Convincing anyone to change requires a vision of where to go, a plan for getting there, and dissatisfaction with their current situation. If we take the last one for granted, I suggest focusing either on refining the vision of what could eventually be ... or talking more about the first steps to go in the right direction. .
Do we really take dissatisfaction for granted when discussing ERE with people? Does everyone here draw their inspiration from their own dissatisfaction?
I used to focus on the negative stuff too (preppers excel at that lol), but now I find I make the greatest strides/leaps forward when building upon previous successes. I draw the most energy from my wins as it were; negative energy only gets me so far. I don't need to feel dissatisfied to have the motivation to make improvements or changes. Am I alone in that?
In my ERE orbit IRL, dissatisfaction hasn't been the biggest motivator. Seeing us happy, un-worried about current events, and sharing our abundance has drawn in the most people. Kind of like "I'll have what she's having." TBH, I've made more progress in the last couple of years (IRL) than I did in the previous 10 wrt my own ERE orbit after I shifted to positive message.
I used to focus on the negative stuff too (preppers excel at that lol), but now I find I make the greatest strides/leaps forward when building upon previous successes. I draw the most energy from my wins as it were; negative energy only gets me so far. I don't need to feel dissatisfied to have the motivation to make improvements or changes. Am I alone in that?
There's a difference between "change" and "growth". There's no reason to change if you're satisfied with your current internal and external life. So in that sense, changing something I think does require dissatisfaction. Moving forward once you already have momentum in the direction you want to go is different. It seems to me you're talking about the latter,
In my ERE orbit IRL, dissatisfaction hasn't been the biggest motivator. Seeing us happy, un-worried about current events, and sharing our abundance has drawn in the most people. Kind of like "I'll have what she's having." TBH, I've made more progress in the last couple of years (IRL) than I did in the previous 10 wrt my own ERE orbit after I shifted to positive message.
Here again I think you're mixing your satisfaction and/or your messaging with others' dissatisfaction. Who would have what you're having if they're satisfied with what they're already having? Whether you're a more effective proselytizer as a happy satisfied messenger or an unhappy unsatisfied messenger is ... perhaps obvious? But the happiest christian missionary of any stripe has zero chance of converting me unless my soil is already fertile and ready for planting, so to speak.
Maybe one way to think about this is to imagine that there is a scale from "drastically lacking" to "good enough" to "best known" to "best there can be".
Dissatisfaction is when you don't even have something "good enough". You want to go from "lacking" to "good enough". Satisfaction is being at "good enough" or beyond. Notice that even when you are satisfied there is something you could go for in the beyond which may be fun to do even if you don't really need to.
Then we can restate jp's post as saying "You don't have to be motivated by lacking/dissatisfaction, you can be motivated by moving closer to "best possible" from "good enough." And the latter orientation feels better and gets you further."
Not to put words in jp's mouth. This is my interpretation.
In general, I don't think that to want something else means you have to be dissatisfied with what you have. It might be curiosity about what else is there even if what you have is enough. Or maybe you just see value in summiting a peak even if you also accept that staying at your current location would be fine too.
There's a difference between "change" and "growth". There's no reason to change if you're satisfied with your current internal and external life. So in that sense, changing something I think does require dissatisfaction.
What is the difference between the two terms? Degree? Direction? Is leveling up in a skillset changing or growing? Stupid example ... if I'm happy pruning my tomatoes one way, and then I see someone doing it another way that looks more successful and I copy it, am I changing or growing? If it's only semantics, it's not worth arguing. But maybe it's something else I'm not grokking about what you said.
On your second point, I'm not sure the christian analogy holds because one can get through life without religion. With ERE, I think there's assumption that we're all playing the same game. We all fit somewhere on the ERE Wheaton Scale.
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I guess I find it odd that there's an assumption that only dissatisfied people would be drawn to ERE. If true, it seems like a terminal flaw because people will lose interest as soon as the initial dissatisfaction is addressed.
What is the difference between the two terms? Degree? Direction? Is leveling up in a skillset changing or growing? Stupid example ... if I'm happy pruning my tomatoes one way, and then I see someone doing it another way that looks more successful and I copy it, am I changing or growing? If it's only semantics, it's not worth arguing. But maybe it's something else I'm not grokking about what you said.
The difference is that there's a zero-point somewhere along this scale. The zero-point marks the difference between "doing differently" and "doing better". Those who are dissatisfied are willing to try something that is different in kind (different direction), basically changing. Those who are satisfied are more focused on tweaking a difference in degree (optimizing for the same direction), basically growing.
Much of the original ERE message was about "changing" one's quadrant from "salaryman" to "renaissanceman"... not about "growing" within one's quadrant.
Both are valid pursuits, but they're quite different in kind.
I guess I find it odd that there's an assumption that only dissatisfied people would be drawn to ERE. If true, it seems like a terminal flaw because people will lose interest as soon as the initial dissatisfaction is addressed.
From the book:
Motivation depends on the individual too. For instance, I'm motivated by avoiding negative outcomes such as feeling bad. Others are motivated by striving for positive outcomes such as feeling good... if you feel differently about change, modify my approach to suit your personality accordingly.
To me, I read this that ERE does not assume only dissatisfied people will be drawn to ERE. It recognizes that Dissatisfaction is a factor for many people but not all and not in all circumstances at equal amounts.
I read the DVP model as "If you want to change but aren't, examine these three variables. One of them is probably not sufficient to overcome the barrier to change."
Perhaps the issue is you need more Dissatisfaction. Perhaps you need a better plan, or a stronger vision, instead.
I guess I find it odd that there's an assumption that only dissatisfied people would be drawn to ERE. If true, it seems like a terminal flaw because people will lose interest as soon as the initial dissatisfaction is addressed.
Agree with this and the idea that it also limits the audience because if people aren't dissatisfied with their lives, then why would they pursue ERE? I think that speaks to the fact that most of the obvious carrot vectors for ERE/FIRE are freedom-from oriented, whereas I think the most powerful (and hardest to convey)is the freedom-to aspect and the ability to define a life on your own terms. I strongly believe positive examples of what you can become work better (in terms of reaching a larger audience and effecting change) than trying to convince someone that their current lifestyle is wrong.
The art of marketing is creating a need or want in the targeted audience that results in a change from their current state. Some of it rests on people being dissatisfied with their lives, while others create the image of an even better lifestyle. If you are already satisfied with your life and find something to make it even more satisfying, does that create a sense of dissatisfaction with regards to your previous lifestyle? If so, then perhaps dissatisfaction doesn't need to be long term and the sense can be cultivated after the fact.
Yes. But unfortunately change never changes the dissatisfaction as much as you thought. Doesn't mean it's not a worthwhile endeavor but it only goes so far.
To me, "change" is a big or drastic change (difference in kind?) while perhaps we could use "adjustment" or "growth" to be a small, incremental change (difference in degree?). I change from being an atheist to being theistic. I grow from being a catholic to being a protestant. Is it just semantics? I don't think so. Is it just relative? Isn't everything? But I think there probably is a correlative mapping of the depth of the dissatisfaction to the degree of the change. Deep dissatisfaction often will yield the most drastic changes. Being deeply dissatisfied with your tomatoes may cause you to abandon gardening; being slightly dissatisfied may cause you to see a different way of gardening to be "more successful" (i.e., that you didn't have dissatisfaction until you saw someone doing it "more successfully" is perhaps the very definition of what it means to be human). In either case, there is dissatisfaction, large or small. Else, if you were fully satisfied in your gardening, why would you ever try something different? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Further, I think dissatisfaction is not "inspiration" as much as "motivation". In jacob's quote, I think the "inspiration" would be in the vision. In this respect, deep dissatisfaction may cause a person to seek change without have a destination (a vision). Take my divorce for example. I just jumped off the fucking cliff without knowing where the ground was - no parachute; no plan; nothing. A slight dissatisfaction would have just involved some tinkering - some therapy, some date nights, some schedule adjustments.
So I don't think it's that only dissatisfied people will be drawn to ere. I think dissatisfaction generates the motivation to start looking for something different. But if you're already "ere adjacent", you can certainly be "inspired" by ere's vision to take that next incremental step (i.e., you think what you're doing is good, and then you see something that you think might be better becoming in the process "dissatisfied" with what you had). But still, if you're perfectly happy where you are, you could learn about ere and say "sounds interesting, but I'm good".
Further, I think dissatisfaction is not "inspiration" as much as "motivation".
I like the heuristic. Yesterday I stumbled upon another anecdotal account of a middle class family's slide into abject poverty. Middle age guy, dead dreams, medical bills, painkillers, selling scrap. Didn't have $5.00 to give to his daughter. Chasing the ghost of a non-existent life insurance policy his father didn't sign. All of the tropes. It stated that 25% of all Americans die with negative worth which I found interesting. Anyhoos, the "I need to remind myself I was there" motivation I try to take from these accounts felt forced and disingenuous. Almost self-indulgent. It was really just poverty porn. I am not there. I am far away from it actually and yes I could end up there again by the grace of God go I blah blah blah but my point is it felt like I was pushing a rock up a hill that I no longer need to push. Motivation got me here but in some non-positive sense it could keep me here.
Another analogy might be how tutoring is often bimodal between the freedom-from F-students, who are looking to pass, and freedom-to A-students, who are looking for a perfect score.
There’s also boredom and curiosity to consider. Humans are more or less innately programmed to sometimes seek out change for the sake of change. We’re explorers of our environments and also out-breeders. Only the Hobbit within us is likely to be satisfied with just the “cottage” portion of Adventure Cottage Library ideal lifestyle.
OTOH, there are those who believe that the downward slide of all morality began with allowing females access to coffee and novels.
