL for the Netherlands. And then we started to practise what we read because the idea of freedom to choose your life was waving its ogling spell.
I'm just beginning my journey (heck, I registered just to respond to this thread 
) but I've ghosted here for a while.
Over the last year, things haven't exactly gone as envisioned at my job as a software developer. Restructuring, unhappy investors, departing legions of trusted coworkers. I love creating software, but the "overhead" in industry has been killing me. I concluded I don't really want to put in a lifetime of this, helpless to ignore the cries of politicking executives and supporting those who think of nothing but their careers.
The best part was when I realized many of the things I want to do in life don't require much money. I was already saving ~50% of my net income prior to discovering ERE, I just simply didn't want much in the way of material things. The concept of early retirement however, beyond winning the "startup company" lottery, wasn't really there in my mind.
I loved the concept but I wasn't really sure until recently on whether I could do it or not. Then I realized I have been called crazy my whole life, not because I feel I do "crazy" things, but simply because others have observed I have rejected many common norms that they cherish. Why not one more? I'm sure my friends/family will tolerate it.
) but I've ghosted here for a while.Over the last year, things haven't exactly gone as envisioned at my job as a software developer. Restructuring, unhappy investors, departing legions of trusted coworkers. I love creating software, but the "overhead" in industry has been killing me. I concluded I don't really want to put in a lifetime of this, helpless to ignore the cries of politicking executives and supporting those who think of nothing but their careers.
The best part was when I realized many of the things I want to do in life don't require much money. I was already saving ~50% of my net income prior to discovering ERE, I just simply didn't want much in the way of material things. The concept of early retirement however, beyond winning the "startup company" lottery, wasn't really there in my mind.
I loved the concept but I wasn't really sure until recently on whether I could do it or not. Then I realized I have been called crazy my whole life, not because I feel I do "crazy" things, but simply because others have observed I have rejected many common norms that they cherish. Why not one more? I'm sure my friends/family will tolerate it
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Last edited by slsdly on Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
@Seneca - I don't want to hijack this excellent thread on my first week here, but it's not a startup (often compared but not at all). I haven't the foggiest on what people would normally have to enjoy a startup, but I reached 6 figures net worth perhaps 2-3 (??) years ago (I had a good starting point though....).
There were three turning points:
1) Shortly after I graduated college and got my first job I found myself in an exasperating catch 22 where I needed a car to get to work, a job to afford that car, and time away from work to visit the DMV and register it. The circularity of the whole thing, and the fact that I didn't have any of these problems a month prior, was starkly obvious.
2) During grad school I got a lucrative internship at a famous Silicon Valley company. I saw what my salary was going to be and, on a lark, decided to try to keep as much as possible of it. I had something like a 80% savings rate, for no reason other than to prove I could.
3) During the orientation for that job I learned that I'd be throwing money away unless I signed up for the 401k. When I logged into that for the first time I could tell I was uninformed --- all the fund names sounded like synonyms (growth, income, yield, appreciation, etc.). That sparked an intense self-study into investing, through which I learned about sustainable withdraw rates.
1) Shortly after I graduated college and got my first job I found myself in an exasperating catch 22 where I needed a car to get to work, a job to afford that car, and time away from work to visit the DMV and register it. The circularity of the whole thing, and the fact that I didn't have any of these problems a month prior, was starkly obvious.
2) During grad school I got a lucrative internship at a famous Silicon Valley company. I saw what my salary was going to be and, on a lark, decided to try to keep as much as possible of it. I had something like a 80% savings rate, for no reason other than to prove I could.
3) During the orientation for that job I learned that I'd be throwing money away unless I signed up for the 401k. When I logged into that for the first time I could tell I was uninformed --- all the fund names sounded like synonyms (growth, income, yield, appreciation, etc.). That sparked an intense self-study into investing, through which I learned about sustainable withdraw rates.
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Beaudacious
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:59 pm
- Contact:
My parents' views on money and my first post college job.
My mother has been in debt since before I was born. My father was a saver, but his business had its ups and downs, and we went through some lean times. I never really thought money was an issue until I saw behind the curtain. I vowed to finish school with zero debt.
I started saving 10% through my first 401k, living in a nice apartment, driving a decent car, and thought I was ahead of the game. But I had no personal time on my weekdays due to a long commute, and my weekends left me broke because I would spend to make up for my lost time. Work was... work. Saving 10% didn't feel like I was doing enough. So I read tons of personal finance books on my off time, learned the equations and the reasoning behind them, and searched for creative ways to manipulate variables.
My mother has been in debt since before I was born. My father was a saver, but his business had its ups and downs, and we went through some lean times. I never really thought money was an issue until I saw behind the curtain. I vowed to finish school with zero debt.
I started saving 10% through my first 401k, living in a nice apartment, driving a decent car, and thought I was ahead of the game. But I had no personal time on my weekdays due to a long commute, and my weekends left me broke because I would spend to make up for my lost time. Work was... work. Saving 10% didn't feel like I was doing enough. So I read tons of personal finance books on my off time, learned the equations and the reasoning behind them, and searched for creative ways to manipulate variables.
Interesting thread! (Apologies in advance for the long post to follow).
I am not ERE. However, I have been semi-retired since my early 20s.
We never had much money growing up. Mostly lay-away and dept. store charge cards to get by each year. I Didn't graduate high-school. I checked out at the beginning of my second semester of my senior year having thrown my arms up in total frustration with how bored I was, how bored my teachers were and how much peer pressure there was not to be "a brain". I was cutting classes because I loved the freedom my motorcycle gave me to ride all over town (San Jose, CA). Since I loved mechanics, I quit school to pursue my auto-mechanic skills.
What prompted that decision? I had bought my first car (1964 Dodge Wagon) from my uncle for $200, and when it stranded me at 16 in another town while visiting friends, I realized I was helpless and totally dependent on others to get it running. I didn't like that feeling and vowed to change that.
Later, I did full-time work on and off as an auto-mechanic, "Inoculator Technician" at a mushroom spawning company (a job I hated), and an aircraft (crop dusting planes) assemblyman (a job I really liked), and a janitor. It was during one of my auto-mechanic jobs at about 19 years old that I became jealous of the shop owner because I often observed his cronies stop by and pick him up to go out for coffee and donuts at ANY hour of the day he wanted while I slaved away under the hood of whatever car I happened to be working on. I wanted THAT freedom.
This desire was further deepened while I worked at my other jobs that I was going to spend 8-9 hours a day, every day for the better part of my adult life making a pittance. The 'salt in the open wound' occurred when, while working as an "Inoculator Technician", I asked for a couple of days off way in advance and being given permission to attend a special event only to have upper management attempt to deny me that time off at the last minute. I had to fight for that time off. That was it! I would not be a slave to one location, making low wages and unable to enjoy the wonders of the world around me. Additionally, I wanted to get married and could not support a wife on little more than minimum wage.
Much to my future mother-in-law's chagrin, I announced that I was going to quit my job and start my own business--A Janitorial Service.
Being super young, I did all I could to increase the odds at success by reading business books and observing what other business owners did. As I started to amass more cleaning contracts, I observed what those businesses did to market themselves and build their image and proceeded to imitate the positive practices I observed in many of the businesses I cleaned.
At 23 years old (1983 and now married) I was pulling in 6k monthly and was able to buy just about anything I wanted. Furthermore, I could take time out during the day to do just about anything I wanted, (even to drink coffee and eat donuts)
Bottom line...I was essentially free!
I've started (and sold) a couple of janitorial companies since that humble beginning (I forgot to mention I carried my broom, mop, etc on my Yamaha 125 Enduro to get to my first cleaning accounts).
We now own multiple rental houses and our company pulls in roughly 400k annually. Much of the freedom we've enjoyed is due in large part to controlling the growth of our business so that the business didn't control us. Our managers, quality control personnel and 18 part-time employees give us the freedom I yearned for since my late teens. Over the years, we've travelled extensively, lived in Costa Rica for three years, speak fluent Spanish, etc...
FREEDOM! That was my motivator. While I always anticipate working a few hours a week, I can take off when I want, and travel where I want. It's been this way for the better part of nearly 30 years now. I guess that's fairly extreme, even if not early retirement extreme.
I am not ERE. However, I have been semi-retired since my early 20s.
We never had much money growing up. Mostly lay-away and dept. store charge cards to get by each year. I Didn't graduate high-school. I checked out at the beginning of my second semester of my senior year having thrown my arms up in total frustration with how bored I was, how bored my teachers were and how much peer pressure there was not to be "a brain". I was cutting classes because I loved the freedom my motorcycle gave me to ride all over town (San Jose, CA). Since I loved mechanics, I quit school to pursue my auto-mechanic skills.
What prompted that decision? I had bought my first car (1964 Dodge Wagon) from my uncle for $200, and when it stranded me at 16 in another town while visiting friends, I realized I was helpless and totally dependent on others to get it running. I didn't like that feeling and vowed to change that.
Later, I did full-time work on and off as an auto-mechanic, "Inoculator Technician" at a mushroom spawning company (a job I hated), and an aircraft (crop dusting planes) assemblyman (a job I really liked), and a janitor. It was during one of my auto-mechanic jobs at about 19 years old that I became jealous of the shop owner because I often observed his cronies stop by and pick him up to go out for coffee and donuts at ANY hour of the day he wanted while I slaved away under the hood of whatever car I happened to be working on. I wanted THAT freedom.
This desire was further deepened while I worked at my other jobs that I was going to spend 8-9 hours a day, every day for the better part of my adult life making a pittance. The 'salt in the open wound' occurred when, while working as an "Inoculator Technician", I asked for a couple of days off way in advance and being given permission to attend a special event only to have upper management attempt to deny me that time off at the last minute. I had to fight for that time off. That was it! I would not be a slave to one location, making low wages and unable to enjoy the wonders of the world around me. Additionally, I wanted to get married and could not support a wife on little more than minimum wage.
Much to my future mother-in-law's chagrin, I announced that I was going to quit my job and start my own business--A Janitorial Service.
Being super young, I did all I could to increase the odds at success by reading business books and observing what other business owners did. As I started to amass more cleaning contracts, I observed what those businesses did to market themselves and build their image and proceeded to imitate the positive practices I observed in many of the businesses I cleaned.
At 23 years old (1983 and now married) I was pulling in 6k monthly and was able to buy just about anything I wanted. Furthermore, I could take time out during the day to do just about anything I wanted, (even to drink coffee and eat donuts)
Bottom line...I was essentially free!I've started (and sold) a couple of janitorial companies since that humble beginning (I forgot to mention I carried my broom, mop, etc on my Yamaha 125 Enduro to get to my first cleaning accounts).
We now own multiple rental houses and our company pulls in roughly 400k annually. Much of the freedom we've enjoyed is due in large part to controlling the growth of our business so that the business didn't control us. Our managers, quality control personnel and 18 part-time employees give us the freedom I yearned for since my late teens. Over the years, we've travelled extensively, lived in Costa Rica for three years, speak fluent Spanish, etc...
FREEDOM! That was my motivator. While I always anticipate working a few hours a week, I can take off when I want, and travel where I want. It's been this way for the better part of nearly 30 years now. I guess that's fairly extreme, even if not early retirement extreme.
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numbersmom
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Tue May 22, 2012 1:51 pm
Wow! It's tough to post after a story like that.
I have a STEM degree and got a good job after college. My parents were always good with money but didn't discuss it at home. I made a nice salary and didn't spend much so I automatically saved and invested.
But after I got married and started having kids, we went into debt. I have always understood numbers but I never really was able to stick to a budget. Then came the internet and personal finance blogs and I realized that there was more than one way to keep track of your finances.
Now both my husband and I are semi retired. We don't make enough from his pension to cover all of our costs, but we can easily make expenses with some low pressure part time jobs. The only debt we have right now is the mortage which is a 15 yr at 3.25%.
I have a STEM degree and got a good job after college. My parents were always good with money but didn't discuss it at home. I made a nice salary and didn't spend much so I automatically saved and invested.
But after I got married and started having kids, we went into debt. I have always understood numbers but I never really was able to stick to a budget. Then came the internet and personal finance blogs and I realized that there was more than one way to keep track of your finances.
Now both my husband and I are semi retired. We don't make enough from his pension to cover all of our costs, but we can easily make expenses with some low pressure part time jobs. The only debt we have right now is the mortage which is a 15 yr at 3.25%.
Great topic. Inspiring.
I grew up in what many would consider a low-income neighborhood, but never felt deprived -- rather, I generally felt lucky for all I had. I earned a scholarship to a private college in the most expensive part of town, and that was my first exposure to the fact that I was "poor" compared to the average middle-class college kid. Who knew?
Fast-forward 12 years or so, and I was living the dream to most of my friends -- living and working in Silicon Valley "doing what I love" designing well-known consumer products. When my first company was run my a megalomaniac, I found another with good friends. Then I became depressed by all the travel required and noticed how it was also damaging my marriage, so I found another. Awesome product -- commercials were made, awards were anticipated, and the entire team was summarily fired when the overseas executives changed direction, so I found another. Fantastic pay, but mind-numbing work and back to that travel again. Found another. Somewhere in between throwing back a few too many beers with coworkers discussing whether the owner was misappropriating money and how long the company will last, my wife had me read Work Less Live More and bookmarked ERE and MMM for me. Changed my life.
I was happy back in my "poor" neighborhood doing nothing more than riding my bike through the back alleys during the hot summers, playing basketball with the guys next door, and watching movies at the homes of friends. Was I happier now? When the hell did my dreams involve repeated abuse by companies just not that into me? Somewhere along the line I lost my way, and the concept of ERE helped get me back on track.
"Do what you love" means a lot more once you strip away the false assumption that "what you love" = "full time job". I'm working on redirecting that identity now.
I grew up in what many would consider a low-income neighborhood, but never felt deprived -- rather, I generally felt lucky for all I had. I earned a scholarship to a private college in the most expensive part of town, and that was my first exposure to the fact that I was "poor" compared to the average middle-class college kid. Who knew?
Fast-forward 12 years or so, and I was living the dream to most of my friends -- living and working in Silicon Valley "doing what I love" designing well-known consumer products. When my first company was run my a megalomaniac, I found another with good friends. Then I became depressed by all the travel required and noticed how it was also damaging my marriage, so I found another. Awesome product -- commercials were made, awards were anticipated, and the entire team was summarily fired when the overseas executives changed direction, so I found another. Fantastic pay, but mind-numbing work and back to that travel again. Found another. Somewhere in between throwing back a few too many beers with coworkers discussing whether the owner was misappropriating money and how long the company will last, my wife had me read Work Less Live More and bookmarked ERE and MMM for me. Changed my life.
I was happy back in my "poor" neighborhood doing nothing more than riding my bike through the back alleys during the hot summers, playing basketball with the guys next door, and watching movies at the homes of friends. Was I happier now? When the hell did my dreams involve repeated abuse by companies just not that into me? Somewhere along the line I lost my way, and the concept of ERE helped get me back on track.
"Do what you love" means a lot more once you strip away the false assumption that "what you love" = "full time job". I'm working on redirecting that identity now.
I am probably in the minority here, but I gain a lot of satisifaction from my job. I do not have long burning desire to get-away-from-it-at-all-costs.
I have relocated many times for my job and many of my friends tell me they don't understand how or why I do it. I started doing it to earn more money and move to higher positions of responsibility and pay.
But looking back on it, moving to different areas of the country has been a blessing. I have seen and experienced different cultures, different types of food, different languages, different lifestyles, cultures, etc. Without my long term steady job this would have been unlikely.
I certainly could have done a better job of saving and planning for the future, but I really didn't know it was possible. I have begun implementing the parts of the strategy that I can. I have been increasing savings while focusing on reducing debt. I'm only a few weeks in, but I have a game plan at this point and that is more than I had 3 weeks ago.
I have relocated many times for my job and many of my friends tell me they don't understand how or why I do it. I started doing it to earn more money and move to higher positions of responsibility and pay.
But looking back on it, moving to different areas of the country has been a blessing. I have seen and experienced different cultures, different types of food, different languages, different lifestyles, cultures, etc. Without my long term steady job this would have been unlikely.
I certainly could have done a better job of saving and planning for the future, but I really didn't know it was possible. I have begun implementing the parts of the strategy that I can. I have been increasing savings while focusing on reducing debt. I'm only a few weeks in, but I have a game plan at this point and that is more than I had 3 weeks ago.
I guess I'm late to the party here.
I started to get unhappy about 1 year-18 months after graduating from college. I had a job, but it was setting in that there were no demarcations in life after graduation, and naively I thought "well, I have 40 years of this, and then 10 years of retirement, and then I'm dead." I was (and still am) working 50-55 hours per week and just felt exhausted. I didn't have the energy for a life, was losing college friends, and started to put on a bit of weight - I had the 'first year of work 15'. Finally, I had no idea where my money was going and felt totally out of control of my finances. Like they were a sieve and I couldn't plug all the wholes. That was immensely depressing.
I'd always saved, aimlessly, even as a teenager. Now, though, I was making about $70k and saving probably 25%. I wasn't investing and had no goals for the money. The most I ever wanted to buy was parts for a new computer, and books. I just felt guilty spending much money.
I don't remember how I found out about ERE (probably one of the other popular personal finance blogs), but I read through almost the whole ERE blog archives and got the book for Christmas. I was able to cut spending about 40% in a month, and that coupled with some serious raises meant I was able to put away 60-75%, and this time with a purpose.
And that's pretty much it.
I started to get unhappy about 1 year-18 months after graduating from college. I had a job, but it was setting in that there were no demarcations in life after graduation, and naively I thought "well, I have 40 years of this, and then 10 years of retirement, and then I'm dead." I was (and still am) working 50-55 hours per week and just felt exhausted. I didn't have the energy for a life, was losing college friends, and started to put on a bit of weight - I had the 'first year of work 15'. Finally, I had no idea where my money was going and felt totally out of control of my finances. Like they were a sieve and I couldn't plug all the wholes. That was immensely depressing.
I'd always saved, aimlessly, even as a teenager. Now, though, I was making about $70k and saving probably 25%. I wasn't investing and had no goals for the money. The most I ever wanted to buy was parts for a new computer, and books. I just felt guilty spending much money.
I don't remember how I found out about ERE (probably one of the other popular personal finance blogs), but I read through almost the whole ERE blog archives and got the book for Christmas. I was able to cut spending about 40% in a month, and that coupled with some serious raises meant I was able to put away 60-75%, and this time with a purpose.
And that's pretty much it.
Sometimes life is hard. Everything poses a challenge and there are obstacles to overcome. You have to develop a certain amount of grit to overcome the everyday challenges in your life.
Sometimes life is sending us a message. Life's messages are subtle, indiscreet, and often posing as an everyday challenge.
An important skill in life is knowing the difference between a challenge and a message. We can often fall into a pattern of bull-headed, hell bent forward thinking when we should be taking heed of the message life is sending us and do something different...
Sometimes life is sending us a message. Life's messages are subtle, indiscreet, and often posing as an everyday challenge.
An important skill in life is knowing the difference between a challenge and a message. We can often fall into a pattern of bull-headed, hell bent forward thinking when we should be taking heed of the message life is sending us and do something different...
I have always been a bit of an outsider I think, even when I wanted to fit in with herd when I was younger I just felt different and peers thought so too. I am definitely a tree hugger so was all about the cause and saving people (I am a social worker) and didn’t savvy up to financial issues until reading about downsizing by happenchance about 10 years ago. I was in a very stressful job and was burnt out and couldn’t see a way out of what felt like my living hell. Then I read Your Money or Your Life about maybe 6 years ago and it blew me away. I hadn’t realised until then that people with not a lot of money could be financially independent- by saving and living frugally off the interest. I will never be a high roller investment wise but this little piece of information gave me the hope and the beginnings to work out an escape route. Living frugally naturally lead to voluntary simplicity and frugal pass times and these were very healing for me. The peace I discovered further fuelled my desire to grow this life style. It hasn’t been easy (I was very in the closet about living like this for ages) mainly because of my own self confining thinking and I look back now and think why did I give a f*** about what they thought about my life style etc. Anyhow add to this mix becoming a grandmother and it pushed me over into extreme frugality. The one statement that triggered becoming extreme (although my Asian friends would not think it extreme just normal it’s my western consumer friends that would see it as odd) was learning that it was possible that we could fish all the fish out of the ocean in my life time (I was a fish eating vego then and after 32 years became a meat eater with insight f what vego was doing to the planet too- confusing need to write a PHD to explain this one..) and how would I front up to my grandchildren and admit that I stood by and did nothing. Anyhow you might get the picture that this subject is very emotional for me lol! I’ll stop ranting and go back to my garden : )